Arden Key, DL

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Been a nice surprise and as one person said Kinlaw's injury may be a blessing in disguise. Hope he can up this production. If he does prove to be effective this bodes well for the future. Get Hyder back for cheap. Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh. I'm hoping we can have the other dominant force emerge because the complimentary players like Jones and potentially Key and Willis can give us a game wrecking dline again.

Don't need to get Hyder back for cheap, give Kocurek a couple of 5th rounders and I'm betting he could easily find another DJ Jones or a younger more talented Kerry Hyder.

Probably right.

How can you say Armstead is meh? Just because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays doesn't mean he's not playing great.

The guy can literally play every position on the line at a "better than most" level.

It's precisely that point he's making.
Comparing Armstead to Buckner, Armstead is a good player, no doubt, but compared to Buckner, Armstead isn't as productive from an inside rusher standpoint (for example).

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Been a nice surprise and as one person said Kinlaw's injury may be a blessing in disguise. Hope he can up this production. If he does prove to be effective this bodes well for the future. Get Hyder back for cheap. Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh. I'm hoping we can have the other dominant force emerge because the complimentary players like Jones and potentially Key and Willis can give us a game wrecking dline again.

Don't need to get Hyder back for cheap, give Kocurek a couple of 5th rounders and I'm betting he could easily find another DJ Jones or a younger more talented Kerry Hyder.

Probably right.

How can you say Armstead is meh? Just because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays doesn't mean he's not playing great.

The guy can literally play every position on the line at a "better than most" level.

It's precisely that point he's making.
Comparing Armstead to Buckner, Armstead is a good player, no doubt, but compared to Buckner, Armstead isn't as productive from an inside rusher standpoint (for example).

I must have missed the Buckner comparison.

I read "Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh."

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Been a nice surprise and as one person said Kinlaw's injury may be a blessing in disguise. Hope he can up this production. If he does prove to be effective this bodes well for the future. Get Hyder back for cheap. Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh. I'm hoping we can have the other dominant force emerge because the complimentary players like Jones and potentially Key and Willis can give us a game wrecking dline again.

Don't need to get Hyder back for cheap, give Kocurek a couple of 5th rounders and I'm betting he could easily find another DJ Jones or a younger more talented Kerry Hyder.

Probably right.

How can you say Armstead is meh? Just because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays doesn't mean he's not playing great.

The guy can literally play every position on the line at a "better than most" level.

It's precisely that point he's making.
Comparing Armstead to Buckner, Armstead is a good player, no doubt, but compared to Buckner, Armstead isn't as productive from an inside rusher standpoint (for example).

How do we know if Armstead is not as good a pass rusher from the inside as Buckner? The only year that he was predominantly inside was his contract year. I guess you can then say that Armstead is a better outside rusher than Buckner.

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Been a nice surprise and as one person said Kinlaw's injury may be a blessing in disguise. Hope he can up this production. If he does prove to be effective this bodes well for the future. Get Hyder back for cheap. Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh. I'm hoping we can have the other dominant force emerge because the complimentary players like Jones and potentially Key and Willis can give us a game wrecking dline again.

Don't need to get Hyder back for cheap, give Kocurek a couple of 5th rounders and I'm betting he could easily find another DJ Jones or a younger more talented Kerry Hyder.

Probably right.

How can you say Armstead is meh? Just because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays doesn't mean he's not playing great.

The guy can literally play every position on the line at a "better than most" level.

It's the price tag. It's only the price tag. If you see my posts, I defend Armstead often as well as the trading of Buckner (though I personally wouldn't have done it). As we go further into the contract, the price tag is going up. Versatile as he is, more is needed and you know this. They didn't pay him that number to simply play multiple positions. And it's not just simply making splash plays. Once you go north of 10 million on the D-line, you are being paid to make game changing plays. That isn't happening and he just isn't that guy. That's fine. If his deal were 5 years 40 to 50 million as opposed to 5 years for 85, he'd be a keeper. We shouldn't be as pressed for cap space once we get past this season and I won't be upset if Armstead remained, but fact is, we could get two better than most players for the price of one.

