Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I didn't see a lot of QB run calls. What I did see is a QB that was panicking a bit and started running before going through all his reads. Unfortunately all his reads were taking too long and he had to start running or he'd be sacked, and hence he ran much too often and got hurt. Towards the end, he wasn't reading as much as he was doing the Kaepernick thing of one read and go, and I think Kyle didn't want him to develop those kinds of bad habits and hence he's not allowed him to play once Jimmy was healthy. He'll be able to iron out his speed reading skills over the offseason - he was just thinking too much out there for my taste to allow him to play vs Jimmy. Jimmy is just flat out unconscious in that he just sees it and throws it without any sort of thinking at all.

Giedi, thanks for the post, as I never believed the "hooey" that kyle called all those running plays because he was trying to injure Trey. But i couldn't put my finger on it and wasn't sure what to make of it….other than it looked like something familiar, but it bugged me not knowing what. Then when you explained your thinking and the similarity to Kap's one read and GO, i knew immediately that you had gotten it right. It explains exactly what happened, and altho i knew for certain that Trey wasn't near ready for the bigs, i just missed what you observed, or rather intuitited.

Absolutely no question in my mind, that is what happened. 100 pts for figuring it out…and kyle sure as heck wasn't going to say that…yet that is exactly what happened. Retrospectively, I knew trey was nowhere near ready to play, and Kyle sure wasn't going to do something to ruin his nascent career. Way to go bud. That was the most introspective post i've read in a long, long time. And now I'm not trying to figure out what all that was about.

also kudos to kyle for recognizing it and pulling him before trey degraded into more of a one read and GO QB. Now the comments about JG and 2022, become a little clearer.

PasoDoc

yeah, this guy is worth 3 first round picks. I don't want Kyle screwing him up by playing him too much, too soon.

One trick play I can see happening once Trey is QB 1. Trey passes laterally to Jauan Jennings (not downfield), Jennings draws the defense to him, then Jauan just passes it back to Trey, who's about 4 or 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage with nobody around him, waiting for the ball, and with his Kaepernick speed he... can... go... all ... the .... way!

Interesting analysis from kurt warner on mac jones, and qb development generally.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2021/11/27/patriots-mac-jones-is-already-ahead-of-the-tom-brady-curve/amp/

NOTE: if you want to know why trey lance shouldn't be starting read this article carefully all the way through. It's basically a New York Post blame game for why Zac Wilson is struggling and not producing championship play... Like Mac Jones! Wilson's getting dragged through the mud and the pick is getting second-guessed by ex New York Jet executives. Just because he's playing on a crappy team with inept offensive coaching and showing it in the stats. . This is why you do not start rookie quarterbacks ever! In the NFL. Read this whole piece through. If trey lance were starting this would be a San Francisco Chronicle news story. No word of a lie

Originally posted by ElDannMann:

Originally posted by Aj_hwd954:
Gave up several years of first rounders for a QB who is "raw af"

Yup, and sometimes those "raw af" QBs end up being Patrick Mahomes. It's a gamble, but one worth the risk.

His accuracy and arm strength is not even in the same ballpark as Mahomes.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by ElDannMann:

Originally posted by Aj_hwd954:
Gave up several years of first rounders for a QB who is "raw af"

Yup, and sometimes those "raw af" QBs end up being Patrick Mahomes. It's a gamble, but one worth the risk.

His accuracy and arm strength is not even in the same ballpark as Mahomes.

Mahomes and Allen have cannons but Trey's is in the ball park.

The accuracy isn't obviously, but I think that will come when he trusts what sees.

It's absolutely pointless to complain about the draft capital, it's been spent. If he becomes a Franchise QB who can drive a team even after he's been paid, then no cost is too high.

If he doesn't, complain then.

In Each pass play in Bill Walsh's WCO had an option route -- *with 20 different options* -- Per Play!
Imagine all the reps a rookie QB needs to even understand just *one* play and the twenty (or more) options build into each play vs all the different defenses (man, zone, Nickel, Dime, Cover 4, cover 3, cover 2, cover 1, Tampa Two, 4-3 under, 3-4, 5-2, zone blitz, goal line, prevent etc...) just to be able to be unconscious like Jimmy is on just (for example) the 4th down throw to Deebo in the Rams game.

