Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by NinerBuff:
That's an interesting take OTC! If it turns out to be Mac, then there was some leak (either via Chris Simms or other). And if not, it follows Lynch's MO that there's no leaks at all.

Or there was never any leak and everyone and their uncle could see the fit with Jones in Shanahan's offense. Its why I made this thread in the first place. Go look at the first page and some of the comment there and that was back in November. You don't need some special Deepthroat level source to figure out that Shanahan would show interest in him.

Originally posted by 49ers808:
Nobody watch the QB21 with Kirk Herbstreet on Jones? Surprised it isn't being talked about. I brought it up in here before but man I can't see how some things he said doesn't rub people the wrong way. The Auburn game was brought up and he took zero ownership of the picks. He stressed multiple times that it was the right read on the first one and completely threw his FB under the bus on the 2nd one , the end zone pick six, saying and pointing out that he missed the block. While it is true, man you just don't do that

What he said was right read but he threw a bad ball. The FB play I can't argue

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by mayo49:
The biggest thing for me about Jones - is he just has to lose some weight. It'll help in his conditioning and maybe after a weight lifting program, add some velocity to his throws.

If he didn't do it before getting paid millions of dollars - unlikely he is going to do so afterwards.

He got paid millions of dollars? From whom?

Panthers

Maybe...after trading down significantly.

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by mayo49:
The biggest thing for me about Jones - is he just has to lose some weight. It'll help in his conditioning and maybe after a weight lifting program, add some velocity to his throws.

The weight issue is so overblown. People keep going back to the same photo that came from 2019. If you look at recent pics of him, he looks to be perfectly fine, especially for a pocket passer.

He doesn't have to lose a ton of weight - just tone up.

You'd think a guy who spent all that time in college would have learned to hit the weight room a little bit. It's a concern for me. I want a guy to study film and also build his physique.

What happens if, for some reason Shanny is fired? Would Jones still be good in another system? That's my issue. I want a QB that would be great in any system. I know it's not likely if we continue to Make the playoffs, but I didn't think it likely Harbaugh would be fired after his success. To me, Fields is most likely to succeed in any system.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You are aware that every single QB of all time make regular off platform throws. And you don't need to be athletic to do it. Hell, you don't even need to leave the pocket to do it.

As to PP...it needs to be improved either way as it has negative affects on both styles of QB's. That's been proven time and time again. So much so that defenses simply bring pressure differently but it still affects the QB in a negative fashion.

Now, if you're talking about off schedule plays, same concept. The 3-4 that happen every game, are run by both mobile and less athletic QB's.

You need to be able to have the arm talent to make those throws without having to reset your feet. Again Cosell said he CAN NOT do this.

some QBs need more PP to have more success. Jones and Jimmy are those type of QBs.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by roasthawg:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by roasthawg:
No I'd rather trust the guys getting paid millions to run the team who have already taken us to the sb. If whiny b***hy little fans get weeded out in the process even better as far as I'm concerned. All in on Mac

You were all in on Tomsula as well?

I definitely gave him a chance. Was super bummed to see harbaugh go as I loved that guy. But the whole thing was baalke vs harbaugh. Who was the real reason for success? I was hoping baalke would prove that it was him. Didn't turn out that way.

Anyone who was not drinking the Kool-Aid knew it was a bad pick. You don't have to wait and see sometimes. Plenty of guys get paid millions of dollars in this business - only handful are good.

Well I'm glad you got it all figured out. You could probably make a lot of money consulting owners on who their next gm/hc hires should be. As for me, I'm just a casual fan who thinks Shannahan and Lynch are an awesome combo who are going to absolutely nail this pick.

Originally posted by hello49:
I agree with NYNiner85.. Jones would be an awful pick and such a waste of a number 3 pick! 🤮

I don't think he's gonna suck, I think the other QBs are just better. It would be a massive reach.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49ers808:
Nobody watch the QB21 with Kirk Herbstreet on Jones? Surprised it isn't being talked about. I brought it up in here before but man I can't see how some things he said doesn't rub people the wrong way. The Auburn game was brought up and he took zero ownership of the picks. He stressed multiple times that it was the right read on the first one and completely threw his FB under the bus on the 2nd one , the end zone pick six, saying and pointing out that he missed the block. While it is true, man you just don't do that

I didn't like the way he handled himself at the pro day either.

THAT right up there is a fair criticism.

Did you see the post I made about the Bama forums?

