Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by krizay:
Because people keep bringing up his mobility issues despite showing he is athletic enough and has pocket mobility

His 3 cone is worse than trubisky/baker, more on par with Goff. I don't think he's a complete marino-esque statue but no he's not going to do s**t with his legs in the nfl

M.Jones 3 cone 7.04

Trubisky 3 cone 6.87
Baker 3 cone 7.00
Goff 3 cone 7.17

M.Stafford 7.06
M.Ryan 7.40
J.Cutler 7.10
K.Cousins 7.05
Jimmy G. 7.04
J.Winston 7.14
D.Prescot 7.11
J.Herbert 7.06
J.Love 7.21

Why don't you bring up how much they weigh? ALSO you're comparing pro day #s to combine #s since when is that apples to apples? We say fields actually ran a 4.5 (4.4 pro day) you better at the .1 to Jones' numbers all the same.

Combine 40 is a laser timed stat. 3 cone is hand timed.

Do you see the difference?

One is a pro day and one is at the combine.

Do you see the difference?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, you fellas need to watch Max Browne's breakdown of Fields on the whiteboard to truly understand the bold. He illustrates it perfectly and that's just not something PFF is going to capture. Mac Jones might be the best in the class by a wide margin in this aspect and should probably be weighted far heavier than 40 time and the ability to make off schedule throws.

Just watched it. Very good video and I learned a ton about Fields. Very good player and I still value him higher than Mac, but he's by no means head and shouters above Mac. Mac has different strengths and weaknesses and they offset Fields strengths and weaknesses in such a way as to really make it difficult for me to say Kyle would prefer Fields *for sure* over Mac. But if I'm convinced Kyle's moving on to a mobile QB, and leaving the Kirk Cousins model (and I think he has) he will take Fields. If not, then Mac.

Totally. It's about knowing the play call, where to go and when to throw within the concept and timing of the structure. I love his example of that because 90% of the fans don't understand that concept as it's drawn up. And that doesn't mean Fields can't learn or get better at it...it's just that Mac is far stronger at that right now. Fields may very well end up the best QB of the class down the road. It's just pointing out current strengths and weaknesses of each esp. for fans who don't understand the nuances and focus only on the physical (easier to "see").

Totally agree. I'll just add that if you have a strong run game ( and that's kyles strength as an OC) you really don't need to base a significant part of your offense on off schedule throws. Just hand the ball off to the RB instead of endangering your QB to movement playcall injuries.

A good run game calms down exotic defenses like zone blitzes and the like. It forces defenses to play base defense on first downs, and makes QB reads easier so you don't have to call boot passes often. With Kyle's outside zone runs, if (for example) you catch a defense rotating their zone the right way, a simple 5 yard run play can be a TD. A good run game married to Kyles solid passing game should get you to third and short 80%+ of the time where you may not need to call those QB movement plays more than once or twice a game.

If Kyle has 3 good recievers for the base of a triangle offense, at that point-- as long as you have a good run game-- your basic play calls (even taking out any play action passes) should be pretty much unstoppable. Kyle had that with kittle, Saunders and deebo, plus mostert in 2019 and it took another super bowl level offensive team to outscore it.

Originally posted by jcs:
Combine 40 is a laser timed stat. 3 cone is hand timed.

Do you see the difference?

One is timed by one set figure one set number, one is times by all kinds of people. Also you can't bring up athletic measurables without bringing up height/weight. Go listen to Cosell talk about Jones as an athlete. He's not Mike glennon or anything, but he's not ever gonna be athletic, he's gonna have issues moving and creating (more than he did) in the NFL.

it's a negative no matter how hard you trying to act like it won't be.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Totally agree. I'll just add that if you have a strong run game ( and that's kyles strength as an OC) you really don't need to base a significant part of your offense on off schedule throws. Just hand the ball off to the RB instead of endangering your QB to movement playcall injuries.

A good run game calms down exotic defenses like zone blitzes and the like. It forces defenses to play base defense on first downs, and makes QB reads easier so you don't have to call boot passes often. With Kyle's outside zone runs, if (for example) you catch a defense rotating their zone the right way, a simple 5 yard run play can be a TD. A good run game married to Kyles solid passing game should get you to third and short 80%+ of the time where you may not need to call those QB movement plays more than once or twice a game.

If Kyle has 3 good recievers for the base of a triangle offense, at that point-- as long as you have a good run game-- your basic play calls (even taking out any play action passes) should be pretty much unstoppable. Kyle had that with kittle, Saunders and deebo, plus mostert in 2019 and it took another super bowl level offensive team to outscore it.

Timing and structure doesn't mean s**t if a guy misses a block, a guy can't get open, or someone can't execute the play....you're asking for perfection from everyone every week on every play, which isn't reality.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Timing and structure doesn't mean s**t if a guy misses a block, a guy can't get open, or someone can't execute the play....you're asking for perfection from everyone every week on every play, which isn't reality.

I don't know why people have such a problem understanding what you said. That is what we will be dealing with every week, every year with mac

I want to know the logic by which people want Jimmy gone yet want the 49ers to take Mac Jones at #3.

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Timing and structure doesn't mean s**t if a guy misses a block, a guy can't get open, or someone can't execute the play....you're asking for perfection from everyone every week on every play, which isn't reality.