I think Trey on the Bench the entire year (with an occasional game appearance) and having practice reps is the best way to bring him along - specially with the complexity of Kyle's offense. With all the motions, formations, shifts, etc... With guys like Mac Jones, Belicheat has no choice to play him because he is the best QB they have, vs Kyle's situation where he has Jimmy.

These include the significant use of motion, ball-control passing game (see spread offenses), timing drop-backs executed by quarterbacks and option routes that have up to 20 different patterns built in based off of the leverage of the defender. These characteristics are being executed at a very high level in the place where hey once reached their pinnacle, San Francisco.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1087386-football-101-breaking-down-the-west-coast-offense

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
But, to Catch's point, even with Deebo at RB the plays are still the same, just different personnel looks.

For example, the misses TD to Wilson, that was spider 2 y Banana. Just crazy personnel swaps that confused the heck out of JAX's defense. Was also why we kissed the TD, just happened that Wilson flashed open cause you never throw the Venus on spider 2 y banana! Jk, it's not the Venus. But, it wasn't the intended route.

I see more read-option looks incorporated to hold DE's and such. But Kyle's been running the wide-zone play action game a long time and he's wanting Trey to run that offense, not tailoring his offense to Trey like he had to do with RGIII

I think a̶ ̶m̶a̶j̶o̶r̶i̶t̶y all of the playbook will stay the same, but a significant portion will c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ be expanded. I'm not ready to say what percentage, but I'm betting 15% or more.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:
Here's the rub....and I'm glad Jimmy is playing well the last few weeks.

If Trey started Week 1 and the rest of the way to now....would we be at least 5-5?

I say easy hell ****ing yes we would be no worse than 5-5 based on what I saw in that AZ game.

And that 5-5 is with 10 games of experience now under Trey's belt and by end of season he's not really a rookie anymore. And if we squeaked into the playoffs with a Lance w 17 games of experience, I believe we would be far more dangerous to do damage in the playoffs than w Jimmy at the helm.

Jimmy is getting this year clearly now. He better take as to the NFC title game or better or we just blew a year of experience for Trey and for what....nothing. and a qb that won't be here next here.

But he got hurt in his first start.

I liked a lot of what I saw but he got beat up bad. He could use some more seasoning on the bench while the team is winning.

Agree here. Beat up is on Shanahan's play calling in that AZ game. If that is how he envisions play calling with Lance on a regular basis he will get injured.

Yeah, can't keep calling for QB runs up the middle.

I didn't see a lot of QB run calls. What I did see is a QB that was panicking a bit and started running before going through all his reads. Unfortunately all his reads were taking too long and he had to start running or he'd be sacked, and hence he ran much too often and got hurt. Towards the end, he wasn't reading as much as he was doing the Kaepernick thing of one read and go, and I think Kyle didn't want him to develop those kinds of bad habits and hence he's not allowed him to play once Jimmy was healthy. He'll be able to iron out his speed reading skills over the offseason - he was just thinking too much out there for my taste to allow him to play vs Jimmy. Jimmy is just flat out unconscious in that he just sees it and throws it without any sort of thinking at all.

Nice post, Giedi.

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:
Here's the rub....and I'm glad Jimmy is playing well the last few weeks.

If Trey started Week 1 and the rest of the way to now....would we be at least 5-5?

I say easy hell ****ing yes we would be no worse than 5-5 based on what I saw in that AZ game.

And that 5-5 is with 10 games of experience now under Trey's belt and by end of season he's not really a rookie anymore. And if we squeaked into the playoffs with a Lance w 17 games of experience, I believe we would be far more dangerous to do damage in the playoffs than w Jimmy at the helm.

Jimmy is getting this year clearly now. He better take as to the NFC title game or better or we just blew a year of experience for Trey and for what....nothing. and a qb that won't be here next here.

But he got hurt in his first start.

I liked a lot of what I saw but he got beat up bad. He could use some more seasoning on the bench while the team is winning.

Agree here. Beat up is on Shanahan's play calling in that AZ game. If that is how he envisions play calling with Lance on a regular basis he will get injured.

Yeah, can't keep calling for QB runs up the middle.