Originally posted by Izyniner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Been a nice surprise and as one person said Kinlaw's injury may be a blessing in disguise. Hope he can up this production. If he does prove to be effective this bodes well for the future. Get Hyder back for cheap. Might need to move on from Armstead. He isn't terrible. But Bosa is back and better than ever and Armstead is meh. I'm hoping we can have the other dominant force emerge because the complimentary players like Jones and potentially Key and Willis can give us a game wrecking dline again.

Don't need to get Hyder back for cheap, give Kocurek a couple of 5th rounders and I'm betting he could easily find another DJ Jones or a younger more talented Kerry Hyder.

Probably right.

How can you say Armstead is meh? Just because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays doesn't mean he's not playing great.

The guy can literally play every position on the line at a "better than most" level.

It's precisely that point he's making.
Comparing Armstead to Buckner, Armstead is a good player, no doubt, but compared to Buckner, Armstead isn't as productive from an inside rusher standpoint (for example).

How do we know if Armstead is not as good a pass rusher from the inside as Buckner? The only year that he was predominantly inside was his contract year. I guess you can then say that Armstead is a better outside rusher than Buckner.

If Armstead were, they would've played Buckner far less over the 4 years he was inside and gave Armstead those snaps. That's how. Unless you believe coaches don't play the best players. I thought Thomas had a better shot on the inside than outside, but who were we taking off the field to give Thomas 20+ snaps inside when he was on the team?

What we have in Armstead is a very good run defender and a guy that can put some pressure on the QB. Basically, 2018 and 2020 Arik Armstead. What's the value of that player on the open market? Unfortunately, we are paying for 2019 Arik Armstead.

Originally posted by Izyniner:
How do we know if Armstead is not as good a pass rusher from the inside as Buckner? The only year that he was predominantly inside was his contract year. I guess you can then say that Armstead is a better outside rusher than Buckner.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
It's the price tag. It's only the price tag. If you see my posts, I defend Armstead often as well as the trading of Buckner (though I personally wouldn't have done it). As we go further into the contract, the price tag is going up. Versatile as he is, more is needed and you know this. They didn't pay him that number to simply play multiple positions. And it's not just simply making splash plays. Once you go north of 10 million on the D-line, you are being paid to make game changing plays. That isn't happening and he just isn't that guy. That's fine. If his deal were 5 years 40 to 50 million as opposed to 5 years for 85, he'd be a keeper. We shouldn't be as pressed for cap space once we get past this season and I won't be upset if Armstead remained, but fact is, we could get two better than most players for the price of one.

If Armstead were, they would've played Buckner far less over the 4 years he was inside and gave Armstead those snaps. That's how. Unless you believe coaches don't play the best players. I thought Thomas had a better shot on the inside than outside, but who were we taking off the field to give Thomas 20+ snaps inside when he was on the team?

What we have in Armstead is a very good run defender and a guy that can put some pressure on the QB. Basically, 2018 and 2020 Arik Armstead. What's the value of that player on the open market? Unfortunately, we are paying for 2019 Arik Armstead.

I agree with LifeLongNiner, and I agree with Izy too. I'm glad Armstead is on the team with Bosa. His numbers are going to be depressed, by design, if he can free up Bosa to kill the QB. Having said that, Armstead is a bit too expensive for the production he's been giving to the team. Still, I'm glad we have him - despite the price paid for his services.

Imagine it's a key situation and he gets a strip sack

This is our secret weapon right here

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Imagine it's a key situation and he gets a strip sack

This is our secret weapon right here

If he continues to get a sack a game, that's 10 sacks for the regular season. Kerry Hyder parlayed his 8 sacks into almost 7 million. Key will get a boatload of money if he gets 10 sacks this year.

Originally posted by HitMan52:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49ersking:
Where the heck is Armstead? A very bad decision to trade Bucker!

Agreed but hindsight is 2020 and that was last year.

Not really hindsight when literally everyone but Lynch knew that keeping Buckner and trading Armstead was the better option there. Still baffles me.

Exactly. The correct move was to let Armstead walk and extend Buckner who by all accounts said would have taken less than what colts gave him.

we weren't in a position to try and pull a belichik move. He would have done that but this regime hasn't proven s**t to do that. Pay your great players and let the one year wonders go.