I don't know why people have such a problem understanding what you said. That is what we will be dealing with every week, every year with mac

Alabama doesn't even rely on "timing" routes. What Browne is talking about when he says "throwing on time" is correctly reading the leverage of the defender, which Jones does indeed excell at, so that he can throw the ball before the defense has an opportunity to recover. Yes, you have to understand the scheme so that you know what to look for, i.e. an outside defender getting sucked in, and over defender getting sucked up, etc, but there is very little timing within the structure in Bamas scheme. He's reading a defense and throwing according to what he is given, not according to time. Of course, his ability to do diminishes with pressure, which is why we can't annoint him the next Tom Brady. Not yet anyway.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Totally agree. I'll just add that if you have a strong run game ( and that's kyles strength as an OC) you really don't need to base a significant part of your offense on off schedule throws. Just hand the ball off to the RB instead of endangering your QB to movement playcall injuries.

A good run game calms down exotic defenses like zone blitzes and the like. It forces defenses to play base defense on first downs, and makes QB reads easier so you don't have to call boot passes often. With Kyle's outside zone runs, if (for example) you catch a defense rotating their zone the right way, a simple 5 yard run play can be a TD. A good run game married to Kyles solid passing game should get you to third and short 80%+ of the time where you may not need to call those QB movement plays more than once or twice a game.

If Kyle has 3 good recievers for the base of a triangle offense, at that point-- as long as you have a good run game-- your basic play calls (even taking out any play action passes) should be pretty much unstoppable. Kyle had that with kittle, Saunders and deebo, plus mostert in 2019 and it took another super bowl level offensive team to outscore it.

Timing and structure doesn't mean s**t if a guy misses a block, a guy can't get open, or someone can't execute the play....you're asking for perfection from everyone every week on every play, which isn't reality.

That's true for *any* offensive system, not just Kyle's.

It goes back to the philosophical question- athleticism vs intangibles. Do you want a guy that has more intangibles vs a guy that has more athleticism? So before you ask that question you have to answer how you set up your offense in the first place.

Classic extreme examples would be the Roman offense which is QB run heavy and something like the Martz offense which is a pocket QB kind of an offense. Clearly an athletic QB would benefit a Roman offense more than a Martz offense because of how its basic plays are structured. So different offensive system will put different values on those two attributes. The real question is whether or not Kyle is ready to overhaul his entire offensive scheme or not (for example) to take advantage of the QB protection friendly rules the NFL has implemented.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:
Alabama doesn't even rely on "timing" routes. What Browne is talking about when he says "throwing on time" is correctly reading the leverage of the defender, which Jones does indeed excell at, so that he can throw the ball before the defense has an opportunity to recover. Yes, you have to understand the scheme so that you know what to look for, i.e. an outside defender getting sucked in, and over defender getting sucked up, etc, but there is very little timing within the structure in Bamas scheme. He's reading a defense and throwing according to what he is given, not according to time. Of course, his ability to do diminishes with pressure, which is why we can't annoint him the next Tom Brady. Not yet anyway.

Yup THL brought this up as well.

Originally posted by Giedi:
That's true for *any* offensive system, not just Kyle's.

It goes back to the philosophical question- athleticism vs intangibles. Do you want a guy that has more intangibles vs a guy that has more athleticism? So before you ask that question you have to answer how you set up your offense in the first place.

Classic extreme examples would be the Roman offense which is QB run heavy and something like the Martz offense which is a pocket QB kind of an offense. Clearly an athletic QB would benefit a Roman offense more than a Martz offense because of how its basic plays are structured. So different offensive system will put different values on those two attributes. The real question is whether or not Kyle is ready to overhaul his entire offensive scheme or not (for example) to take advantage of the QB protection friendly rules the NFL has implemented.

my main point is there's a lot of false claims about what Jones was asked to do at Bama and what we ask our QBs to do.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
That's true for *any* offensive system, not just Kyle's.

It goes back to the philosophical question- athleticism vs intangibles. Do you want a guy that has more intangibles vs a guy that has more athleticism? So before you ask that question you have to answer how you set up your offense in the first place.

Classic extreme examples would be the Roman offense which is QB run heavy and something like the Martz offense which is a pocket QB kind of an offense. Clearly an athletic QB would benefit a Roman offense more than a Martz offense because of how its basic plays are structured. So different offensive system will put different values on those two attributes. The real question is whether or not Kyle is ready to overhaul his entire offensive scheme or not (for example) to take advantage of the QB protection friendly rules the NFL has implemented.

philosophical question- athleticism vs intangibles isn't what adrianlesnar was talking about. There's a lot of false claims about what Jones did at Bama.

I wasn't responding to adrianlesnar.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I wasn't responding to adrianlesnar.

See my edit

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I wasn't responding to adrianlesnar.

See my edit

Is max brown wrong about mac jones and Fields? That's what I'm looking at when learning about these QBs.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Is max brown wrong about mac jones and Fields? That's what I'm looking at when learning about these QBs.

I for one think he is spot on. Never watched him until just today. But I like his analysis. Didn't say anything no one else has said. Like how he showed his reasoning on the negatives though

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I wasn't responding to adrianlesnar.

See my edit

Is max brown wrong about mac jones and Fields? That's what I'm looking at when learning about these QBs.

I mean he was a Mac Jones type so he can relate better to that kind of QB.