Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
actually it is. if you want to win multiple SBs at least.

i like Brady, i think he's the GOAT. but he didn't do it on his own.

overall, as long as the NFL has the forward pass, the guy who can sit in the pocket and read a defense very well and make great throws, will always be the king. now don't get that twisted by thinking that im saying that you need a pure pocket passer. you can still be a great athlete and still have the ability to be a great pocket QB. (i think Fields can be that guy)

but just because Mac isn't as athletic as Pat or Fields, doesn't mean he can't be great. #1 attribute is still throwing the football...

yeah that's not even close to true.

go watch the SB game vs KC, Mahomes had to make a play to win it, he had to extend and play off structure... Go watch Matt Ryan not being able to make a play because someone missed a block in the SB. That's two lost SBs for Kyle.

it's every week dude...Brady wouldn't have even made it to the SB if King didn't make a boneheaded play for the Packers. He was getting pressured and threw 3 INTs. he completed less than 60% of his passes in the playoffs. It was the same thing his last game in NE....Titans could get pressure up the middle and he played awful.

Go look at Goff, he's a great in the pocket rhythm passer. When everything is in structure he's actually damn good. He most certainly was a main reason they won a s**t ton of games...when things break down and he had to make plays, he sucked a fat one.

I mean just look at the QBs that give Kyle the most problems...it's not primarily the in the pocket only QB.

you get a guy that only provides one element you limit yourself and your overall offense. You're already playing from behind if the other team has someone that can do both.

I have no idea why fans wouldn't want a guy that's more than just a system QB? It's like none of you watched Steve Young? I mean did all of you not want Watson if he would have been available? Would all of you hate to have Herbert/Rogers/Watson/Wilson/Mahomes on this team? Would you rather have Kirk cousins? I mean seriously....

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
actually it is. if you want to win multiple SBs at least.

i like Brady, i think he's the GOAT. but he didn't do it on his own.

overall, as long as the NFL has the forward pass, the guy who can sit in the pocket and read a defense very well and make great throws, will always be the king. now don't get that twisted by thinking that im saying that you need a pure pocket passer. you can still be a great athlete and still have the ability to be a great pocket QB. (i think Fields can be that guy)

but just because Mac isn't as athletic as Pat or Fields, doesn't mean he can't be great. #1 attribute is still throwing the football...

yeah that's not even close to true.

go watch the SB game vs KC, Mahomes had to make a play to win it, he had to extend and play off structure... Go watch Matt Ryan not being able to make a play because someone missed a block in the SB. That's two lost SBs for Kyle.

it's every week dude...Brady wouldn't have even made it to the SB if King didn't make a boneheaded play for the Packers. He was getting pressured and threw 3 INTs. he completed less than 60% of his passes in the playoffs. It was the same thing his last game in NE....Titans could get pressure up the middle and he played awful.

Go look at Goff, he's a great in the pocket rhythm passer. When everything is in structure he's actually damn good. He most certainly was a main reason they won a s**t ton of games...when things break down and he had to make plays, he sucked a fat one.

I mean just look at the QBs that give Kyle the most problems...it's not primarily the in the pocket only QB.

you get a guy that only provides one element you limit yourself and your overall offense. You're already playing from behind if the other team has someone that can do both.

I have no idea why fans wouldn't want a guy that's more than just a system QB? It's like none of you watched Steve Young? I mean did all of you not want Watson if he would have been available? Would all of you hate to have Herbert/Rogers/Watson/Wilson/Mahomes on this team? Would you rather have Kirk cousins? I mean seriously....

to the bolded...

Brady has made it to 10 SBs, it's not luck or coincidence.

Goff is not a good QB. i've said it from day 1 that he's average. his accuracy is crap compared to a guy like Mac, let alone Brady.

did you read what i wrote? now don't get that twisted by thinking that im saying that you need a pure pocket passer. you can still be a great athlete and still have the ability to be a great pocket QB. (i think Fields can be that guy)

so obviously i want a guy who can do both, i'm just poo pooing on your opinion that you can't be successful anymore in the NFL unless you are also a great athlete.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
So good. It's all philosophical. And Greg didn't even touch on the non-athletic side of that scenario where a smart heady prepared and accurate QB can avoid getting in trouble to begin with. He was just speaking from a physical escape ability perspective. Or the QB that still has that ability but gets beat to hell and is sick of it because the team relies on it (Wilson).

So yeah, it comes down to philosophy.

And for Kyle?

What? He most certainly talked about athletic ability...he said Jones is in capable of making plays off script. He said if it's 3rd and 9 and let's say McG gets blown up that play is dead...Jones can't NOT make up for that.

If Donald beats a guy, it's over. If Ramsey locks down his first read, it's done. Have we not seen this already with Jimmy and every other QB thrown back there?

I love how he brought up Brady and the GB game, Brady had 3 TOs...his OL broke down on one and all he could do was throw it up because his incapable of doing anything else.

IF you want Mac you're looking for pristine play from all 11 people over and over...you're asking everyone on offense to win on every play in order for everything to work consistently. That is NOT the reality of how the NFL works. This isn't a situation of our team is 10X better then your team every week.

