Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by Furlow:
How many times do I have to answer this, dude? In good conditions, it doesn't matter much. Although a tighter spiral is easier to catch.

Per the video,....Is a tighter spiral easier to catch than a more accurate pass? This is the ONLY question you need to be answering.

As science has been teaching,...tighter spirals down the field can actually be less accurate.

Interesting thing about this stuff is the military has known about these principles for years,...but no one really thought it would apply to footballs being thrown as well.

For those interested in why,...scientifically...wobble actually helps passes with accuracy:

The Gyroscope Principle

To do it, Rae took a regulation NFL ball, cut the back end off about an inch from the tip, and filled it with a polyurethane foam that inflated the ball to normal size without adding much weight. He then hollowed the ball out, leaving just enough foam to keep it inflated, and inserted a small electric motor to spin the ball.

The physics he observed is complicated and is presented in two soon-to-be-published papers. In layman's terms, however, there are three primary forces acting on the football. The first is a lift force generated by air colliding with the underside of the ball, near the nose.

That force tends to make the ball tumble end over end. To counter it, the quarterback puts spin on the ball, which makes the ball act like a gyroscope.

That prevents the nose from rising, but tends to make it move to the right for a right-handed quarterback or to the left for a left-hander.

"This is the fundamental gyroscope principle: If a body is spun about one axis and torqued [turned] about a second axis, it will respond by turning about the third axis," he said. "Anyone who has ever used a leaf blower can feel this when they try to turn it."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-feb-04-sci-football4-story.html

And don't be surprised at all if Brian Griese has been involved with Trey regarding such nuances...

The football also undergoes precession and this motion creates an aerodynamic twisting that, on average, pushes the nose of the football down, the physicists showed.

Dr. Gay said the findings could potentially even offer some tips to quarterbacks — for instance, that if a right-handed quarterback threw the pass with the ball slightly askew to the left initially, that might lower the total air resistance and allow it to travel a bit farther. "But I'm thinking those would be pretty marginal improvements," he said.

Brian Griese, a former quarterback for the Denver Broncos and other N.F.L. teams and now an analyst on ESPN, said that top-tier quarterbacks might be interested in learning more.

"I think you're always looking for information, always looking for an edge," he said. "I read the paper, believe it or not, and it was very interesting. I actually have a daughter who's 14 right now and studying trigonometry and so I shared it with her and she was interested in it."

Of course, professional athletes already intuitively know much of this. Dr. Price said he was watching a replay of a pass by Patrick Mahomes of the Kansas City Chiefs where the camera was facing in the direction of the oncoming pass.

"I could count the number of wobbles, and they were in good agreement with the numbers in our paper," Dr. Price said. "I joked to my colleagues, 'He must have read our paper.'"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/science/football-pass-physics.html

Originally posted by random49er:
Per the video,....Is a tighter spiral easier to catch than a more accurate pass? This is the ONLY question you need to be answering.

As science has been teaching,...tighter spirals down the field can actually be less accurate.

I mean, this argument seems like the one about whether that JG pass to Deebo was high and off target. It was clearly not a perfect pass, but it also should have been caught.

Same thing here. Accuracy should trump everything. If Trey throws a duck, but it is thrown in such a way it is accurate, why does it matter? One is an aesthetic concern, the other is a relevant concern. I would prefer every throw to be beautiful. But, I will take wobbly completions over aesthetically pleasing tight spiral interceptions.

Sounds like Trey needs to work on short ez passes. Hes got the long to intermediate throws down, just gotta work on those layups

Originally posted by Young2Owens:
Sounds like Trey needs to work on short ez passes. Hes got the long to intermediate throws down, just gotta work on those layups

Need to somehow fuse him and Jimmy together lol

Originally posted by Polkadots:

Originally posted by random49er:
Per the video,....Is a tighter spiral easier to catch than a more accurate pass? This is the ONLY question you need to be answering.

As science has been teaching,...tighter spirals down the field can actually be less accurate.

