Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
To go back to this.. a lot of the 2021 debate was predicated on we started 3-5 and were therefore 'out of contention' i.e. season over. I didn't think that, but it was cited by a lot of ppl as to why we should play the kids, TL especially. This reasoning was demonstrated resoundingly false. The idea has similar energy to when someone says in the gameday thread 'season over, fire everyone' when we go three and out to start a random game.

I said they should have given him all the reps from day 1. Once it was declared Jimmy's team fine. You made your bed with him and whatever the outcome, stick with it…at least until they were completely out of it.

They lost a whole year of developing him and damn near a whole other year this one.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
I agree. That's a key reason why I believe it was a very bad decision given the state of our team at the time. As I mentioned before, if we were a rebuilding team or even a middling team, playing Trey would be an easy decision.

Kyle and the FO put our team, and Lance*, in a no win situation, or at least an extremely unlikely to win situation.

I believe Watson would be a Niner right now if all that stuff didn't come out about him. It screwed over the Niners and so they went to plan B which is try to trade for Stafford but the Rams beat them to it. So then they went to plan C which is draft a QB but not only draft one but one with a similar skillset to a Watson or Josh Allen. They definetely didn't want another Jimmy G. They wanted a QB that can either do much more or had the potential to do much more.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
I agree. That's a key reason why I believe it was a very bad decision given the state of our team at the time. As I mentioned before, if we were a rebuilding team or even a middling team, playing Trey would be an easy decision.

Kyle and the FO put our team, and Lance*, in a no win situation, or at least an extremely unlikely to win situation.

Disagree. They didn't need a bunch of 1sts to rebuild the team. They needed a chance to get a game changing QB…on a rookie contract.

we don't need an all-star QB to win a bunch of games, we've seen that first hand. We do need one to win it all. So develop one with the talent to be that. You know like a lot of teams do. You don't have to start from rock bottom to accomplish that either.

no fans put in their head that they can't experience success and develop a QB, even though that's what has been happening for years here

Let's go Trey! It's now or never.

Originally posted by JTB1974:
I believe Watson would be a Niner right now if all that stuff didn't come out about him. It screwed over the Niners and so they went to plan B which is try to trade for Stafford but the Rams beat them to it. So then they went to plan C which is draft a QB but not only draft one but one with a similar skillset to a Watson or Josh Allen. They definetely didn't want another Jimmy G. They wanted a QB that can either do much more or had the potential to do much more.

That may very well be the case. We probably will not know the full story ever, or least until years down the road.

Either way, my personal opinion is that winning the Super Bowl should be the top priority (when you have the team to compete) and a key part of that is playing the best players you have. If Lance's development suffers as a result, there's nobody to blame but management. They've been great overall, but I think this was a pretty clear fumble.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
To go back to this.. a lot of the 2021 debate was predicated on we started 3-5 and were therefore 'out of contention' i.e. season over. I didn't think that, but it was cited by a lot of ppl as to why we should play the kids, TL especially. This reasoning was demonstrated resoundingly false. The idea has similar energy to when someone says in the gameday thread 'season over, fire everyone' when we go three and out to start a random game.

I said they should have given him all the reps from day 1. Once it was declared Jimmy's team fine. You made your bed with him and whatever the outcome, stick with it…at least until they were completely out of it.

They lost a whole year of developing him and damn near a whole other year this one.

That's an issue for you to take up with KS, in terms of losing 2021 development. This year of course was injury, he was planning on getting a lot of work.

A lot of dudes like Rodgers sit for years and when the moment is asked, they are ready, cuz they spent that time working. Talk to guys who play the game, they tell you most important thing is to be ready when your number is called. You can't decide when your number is called, that's coaches decision. You do decide what you do when you are out there, based on the work you put in to prepare. We gave TL all 2021 to prepare, what did he do with it? Still an open question as the 2022 injury robbed a season and the injury is what bothers me. Hard to develop with your foot in a boot. It just sucks.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I actually think his pocket awareness is underrated. To me it's just getting the ball out on time and staying in rhythm. Those are the biggest concerns I have for Trey.

When he does this, I admit he does look good throwing when he is in rhythm. He just isn't usually in rhythm.

He has started 3 games.... NON-CONSECUTIVELY. Tough to get into a rhythm consistently methinks. So he looks get throwing when he is in rhythm but people dont want to give him games to play in order for said rhythm to become more consistent... craziness.

Guys who are ready to play play.. guys who aren't don't. See Purdy, Brock among countless others. TL has looked okay in his time, not bad I would say. But the idea you need play time to perform, you don't. We act like these guys don't throw or get prepared outside of regular season games.