I didn't see a lot of QB run calls. What I did see is a QB that was panicking a bit and started running before going through all his reads. Unfortunately all his reads were taking too long and he had to start running or he'd be sacked, and hence he ran much too often and got hurt. Towards the end, he wasn't reading as much as he was doing the Kaepernick thing of one read and go, and I think Kyle didn't want him to develop those kinds of bad habits and hence he's not allowed him to play once Jimmy was healthy. He'll be able to iron out his speed reading skills over the offseason - he was just thinking too much out there for my taste to allow him to play vs Jimmy. Jimmy is just flat out unconscious in that he just sees it and throws it without any sort of thinking at all.

Nice post, Giedi.

Originally posted by Giedi:
In Each pass play in Bill Walsh's WCO had an option route -- *with 20 different options* -- Per Play!
Imagine all the reps a rookie QB needs to even understand just *one* play and the twenty (or more) options build into each play vs all the different defenses (man, zone, Nickel, Dime, Cover 4, cover 3, cover 2, cover 1, Tampa Two, 4-3 under, 3-4, 5-2, zone blitz, goal line, prevent etc...) just to be able to be unconscious like Jimmy is on just (for example) the 4th down throw to Deebo in the Rams game.

I think Trey on the Bench the entire year (with an occasional game appearance) and having practice reps is the best way to bring him along - specially with the complexity of Kyle's offense. With all the motions, formations, shifts, etc... With guys like Mac Jones, Belicheat has no choice to play him because he is the best QB they have, vs Kyle's situation where he has Jimmy.

These include the significant use of motion, ball-control passing game (see spread offenses), timing drop-backs executed by quarterbacks and option routes that have up to 20 different patterns built in based off of the leverage of the defender. These characteristics are being executed at a very high level in the place where hey once reached their pinnacle, San Francisco.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1087386-football-101-breaking-down-the-west-coast-offense

Great post. With this type of complexity if asked to do it week 1 KS would have to dumb down the offense. No offense to Trey, any rook no matter who, would be operating a dumbed down version to make it functional day 1. Also if you don't really understand what's going on out there you can develop nasty habits like bailing on a play to early, taking your eyes away from what's going on downfield, etc. If too many bad habits pile up you start losing confidence and regressing.

A lot of teams start rooks because there is pressure in the organization to do so. Or because they have a weak QB room with no other strong options. To go from Horizon League in 2019, to on the couch 2020, to NFL football 2021 that is a shocking jump in difficulty. I bet each week he's learning so much if he's indeed applying himself.

Originally posted by Giedi:
In Each pass play in Bill Walsh's WCO had an option route -- *with 20 different options* -- Per Play!
Imagine all the reps a rookie QB needs to even understand just *one* play and the twenty (or more) options build into each play vs all the different defenses (man, zone, Nickel, Dime, Cover 4, cover 3, cover 2, cover 1, Tampa Two, 4-3 under, 3-4, 5-2, zone blitz, goal line, prevent etc...) just to be able to be unconscious like Jimmy is on just (for example) the 4th down throw to Deebo in the Rams game.

I think Trey on the Bench the entire year (with an occasional game appearance) and having practice reps is the best way to bring him along - specially with the complexity of Kyle's offense. With all the motions, formations, shifts, etc... With guys like Mac Jones, Belicheat has no choice to play him because he is the best QB they have, vs Kyle's situation where he has Jimmy.

These include the significant use of motion, ball-control passing game (see spread offenses), timing drop-backs executed by quarterbacks and option routes that have up to 20 different patterns built in based off of the leverage of the defender. These characteristics are being executed at a very high level in the place where hey once reached their pinnacle, San Francisco.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1087386-football-101-breaking-down-the-west-coast-offense

Perfecting these offenses depend on the trust and cohesion the qb develops with his receivers. The best receivers are all experts at reading/feeling the leverage they have on the defender and knowing when to either sit down, go, post, float, slant etc. Then you need a qb absolutely married to the game with extremely high processing ability and very cerebral. They need to know what the other is thinking and then trust in each other.
These were closest to perfection with
Manning to Harrison and Wayne
Warner to Holt and Bruce
Brady with a ton of guys especially Edelman
All those receivers along with Rice were super nuanced. They use head fakes, their eyes, anything to win a route. A few of the great wide receivers just won with superior physicality like TO. Moss had it all but Jerry is the goat.

I can see Mac getting there because he is about football and nothing else. No social media posts during the season while we got Lance doing photo shoots for anyone who asks.