And you missed the other half of it where that's perfectly fine because of the system (execution). Where an OC is fine with that if that player fits the system and executes the offense as he wants.

He's literally giving you one example of a physical trait as a scenario where even he, grapples with because both can still be wildly successful and it comes down to individual philosophy.

He does hit on one of the biggest advantages of having a mobile qb and one of the biggest disadvantages of having a pocket passer.

I will say he doesn't mention some of the other major positives and negatives for both of them.

He does bring up a good point as to the debate of a pocket passer vs Mobile QB and How teams feel about them. It seems like it comes down to if you want a guy who goes off script or if you want a guy who stays on script. There are positive and negatives for both. So which one of these does Kyle want? I think he wants a stay on script player. Maybe, he has changed his view. But everything I have ever been led to believe about him is he wants a on script QB running his system exactly how he has designed it.

Originally posted by Bloodless:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
So good. It's all philosophical. And Greg didn't even touch on the non-athletic side of that scenario where a smart heady prepared and accurate QB can avoid getting in trouble to begin with. He was just speaking from a physical escape ability perspective. Or the QB that still has that ability but gets beat to hell and is sick of it because the team relies on it (Wilson).

So yeah, it comes down to philosophy.

And for Kyle?

What? He most certainly talked about athletic ability...he said Jones is in capable of making plays off script. He said if it's 3rd and 9 and let's say McG gets blown up that play is dead...Jones can't NOT make up for that.

If Donald beats a guy, it's over. If Ramsey locks down his first read, it's done. Have we not seen this already with Jimmy and every other QB thrown back there?

I love how he brought up Brady and the GB game, Brady had 3 TOs...his OL broke down on one and all he could do was throw it up because his incapable of doing anything else.

IF you want Mac you're looking for pristine play from all 11 people over and over...you're asking everyone on offense to win on every play in order for everything to work consistently. That is NOT the reality of how the NFL works. This isn't a situation of our team is 10X better then your team every week.

And you missed the other half of it where that's perfectly fine because of the system (execution). Where an OC is fine with that if that player fits the system and executes the offense as he wants.

He's literally giving you one example of a physical trait as a scenario where even he, grapples with because both can still be wildly successful and it comes down to individual philosophy.

He does hit on one of the biggest advantages of having a mobile qb and one of the biggest disadvantages of having a pocket passer.

I will say he doesn't mention some of the other major positives and negatives for both of them.

He does bring up a good point as to the debate of a pocket passer vs Mobile QB and How teams feel about them. It seems like it comes down to if you want a guy who goes off script or if you want a guy who stays on script. There are positive and negatives for both. So which one of these does Kyle want? I think he wants a stay on script player. Maybe, he has changed his view. But everything I have ever been led to believe about him is he wants a on script QB running his system exactly how he has designed it.

Yeah, he's right but he was specifically answering the question on which HE preferred, to which he said he grapples with that (as he still sees benefits to both) to this day.

Clearly, you got the rest of that down well too.

Kyle's had some poor luck. He gets an athletic QB in RGIII and he's hurt every other play going off script. He gets a pocket passer in Garoppolo and he gets hurt off schedule and put on I.R. twice from within structure. He gets a nice balance in Matt Ryan and his C plays with a broken leg and backup RB who blow the critical pass protection.

At this point, Kyle's about to say eff-it, be the QB himself and just do jet sweeps all game long. He can't win.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

I think instinct and confidence go hand in hand. Asking a QB to do something different that what he was good at in college also could destroy his confidence and instincts. Walsh build up both Joe and Steves confidence with appropriate insertions into actual game type situations to improve their confidence. So it makes sense for NFL coaches to incorporate those college plays into their NFL playbooks.

But 5 Rings is onto what I think it really is, it's more of a feeling (this is how I'm trying to understand it) versus a kind of calculation. 5 Rings calls it some sort of vision or kenesthetic physical perception - and I agree with him, versus something like solving a math equation. I agree, you want to get a rookie QB and build up on what he has versus rebuilding him from the ground up. In Lance's case, there's a good foundation, but no built up structure yet. In Mac and Fields case there's already foundational structure, it just depends on how big a house you want to build on. Rebuilding a rookie - or in the case of Steve Young - took 6 years.

What a good phrase. Yeah, that's a pretty good description. It's intuition, instinct. Some guys have a special ability with this; most don't. Some can improve that, but again, most don't do so very much. What they DO improve upon is reading defenses and learning the playbook, and that does go along way.

Agree. To a certain extent instinct can be taught. Just like training, diet and weight training can improve somebody's strength and speed, but to a certain extent it can't be taught either.

I dont think NY85 is correct when he says *anybody* can learn to read coverages and play NFL QB. No they can't, just like you can't just go from 6.0 in the forty to 4.4 In the forty just like that. Most never will, only a very small percentage can.

Summary of the Athletic film breakdown of Jones. Tell me how this is the guy Shannahan would trade 3 firsts for.....