That stuff was back from 2017, so not people trying to tear down a draft pick. As far as people on that forum was concerned, Mac was never going to start a game at Bama, let alone ever play lin the NFL..

The consensus was if he was not so beloved by his teammates he would have been kicked off the team. Odds are his personality is not overly negative to his teammates. They probably have a very truthful locker room. His teammates seem to love him.

What was the most interesting from that forum (forums) was the people on campus said the DUI was not a youthful mistake, that was Mac's lifestyle. It was only matter of time before he had a DUI (or DUIs). He very much was the drunken Fatboy. I get he might have bee a good student, and he might be smart or whatever, but he had VERY little accountability with his personal life on campus.

Again, they were saying that back in 2017, so we can rule out motives or trying to tear down the now famous guy.....this was people talking about the Token QB that was never going to start for Bama.

People do in face turn their lives around, maybe Mac did...but I hope the team is 100% certain about his maturity if he is the pick. That is a very high profile miss if Mac has drinking issues, the 49ers cant afford that after the other high profile problems the team has had with headaches.

Originally posted by ronniefreakinlott42:
What happens if, for some reason Shanny is fired? Would Jones still be good in another system? That's my issue. I want a QB that would be great in any system. I know it's not likely if we continue to Make the playoffs, but I didn't think it likely Harbaugh would be fired after his success. To me, Fields is most likely to succeed in any system.

I mean if we draft Fields/Lance and Shanny is fired. There is a 99% probability that they were the reason. So no matter who we draft if Shanny gets fired it's because the QB failed so it means he couldn't succeed in ANY system

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Mac will have to be Tom Brady for him to be worth 3 1st rd picks...

So what would Lance and Fields have to become to be worth it? Patrick Mahomes (the one who won a Superbowl)?

Or Deshawn Watson, or Josh Allen, or Russell Wilson, or Kyler Murray. There's a number of athletic QBs that can beat you from inside and outside the pocket and would flourish in a Shanahan system. Tom Brady is a unicorn and much harder to project his intangibles onto a young player. I'd say the likelihood of Mac becoming the next Brady is far less than Fields becoming the next Mahomes, or Lance becoming the next Allen.

So one Superbowl riding a historic defense and absolutely nothing else?

Let's play an even playing field. If Mac has to be Tom Brady to be considered "worth it" what does Lance and Fields have to be?

I never said he has to be Brady. There's just so few examples of guys with Mac's traits becoming great QBs. Guys like Ryan and Manning had much better arms coming out of college. Maybe his arm talent improves when he puts more effort in his physique (why is this not a concern???). The other guys are already at an advantage by being far physically superior while comparable mentally to Mac.

Honest question, do you think Mac is a better prospect than Fields?

Your arguing neighbors did. Fair enough.

How about you? What would Fields/Lance have to do to also be considered "worth it?"

There's this belief one has zero elite traits and the other two have elite traits so this should be a really simple answer coming.

To be worth the trade, I think Watson, Wilson, Kyler, Allen, Mahomes, or Herbert would be wonderful analogs to be a considered a success, especially with the creative mind of Shanahan. I think that's totally achievable with either of these two prospects.

For Mac, I think somewhere in a bit better than Cousins and up to the unicorn Brady to be considered a success. There's just not a lot of examples of current QBs that lack both agility and arm strength to create good comparisons. Maybe Matt Ryan, but again he's not a good comp because he has a bigger body to withstand the rigors of the game and a stronger arm. I totally think Mac can be good if he's as elite as they say processing the game. That's one of the most important traits there is in the QB position.

It just sounds like there are two different sets of standards. One of your examples won a Superbowl off a historic defense in 2014 and nothing since, the other is a generational talent that had to win in the final 7 minutes against our defense that gave up 21 points in 5 minutes.

The others are young and exciting but haven't done anything yet in reality.

So let's call a spade a spade and hold identical standards.

In order for it to be worth it:
Mac Jones has to at least reach the Jimmy Garoppolo and Matt Ryan Superbowl level given most never get their team to the dance
Fields/Lance have to at least become Patrick Mahomes (the year he lost)

Fair?

I am not bringing Super Bowls into this argument as there are lots of factors outside of QB play.

If you trade two firsts and a third, you want your QB to be better than Jimmy or Cousins at their best. Better than cousins, somewhere in the Ryan/Rivers (moderate stars) to Brees/Brady (future HOFers) arena for Jones.