Because throwing to Aiyuk running routes versus air is the same as being in the pocket and having to find an open target before getting smashed?

Pointing out BP was balling from the jump. Countless others do this. The good ones tend to. Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Warner one could go on and on and on. Cam Newton did. TL a lot more of a raw prospect, which is why he had the red shirt year more or less. Injury turned it to two red shirt years.

No reason to think he will be struggling week 1 next year, he is capable of having a real game week 1 if called upon. Depends on how his offseason goes.

What did you mean by, "But the idea you need play time to perform, you don't", in your post above?
It's possible I completely misunderstood you, but I thought you meant, 'you don't need to play to improve'.

I was saying you don't need to struggle for your first handful of career starts before you look good / ready. I see a persistent narrative in this thread that TL won't look good until he gets a certain x volume of starts. I don't believe in that.

I think Trey would have looked good in the Seattle game if he didn't get his ankle destroyed in Week 2. And the following week. And the following week.

But the more experience one gets esp when super raw the better they will play over time unless they just don't have "it" in the first place.

I want to see if he has "it" based on more than 3 damn starts that were non-consecutive. I actually liked what I saw in all three games - vs AZ he was our best player on O and we drive the ball up and down the field just needed to put in the end zone. HOU played well. CHI made some elite throws and extended drives with his feet on 9 of 13 3rd down conversions. I wanted to see more this year in normal weather conditions obv to better assess.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Disagree. They didn't need a bunch of 1sts to rebuild the team. They needed a chance to get a game changing QB…on a rookie contract.

we don't need an all-star QB to win a bunch of games, we've seen that first hand. We do need one to win it all. So develop one with the talent to be that. You know like a lot of teams do. You don't have to start from rock bottom to accomplish that either.

no fans put in their head that they can't experience success and develop a QB, even though that's what has been happening for years here

I didn't say anything about using the 1sts to rebuild the team. It's not rebuilding to utilize extremely valuable assets in a manner other than selecting a project QB.

Which brings us to another fundamental disagreement we have between us, which is how good Trey Lance actually is right now. I think lesser of him than you do. I don't think this team can carry the player we saw and still contend. It's another argument for another time.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
That's an issue for you to take up with KS, in terms of losing 2021 development. This year of course was injury, he was planning on getting a lot of work.

A lot of dudes like Rodgers sit for years and when the moment is asked, they are ready, cuz they spent that time working. Talk to guys who play the game, they tell you most important thing is to be ready when your number is called. You can't decide when your number is called, that's coaches decision. You do decide what you do when you are out there, based on the work you put in to prepare. We gave TL all 2021 to prepare, what did he do with it? Still an open question as the 2022 injury robbed a season and the injury is what bothers me. Hard to develop with your foot in a boot. It just sucks.

A lot of dudes lol? Oh okay. Talk to guys and they'll tell you the only way you get better at anything in life, including football is by actually trying to do it.

sorry you expect 5,000 yards and 40+ TDs off the bat.

Difficult for a player as raw as Lance to develop when he has trouble staying healthy.

In 2021, he busted his finger before Wk 1. Then busted knee after his first start. In 2022, he broke his ankle after first start.

Like Lynch stated, "lance is obviously going to have to prove he can stay healthy".

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
That's an issue for you to take up with KS, in terms of losing 2021 development. This year of course was injury, he was planning on getting a lot of work.

A lot of dudes like Rodgers sit for years and when the moment is asked, they are ready, cuz they spent that time working. Talk to guys who play the game, they tell you most important thing is to be ready when your number is called. You can't decide when your number is called, that's coaches decision. You do decide what you do when you are out there, based on the work you put in to prepare. We gave TL all 2021 to prepare, what did he do with it? Still an open question as the 2022 injury robbed a season and the injury is what bothers me. Hard to develop with your foot in a boot. It just sucks.

A lot of dudes lol? Oh okay. Talk to guys and they'll tell you the only way you get better at anything in life, including football is by actually trying to do it.

sorry you expect 5,000 yards and 40+ TDs off the bat.

We act in this thread like they only play football when it's on tv

Also on TL how do you know he wouldn't have put up big numbers this season? He didn't get a chance to play. I think injury makes a season projection pretty moot.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Dshearn:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Pointing out BP was balling from the jump. Countless others do this. The good ones tend to. Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Warner one could go on and on and on. Cam Newton did. TL a lot more of a raw prospect, which is why he had the red shirt year more or less. Injury turned it to two red shirt years.