I mean, this argument seems like the one about whether that JG pass to Deebo was high and off target. It was clearly not a perfect pass, but it also should have been caught.

Same thing here. Accuracy should trump everything. If Trey throws a duck, but it is thrown in such a way it is accurate, why does it matter? One is an aesthetic concern, the other is a relevant concern. I would prefer every throw to be beautiful. But, I will take wobbly completions over aesthetically pleasing tight spiral interceptions.

Montana often threw wobbly passes but they found their mark. I'm way more concerned with results than I am with esthetics. I don't really care about QBR and completion percentage as much as points on the board. I'll take the guy that has 3 TD passes and a 60% completion over a guy that has 1 TD pass and a 68% completion.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by Furlow:
How many times do I have to answer this, dude? In good conditions, it doesn't matter much. Although a tighter spiral is easier to catch.

Per the video,....Is a tighter spiral easier to catch than a more accurate pass? This is the ONLY question you need to be answering.

As science has been teaching,...tighter spirals down the field can actually be less accurate.

Of course the pass has to be accurate. Accuracy being equal, a tighter spiral is going to be easier to catch, yes. And yes I saw that a slight wobble = greater accuracy. So let's hope Trey turns these big wobblers into smaller wobblers. Even the ones they were showing of Brees it was almost impossible to tell until they put it in slow motion.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How do tight spirals correlate to winning or losing? That is all I ultimately care about.

its an added benefit

Okay. But how much of a difference does it make between winning and losing? How much does it play a factor in Trey becoming an elit QB?

Personally I think it's about standards of excellence. A QB should want to be excellent in all areas of QB'ing. Joe and Steve hardly threw ducks, for example.

PS. I thought Trey's mechanics have tightened up since NDSU, personally. But I'm just an armchair QB.

For those who keep bringing up his wobbly passes, I just want them to give me some quantifiable reason to explain why they are so hung up on it and why it is so important.

How many times do I have to answer this, dude? In good conditions, it doesn't matter much. Although a tighter spiral is easier to catch. But in rainy, windy, or snowy conditions - a wobbler becomes a duck. And in tight windows, it gives the defender that much more area to tip the pass and break up the play.

it's not a MAJOR issue by any stretch. But since he changes his mechanics from college (where he did not throw wobblers) it's somewhat concerning. It's something to discuss.

How many times do I have to keep asking this question, dude? How much of a difference does it make between winning and losing? You keep bringing up a hypothetical scenario with no example to prove your point. Is this another one of those, "I should trust it just because you said it conversations" again?

If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine. Just stop saying that no one is giving a reason why it matters. And of course it's hypothetical right now, Trey hasn't played enough for us to see if it matters. If we play a game in windy and/or rainy conditions and his wobblers don't turn into ducks, I'll gladly put this down and go with it. Again, just something to discuss. It's preseason lol.

Originally posted by illinois9er:

Originally posted by Young2Owens:
Sounds like Trey needs to work on short ez passes. Hes got the long to intermediate throws down, just gotta work on those layups

Need to somehow fuse him and Jimmy together lol

Jrey Lanappolo

So if wobblers become ducks in rain/snow are true, a headcoach will be panicking and checking wind and weather reports for rainfall every week. That makes no sense.

I think it's also how a QB handles slippery field conditions, cleat size they are comfortable using, hand size, grip style, gloves vs no gloves, and how much torque they can generate on bad conditions without their legs completely under them.

I just refuse to look at Trey's wobble balls and think those will become automatically become ducks somehow because it's rainy, windy, snowy.

From checking a bunch of NFL past games in very bad weather, a slighlty more wobbler wont morph and become an even more wobbler duck ball. It's the same wobbliness from start to finish. Unless there is a hurricane. How they perform seems more dependent on the QB's ability to play in bad conditions, more than wobblers morphing around.

Originally posted by random49er:
Interesting thing about this stuff is the military has known about these principles for years,...but no one really thought it would apply to footballs being thrown as well.