For Lance/Fields somewhere between Watson/Allen (young stars) to Wilson/Mahomes/Young (future/current HOFers).

Like I said elsewhere, elite physical traits has become a feature of QB play rather than a crutch. We're seeing a renaissance of QB play as the league transitions to pocket passers who have elite physical traits. This is why there's a bunch of young budding stars, almost all possessing great physical gifts. Not saying that guys who do not possess those physical gifts cannot be successful and win SBs (obviously the can), but the game is evolving and teams are seeking Tom Brady with elite speed and agility.

You have to bring up Superbowls because that's why this move is taking place. We already have a QB that proved to get us there. We're going youth to sustain that ideal for a dynasty.

I guess, outside of Mahomes, who's played poorly in Superbowls overall, there really isn't a standard yet. You can't even put in Allen or Jackson or Watson in that category either. Mahomes is a pocket passer who runs < 300 yards a year and has the best weapons in the NFL behind an OL that is permitted to hold every down.

Maybe in a few years there will be better comps.

Don't get me wrong, the list you provided is "exciting" with lots of really good regular season stats to boot but I think Kyle is shooting much higher here with this move.

So, Superbowls are the goal...for it to be worth it. No matter the preferred style.

I don't disagree that Super Bowls are the goal, but there's a whole lot to qualify regarding defenses, weapons, offensive lines, officiating, etc. Hell, Colin friggin' Kaepernick was probably a missed illegal block in the back away from being a Super Bowl winning QB.

My point, because I don't want to get in the weeds rehashing old Super Bowls, is that you want a QB that always gives you a chance to get there. Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, Russ Wilson, always give their teams a competitive shot because they are consistently great QBs. That's what you want, a guy who always performs well enough that if the rest of the stars align will deliver that ultimate goal. I see this young crop of dual threat guys following in those footsteps especially once they mature to master the position.

That's fair. I just caution you that so many fail too...or become one hit wonders like Jackson.

Obviously, if I saw a Steve Young 2.0 or Tom Brady with athletic ability, I'd be all over it too.

It's just at 3 right now, each has some elite abilities but none possess all of it so it simply comes down to style. Like those who want Lance or Fields when both of their games couldn't be more different. It's simply a fan wanting a more mobile QB.

Luxury or necessity?

I've provided evidence it's more luxury at the NFL level.

I get what you're saying.

for me at least, mobility is good, but I want a guy who can make throws to every level of the field in less than ideal conditions and has a body that can withstand punishment. I'm just not sure Jones checks either of those boxes. I obviously love that a guy can take off and erase third downs with his legs, but like you said, that's more of a bonus than a necessity. Still, I'd rather a QB have that ability than not, especially if all other things are equal.

Appreciate the discussion. And I totally get that. Let's just hope that no matter what style you prefer, it's the right thing in the end and he becomes a real FQB...one we haven't had since the early 90's.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Appreciate the discussion. And I totally get that. Let's just hope that no matter what style you prefer, it's the right thing in the end and he becomes a real FQB...one we haven't had since the early 90's.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
You need to be able to have the arm talent to make those throws without having to reset your feet. Again Cosell said he CAN NOT do this.

some QBs need more PP to have more success. Jones and Jimmy are those type of QBs.

I certainly agree with your last sentence.

Are you sure you're interpreting Cossell's comments? I thought he meant, he's not a guy who's going to outrun a free defender if Silverback goes down. Just asking...

Because his feet seem to be super quick and you see him throwing off platform esp. when he's about to get clocked.

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by mayo49:
The biggest thing for me about Jones - is he just has to lose some weight. It'll help in his conditioning and maybe after a weight lifting program, add some velocity to his throws.

The weight issue is so overblown. People keep going back to the same photo that came from 2019. If you look at recent pics of him, he looks to be perfectly fine, especially for a pocket passer.

He doesn't have to lose a ton of weight - just tone up.

You'd think a guy who spent all that time in college would have learned to hit the weight room a little bit. It's a concern for me. I want a guy to study film and also build his physique.

.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NinerBuff:
That's an interesting take OTC! If it turns out to be Mac, then there was some leak (either via Chris Simms or other). And if not, it follows Lynch's MO that there's no leaks at all.

Or there was never any leak and everyone and their uncle could see the fit with Jones in Shanahan's offense. Its why I made this thread in the first place. Go look at the first page and some of the comment there and that was back in November. You don't need some special Deepthroat level source to figure out that Shanahan would show interest in him.