No reason to think he will be struggling week 1 next year, he is capable of having a real game week 1 if called upon. Depends on how his offseason goes.

You can in-fact count them.......

There have not been many that have come out the gate on fire.

I am not even sure I would include Brady in "from the jump"...he sat a year... Same with Rodgers who sat several years.

Manning was dogs**t his first full year. Young Brady was not "balling" out the gate as a QB either. He was winning on defense and running the ball.

Hurts stunk his first year and then some. Allen was awful.

faithful thought lance was gonna have like 50 TDs this yr. That's his damn fault for thinking he was gonna be that from day 1 as a starter.

he might never be a star, but anyone thinking they have any clue what he is right now is being incredibly arrogant

Brady won a SB first year as starter; so think it's fair to say he started out well.. they benched Bledsoe even when healthy that year

The point is there is not countless QBs that come out the gate lighting it up.

Tom Brady year 2 was better then 2003 Tim Rattay QB rating 86 vs 79 that is roughly 2 TDs over the course of a season. The total picture is that Brady is closer to Tim Rattay that year then he is to Jimmy G's average.

Rattay 3.1 td% 3.1 int% 6.7 yards per attempt 241 yards per game with Brandon Lloyd and Arnez Battle

Brady 4.1 td% 2.9 int% 6.8 yards per attempt 189 yards per game with Tony Brown and Terry Glenn

One team could carry a 189 yard passing game to the Super Bowl the other team was historically terrible.

By those percentages most QBs can't put it in the air 45 times a game to get 300 yards, or make 800-900 pass attempts in a season to get 30 tds....so while Brady was not terrible he was in fact not lighting it up.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
A lot of dudes lol? Oh okay. Talk to guys and they'll tell you the only way you get better at anything in life, including football is by actually trying to do it.

sorry you expect 5,000 yards and 40+ TDs off the bat.

You'll see this play out this year if Trey starts, and it will still be unfair to him as an individual player.

With Purdy's emergence especially, Trey now has a higher bar to clear at least in the minds of fans. You can see many different people saying things like it's now year 3 of Lance's time with the team and it's time to put up or move aside. But what has actually changed for Lance since he's been here? Not very much. He still hasn't played, and he still is very likely going to need to go through those growing pains. Fans aren't going to have patience if he struggles, and the honest question is why would they? If Brock is healthy we have a very promising alternative option.

It's a f**ked up situation for Lance, and he's got some pretty unreasonable hurdles to clear. Again, that is the fault of management. As much as you'd want great players and coaches around the kid to help his development, it's a double edged sword because it accelerates his timeline given there are other options. That was the case with the lame duck Jimmy G years, and now with Purdy.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
We act in this thread like they only play football when it's on tv

Because some posters don't value practice reps. But that's sometimes where it starts before you get your opportunity. That's exactly what Purdy did.

I posted his yesterday. Vet gushing about Purdys making the most of practice and how it helped him translate it to the field.

"I've been here nine years and I've seen it," Ward said on Wednesday. "I've seen different quarterbacks on the scout team. Sometimes three or four people will run across them -- one pass is a sack, but they will still roll out and make a throw.

"Or somebody will sack them and they still make a throw, and they look at you like, 'Yeah I threw a good pass on you.' But you also got sacked four or five times."

"You won't be able to hold the ball that long once you get in and it's time to be a quarterback," Ward said. "It's really hurting yourself and it's hurting the defense too. We can't react. We can't see the ball in the air because you're waiting for the perfect throw instead of trusting the timing preparing yourself.

"That's the thing that I like about Purdy, is he's giving us a real realistic rep and he's giving himself a realistic rep."

"That's why people always say don't take practice for granted," Ward said "Practice like you play, and he is a prime example. He practices how he plays, and he was using those reps versus the ones on defense and he was taking advantage of it.

"He had to play against the ones, against a playoff contender, and it looked like he did this before which was amazing to me. Very impressive."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/why-brock-purdys-success-49ers-dolphins-doesnt-surprise-jimmie-ward

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
We act in this thread like they only play football when it's on tv

Because some posters don't value practice reps. But that's sometimes where it starts before you get your opportunity. That's exactly what Purdy did.

I posted his yesterday. Vet gushing about Purdys making the most of practice and how it helped him translate it to the field.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/why-brock-purdys-success-49ers-dolphins-doesnt-surprise-jimmie-ward

I would say the vast vast majority of real football these guys play is not on Sundays. If all they did was work on Sundays I would say yes, TL needs starts to get better, etc.