In hindsight yes. But, had we nailed the Kinlaw pick(and who knows, maybe there is still hope) then wed all be saying it was a brilliant move. Armstead + 12 overall(or whatever it was) vs Buck is more fair than simply Armstead vs Buck.

Originally posted by Roryslosh:

Originally posted by HitMan52:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49ersking:
Where the heck is Armstead? A very bad decision to trade Bucker!

Agreed but hindsight is 2020 and that was last year.

Not really hindsight when literally everyone but Lynch knew that keeping Buckner and trading Armstead was the better option there. Still baffles me.

Exactly. The correct move was to let Armstead walk and extend Buckner who by all accounts said would have taken less than what colts gave him.

we weren't in a position to try and pull a belichik move. He would have done that but this regime hasn't proven s**t to do that. Pay your great players and let the one year wonders go.

In hindsight yes. But, had we nailed the Kinlaw pick(and who knows, maybe there is still hope) then wed all be saying it was a brilliant move. Armstead + 12 overall(or whatever it was) vs Buck is more fair than simply Armstead vs Buck.

Just from a numbers perspective:
Here are the DT's drafted in Kinlaw's class that were available at pick 14 and their sack totals so far.
Raekwon Davis - 1.5 sacks
Justin Madubuike- 2 sacks
DaVon Hamilton - 2
neville - .5
Jordan - 0
McTelvin - .5
Leki - 1
James Lynch - 2
(the rest of the Kinlaw's DT draft class have less than two sacks)

It looks like Justin (round 3 pick 71), Davon (round 3 pick 73), and James (round 4, pick 130), would have been of equal value to Kinlaw, from a production standpoint, if Kinlaw was drafted to rush the passer.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Roryslosh:

Originally posted by HitMan52:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49ersking:
Where the heck is Armstead? A very bad decision to trade Bucker!

Agreed but hindsight is 2020 and that was last year.

Not really hindsight when literally everyone but Lynch knew that keeping Buckner and trading Armstead was the better option there. Still baffles me.

Exactly. The correct move was to let Armstead walk and extend Buckner who by all accounts said would have taken less than what colts gave him.

we weren't in a position to try and pull a belichik move. He would have done that but this regime hasn't proven s**t to do that. Pay your great players and let the one year wonders go.

In hindsight yes. But, had we nailed the Kinlaw pick(and who knows, maybe there is still hope) then wed all be saying it was a brilliant move. Armstead + 12 overall(or whatever it was) vs Buck is more fair than simply Armstead vs Buck.

Just from a numbers perspective:
Here are the DT's drafted in Kinlaw's class that were available at pick 14 and their sack totals so far.
Raekwon Davis - 1.5 sacks
Justin Madubuike- 2 sacks
DaVon Hamilton - 2
neville - .5
Jordan - 0
McTelvin - .5
Leki - 1
James Lynch - 2
(the rest of the Kinlaw's DT draft class have less than two sacks)

It looks like Justin (round 3 pick 71), Davon (round 3 pick 73), and James (round 4, pick 130), would have been of equal value to Kinlaw, from a production standpoint, if Kinlaw was drafted to rush the passer.

Kinlaw has been a beast when able to play

law's issue was thinking he could have played through a knee issue when he should have fixed it the right way like he is now.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Roryslosh:

Originally posted by HitMan52:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49ersking:
Where the heck is Armstead? A very bad decision to trade Bucker!

Agreed but hindsight is 2020 and that was last year.

Not really hindsight when literally everyone but Lynch knew that keeping Buckner and trading Armstead was the better option there. Still baffles me.

Exactly. The correct move was to let Armstead walk and extend Buckner who by all accounts said would have taken less than what colts gave him.

we weren't in a position to try and pull a belichik move. He would have done that but this regime hasn't proven s**t to do that. Pay your great players and let the one year wonders go.

In hindsight yes. But, had we nailed the Kinlaw pick(and who knows, maybe there is still hope) then wed all be saying it was a brilliant move. Armstead + 12 overall(or whatever it was) vs Buck is more fair than simply Armstead vs Buck.