"Overall, Jones deals with pressure well, but he's not going to create plays when the protection breaks down. I don't believe all quarterbacks have to be out-of-structure maestros, even in today's NFL, but if you're exclusively a pocket passer, you should have amazing arm talent to make up for it. Jones is a below-average athlete with a below-average arm and very good accuracy. If you draft him in the first round, you're betting that his mind can develop into Brady or Drew Brees-like mastery, because his intelligence will ultimately be what can separate him. His physical ability gives him little room for error."

Originally posted by NCommand:
I am curious.

Is there a scenario where a less-athletic QB could be elevated into a top 5 discussion anymore? What elite less-athletic traits does one have to possess now to be considered a top 5 consideration with "elite traits" like the athletic QB's?

There is no such scenario, certainly for most people here anyway.

Originally posted by Ripamaru:
Summary of the Athletic film breakdown of Jones. Tell me how this is the guy Shannahan would trade 3 firsts for.....

"Overall, Jones deals with pressure well, but he's not going to create plays when the protection breaks down. I don't believe all quarterbacks have to be out-of-structure maestros, even in today's NFL, but if you're exclusively a pocket passer, you should have amazing arm talent to make up for it. Jones is a below-average athlete with a below-average arm and very good accuracy. If you draft him in the first round, you're betting that his mind can develop into Brady or Drew Brees-like mastery, because his intelligence will ultimately be what can separate him. His physical ability gives him little room for error."

Amen 🙏

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Rathof44:
LIke Cosell quite a bit, really don't think he ever has an agenda. Just the facts. So my take away from this excerpt is if Kyle is stubborn, he's gonna take Jones.

The biggest and most impactful thing for me that Cosell said was "When the defense tactically wins, the play is over (with Jones)." This is the biggest issue I have with Jones.

And this is exactly why I don't think Kyle is taking him...if he wanted a system QB only he didn't have to move up to 3. He could have just ran out Jimmy. He could have traded less for Kirk or Ryan imo. He could have signed Brady in the off season. He could draft Mills in the second.

What people missed was when Rich brought up kyle, Cosell started talking about Lance. He can do both things. He can run this offense AND make plays of script. He fits the whole high ceiling but needs to sit for a yr like they talked about in their presser.

Agreed. People thinking the defense is never gonna get home and Mac will be afforded the same pocket and time he had at Alabama......ain't happening.

So one related question: why do all of you assume Fields and Lance will get significantly better at quickly seeing the defense and executing (e.g., hot routes), but none of you believe Jones will? That's his strength after all -- executing. So why is it he definitely won't get significantly better at it?

So heady

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by hummbabybear:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by hummbabybear:
I'm thinking the bluff is this:
49ers outward expression of love for Mac Jones is meant to keep the other teams guessing if 49ers will select either Fields or Lance ('cause they are not picking Jones). 49ers guess is that a team out there that prefers Fields or Lance over Wilson. Since that team does not know what the 49ers will do, their only hope is to trade to #2, in which case Wilson falls to the 49ers. If Wilson is picked #2, then 49ers will pick their alternate (I think Fields).

Thats some Area 51/ grassy knoll stuff right there.

Area 51 was confirmed to be true. Well it's existence at least

Love it. 👍

I was thinking more like "...a feint within a feint within a feint..." for those of you who have read Frank Herbert's "Dune."

Lol. Nerd alert.

Originally posted by Ripamaru:
Summary of the Athletic film breakdown of Jones. Tell me how this is the guy Shannahan would trade 3 firsts for.....

"Overall, Jones deals with pressure well, but he's not going to create plays when the protection breaks down. I don't believe all quarterbacks have to be out-of-structure maestros, even in today's NFL, but if you're exclusively a pocket passer, you should have amazing arm talent to make up for it. Jones is a below-average athlete with a below-average arm and very good accuracy. If you draft him in the first round, you're betting that his mind can develop into Brady or Drew Brees-like mastery, because his intelligence will ultimately be what can separate him. His physical ability gives him little room for error."

The difference is, Shanahan thinks he can make up the difference.

Originally posted by Ripamaru:
Summary of the Athletic film breakdown of Jones. Tell me how this is the guy Shannahan would trade 3 firsts for.....

"Overall, Jones deals with pressure well, but he's not going to create plays when the protection breaks down. I don't believe all quarterbacks have to be out-of-structure maestros, even in today's NFL, but if you're exclusively a pocket passer, you should have amazing arm talent to make up for it. Jones is a below-average athlete with a below-average arm and very good accuracy. If you draft him in the first round, you're betting that his mind can develop into Brady or Drew Brees-like mastery, because his intelligence will ultimately be what can separate him. His physical ability gives him little room for error."

Below average arm? Dafuq.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I am curious.

Is there a scenario where a less-athletic QB could be elevated into a top 5 discussion anymore? What elite less-athletic traits does one have to possess now to be considered a top 5 consideration with "elite traits" like the athletic QB's?

There is no such scenario, certainly for most people here anyway.

That's my point.

Originally posted by Rathof44:
Lol. Nerd alert.