For those interested in why,...scientifically...wobble actually helps passes with accuracy:

The Gyroscope Principle

To do it, Rae took a regulation NFL ball, cut the back end off about an inch from the tip, and filled it with a polyurethane foam that inflated the ball to normal size without adding much weight. He then hollowed the ball out, leaving just enough foam to keep it inflated, and inserted a small electric motor to spin the ball.

The physics he observed is complicated and is presented in two soon-to-be-published papers. In layman's terms, however, there are three primary forces acting on the football. The first is a lift force generated by air colliding with the underside of the ball, near the nose.

That force tends to make the ball tumble end over end. To counter it, the quarterback puts spin on the ball, which makes the ball act like a gyroscope.

That prevents the nose from rising, but tends to make it move to the right for a right-handed quarterback or to the left for a left-hander.

"This is the fundamental gyroscope principle: If a body is spun about one axis and torqued [turned] about a second axis, it will respond by turning about the third axis," he said. "Anyone who has ever used a leaf blower can feel this when they try to turn it."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-feb-04-sci-football4-story.html

And don't be surprised at all if Brian Griese has been involved with Trey regarding such nuances...

The football also undergoes precession and this motion creates an aerodynamic twisting that, on average, pushes the nose of the football down, the physicists showed.

Dr. Gay said the findings could potentially even offer some tips to quarterbacks — for instance, that if a right-handed quarterback threw the pass with the ball slightly askew to the left initially, that might lower the total air resistance and allow it to travel a bit farther. "But I'm thinking those would be pretty marginal improvements," he said.

Brian Griese, a former quarterback for the Denver Broncos and other N.F.L. teams and now an analyst on ESPN, said that top-tier quarterbacks might be interested in learning more.

"I think you're always looking for information, always looking for an edge," he said. "I read the paper, believe it or not, and it was very interesting. I actually have a daughter who's 14 right now and studying trigonometry and so I shared it with her and she was interested in it."

Of course, professional athletes already intuitively know much of this. Dr. Price said he was watching a replay of a pass by Patrick Mahomes of the Kansas City Chiefs where the camera was facing in the direction of the oncoming pass.

"I could count the number of wobbles, and they were in good agreement with the numbers in our paper," Dr. Price said. "I joked to my colleagues, 'He must have read our paper.'"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/science/football-pass-physics.html

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by Furlow:
How many times do I have to answer this, dude? In good conditions, it doesn't matter much. Although a tighter spiral is easier to catch.

Per the video,....Is a tighter spiral easier to catch than a more accurate pass? This is the ONLY question you need to be answering.

As science has been teaching,...tighter spirals down the field can actually be less accurate.

Of course the pass has to be accurate. Accuracy being equal, a tighter spiral is going to be easier to catch, yes. And yes I saw that a slight wobble = greater accuracy. So let's hope Trey turns these big wobblers into smaller wobblers. Even the ones they were showing of Brees it was almost impossible to tell until they put it in slow motion.

"easier to catch"

What the facts are showing though, is that someone can over-focus on spiraling the ball down the field,...but the physics of it causes them to drift [the ball] more to the left or the right.

I mean we are seeing things through the lens of a QB,...let's not switch the convo up. I'm sure WRs have a harder time judging passes that slightly drift one way or the other. I didn't know until today after researching it,...but science says you've overplayed this subject way, way too much.

Next week at this time we'll be able to over analyze every throw Trey made on Friday night instead of his practice sessions. That's a step in the right direction.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Next week at this time we'll be able to over analyze every throw Trey made on Friday night instead of his practice sessions. That's a step in the right direction.

Assuming he plays.

Originally posted by picklejuice:
?t=409
I don't trust these shows BUT
Even a stupid show sports science mention a little wobble occurs to keep the ball on target.
Its mentioned around the 7 minute mark. Is it true? IDK. lol

Wobble is GOOD!