Just from a numbers perspective:
Here are the DT's drafted in Kinlaw's class that were available at pick 14 and their sack totals so far.
Raekwon Davis - 1.5 sacks
Justin Madubuike- 2 sacks
DaVon Hamilton - 2
neville - .5
Jordan - 0
McTelvin - .5
Leki - 1
James Lynch - 2
(the rest of the Kinlaw's DT draft class have less than two sacks)

It looks like Justin (round 3 pick 71), Davon (round 3 pick 73), and James (round 4, pick 130), would have been of equal value to Kinlaw, from a production standpoint, if Kinlaw was drafted to rush the passer.

Kinlaw has been a beast when able to play

law's issue was thinking he could have played through a knee issue when he should have fixed it the right way like he is now.

Well, that was my point actually. Do you go with great Talent - but with an injury history, or do you go with good-but not great talent, but they don't have any injury issues or injury history? The argument can be made that a good-but not great talent, can become great as long as they remain healthy. In fact if a player has a medical history, then his draft value should be impacted in a similar fashion. What good is great talent if they are always injured? One of the greatest abilities of a player is availability.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Roryslosh:

Originally posted by HitMan52:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49ersking:
Where the heck is Armstead? A very bad decision to trade Bucker!

Agreed but hindsight is 2020 and that was last year.

Not really hindsight when literally everyone but Lynch knew that keeping Buckner and trading Armstead was the better option there. Still baffles me.

Exactly. The correct move was to let Armstead walk and extend Buckner who by all accounts said would have taken less than what colts gave him.

we weren't in a position to try and pull a belichik move. He would have done that but this regime hasn't proven s**t to do that. Pay your great players and let the one year wonders go.

In hindsight yes. But, had we nailed the Kinlaw pick(and who knows, maybe there is still hope) then wed all be saying it was a brilliant move. Armstead + 12 overall(or whatever it was) vs Buck is more fair than simply Armstead vs Buck.

Just from a numbers perspective:
Here are the DT's drafted in Kinlaw's class that were available at pick 14 and their sack totals so far.
Raekwon Davis - 1.5 sacks
Justin Madubuike- 2 sacks
DaVon Hamilton - 2
neville - .5
Jordan - 0
McTelvin - .5
Leki - 1
James Lynch - 2
(the rest of the Kinlaw's DT draft class have less than two sacks)

It looks like Justin (round 3 pick 71), Davon (round 3 pick 73), and James (round 4, pick 130), would have been of equal value to Kinlaw, from a production standpoint, if Kinlaw was drafted to rush the passer.

Kinlaw has been a beast when able to play

law's issue was thinking he could have played through a knee issue when he should have fixed it the right way like he is now.

Well, that was my point actually. Do you go with great Talent - but with an injury history, or do you go with good-but not great talent, but they don't have any injury issues or injury history? The argument can be made that a good-but not great talent, can become great as long as they remain healthy. In fact if a player has a medical history, then his draft value should be impacted in a similar fashion. What good is great talent if they are always injured? One of the greatest abilities of a player is availability.

He played through injury. If he didn't he wouldn't have been a top pick.

after this current corrective surgery, he will be good to go

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well, that was my point actually. Do you go with great Talent - but with an injury history, or do you go with good-but not great talent, but they don't have any injury issues or injury history? The argument can be made that a good-but not great talent, can become great as long as they remain healthy. In fact if a player has a medical history, then his draft value should be impacted in a similar fashion. What good is great talent if they are always injured? One of the greatest abilities of a player is availability.

Put me down for that…twice.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well, that was my point actually. Do you go with great Talent - but with an injury history, or do you go with good-but not great talent, but they don't have any injury issues or injury history? The argument can be made that a good-but not great talent, can become great as long as they remain healthy. In fact if a player has a medical history, then his draft value should be impacted in a similar fashion. What good is great talent if they are always injured? One of the greatest abilities of a player is availability.

Put me down for that…twice.

A super star and his scrub friends can dominate basketball because there are fewer players active at a time.

Football is a true team sport where the the entire offense/defense benefits from above average play at multiple positions.

Simply having players that do their job and don't screw up will result in a good team. That is basically the Patriot way of running things.

A football team is better with B players everywhere rather than A at one spot and D in a few other spots because a good coach exploits your weakness with scheme.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
He played through injury. If he didn't he wouldn't have been a top pick.

after this current corrective surgery, he will be good to go

Lol he didn't even think he had an injury or at least that's what he told the world on social media after getting defensive when asked about it