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
Perfecting these offenses depend on the trust and cohesion the qb develops with his receivers. The best receivers are all experts at reading/feeling the leverage they have on the defender and knowing when to either sit down, go, post, float, slant etc. Then you need a qb absolutely married to the game with extremely high processing ability and very cerebral. They need to know what the other is thinking and then trust in each other.
These were closest to perfection with
Manning to Harrison and Wayne
Warner to Holt and Bruce
Brady with a ton of guys especially Edelman
All those receivers along with Rice were super nuanced. They use head fakes, their eyes, anything to win a route. A few of the great wide receivers just won with superior physicality like TO. Moss had it all but Jerry is the goat.

I can see Mac getting there because he is about football and nothing else. No social media posts during the season while we got Lance doing photo shoots for anyone who asks.

Yea, sure, Henry Ruggs drinking buddy Mac Jones is definitely all about football.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
Perfecting these offenses depend on the trust and cohesion the qb develops with his receivers. The best receivers are all experts at reading/feeling the leverage they have on the defender and knowing when to either sit down, go, post, float, slant etc. Then you need a qb absolutely married to the game with extremely high processing ability and very cerebral. They need to know what the other is thinking and then trust in each other.
These were closest to perfection with
Manning to Harrison and Wayne
Warner to Holt and Bruce
Brady with a ton of guys especially Edelman
All those receivers along with Rice were super nuanced. They use head fakes, their eyes, anything to win a route. A few of the great wide receivers just won with superior physicality like TO. Moss had it all but Jerry is the goat.

I can see Mac getting there because he is about football and nothing else. No social media posts during the season while we got Lance doing photo shoots for anyone who asks.

Yea, sure, Henry Ruggs drinking buddy Mac Jones is definitely all about football.

You have no clue

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
Perfecting these offenses depend on the trust and cohesion the qb develops with his receivers. The best receivers are all experts at reading/feeling the leverage they have on the defender and knowing when to either sit down, go, post, float, slant etc. Then you need a qb absolutely married to the game with extremely high processing ability and very cerebral. They need to know what the other is thinking and then trust in each other.
These were closest to perfection with
Manning to Harrison and Wayne
Warner to Holt and Bruce
Brady with a ton of guys especially Edelman
All those receivers along with Rice were super nuanced. They use head fakes, their eyes, anything to win a route. A few of the great wide receivers just won with superior physicality like TO. Moss had it all but Jerry is the goat.

I can see Mac getting there because he is about football and nothing else. No social media posts during the season while we got Lance doing photo shoots for anyone who asks.

Yea, sure, Henry Ruggs drinking buddy Mac Jones is definitely all about football.

You have no clue

Oh, were you in the car that Jones crashed into and can some shed some light on what happened? The only difference between him and Ruggs is luck and a faster car, but Roll Tide I guess. The only one who has "no clue" is you, because you're the one that is insinuating that Lance must not care about football because he took a photo… ?

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
Perfecting these offenses depend on the trust and cohesion the qb develops with his receivers. The best receivers are all experts at reading/feeling the leverage they have on the defender and knowing when to either sit down, go, post, float, slant etc. Then you need a qb absolutely married to the game with extremely high processing ability and very cerebral. They need to know what the other is thinking and then trust in each other.
These were closest to perfection with
Manning to Harrison and Wayne
Warner to Holt and Bruce
Brady with a ton of guys especially Edelman
All those receivers along with Rice were super nuanced. They use head fakes, their eyes, anything to win a route. A few of the great wide receivers just won with superior physicality like TO. Moss had it all but Jerry is the goat.

I can see Mac getting there because he is about football and nothing else. No social media posts during the season while we got Lance doing photo shoots for anyone who asks.

Yea, sure, Henry Ruggs drinking buddy Mac Jones is definitely all about football.

You have no clue

Oh, were you in the car that Jones crashed into and can some shed some light on what happened? The only difference between him and Ruggs is luck and a faster car, but Roll Tide I guess. The only one who has "no clue" is you, because you're the one that is insinuating that Lance must not care about football because he took a photo… ?

Geez, Mac must haunt your dreams. And I'm sure you e drank and drove as well, I know I have, but there's a big difference between a run of the mill DUI and what Ruggs did. He had a history of driving at break neck speeds.

Well they should probably find a group of plays for this guy. If you trade a truckload of picks away it would be nice to actually see him play.