Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Seriously doubt it. You can't teach field vision, reaction time, arm angles and processing speed. Those are natural talents which Mahomes possessed in bunches. About the only way he would have struggled is if he'd been injured a lot as a rookie and lost confidence.

Who gives a s**t about Mahomes? Dude is 1 of 1. Lance doesn't have to be him to be successful (if that's what the discussion is about).

I also completely disagree that you can't teach/learn/improve on field vision or processing speed.

We just gonna pretend like Mahomes didn't admit that he didn't learn how to properly read a defense til like 2 years ago?

But sure all that processing speed and field vision was natural. Maybe we can just sign Jackson Mahomes since it must be genetic.

Reading a defense isn't processing speed, nor is it field vision. Reading a defense is learning to understand what you see, and what you can infer about what you don't see, not how much you actually. You can improve all of those a little bit, just like you can get good at any skill. But someone naturally talented at something who also works at it as hard as you do will always blow you out of the water. Purdy may improve his arm strength. He's never going to throw like Allen.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Nope. Was to faithful.

Brock shows why you dont take a Mac in the first round. Can get a superior player in physical ability and production at 262.

Brock shows why you don't trade alot of assets for a QB. Can get a guy to run your system literally anywhere in the draft

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2021/story/_/id/31173355/all-29-s-nfl-teams-traded-draft-quarterback

If you could get a guy like that anywhere in the draft, there'd be a lot more of them.

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Chance:
All elite QBs have those balls, and you know it. But you don't lead the league in QB rating by just lucking out. The tape was elite. The numbers back that up. Like I said, he was arguably the best QB while he played.

This was all elite?

I present to you, every Brock Purdy interceptable pass pic.twitter.com/l3kJXi6lUg

— Parker (@ParkerLewes) January 26, 2023

now not all these throws are just on him, but some Niners fans have full on drank the kool-aid and all I'm saying is there's work to be done there. IMO the more he played he seemed to hold onto the ball a little longer. He's gotta work on that enteral clock and throw with more anticipation.

I want to also make this totally clear. I like Brock it was awesome to see the offense go with him. It wasn't all elite like you said though. I'm just keeping it real

Agenda driven and you know it. Argumentative fallacies:

• cherry picking
• strawman

You're better than this. I won't entertain this nonsense.

No idea what ny85 is doing or why.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
II dis agree that his tape doesn't show elite play. It's not the negative plays it's the positive plays that make an elite tape. And there was plenty of improvisational decision making that was clear and calm, plenty of instinctive shimmies that created time in the pocket and plenty of early recognition to get the ball downfield to playmakers who receive the ball in the end zone. That is all Elite tape. Regardless of the mistakes

You can argue about whether he's the best in the league or not but he performed as if he was one of the top 10 for sure.

The other part of the discussion is where is Trey at? That is a different discussion. Is Trey going to be ready to lead the team to wins next year? No one really knows. My guess is he would be around a 500 quarterback for us maybe a little more maybe a little less.

Is Jed going to roll with that with his 200 million dollar payroll? Probably not.

Some plays yes. Overall no. Doesn't mean he can't improve or be great. But I'm not gonna just calling him prime Montana or say he was the best QB in the league when he was playing.

Originally posted by 4ML:

"I have worked with a lot of guys, Fields, Hurts, Geno, Watson. I am more confident in Trey to make a huge leap next year than I may have ever been. 49ers fans should be excited."

QB Coach Quincy Avery

— Jessie🎙 (@JNay_LSS) February 16, 2023

I missed the live show - and it's not on youtube yet. Can someone confirm QA said this?

The interesting thing about Trey is that he's played so little he won't have as many unbreakable bad habits as some other guys.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Jcool:
I don't think he was playing at a HOF level.

Right? People love to exaggerate one way or the other.

Mahomes has a career passer rating 6 points below Brock's career passer rating. The difference, and an important one, is that Mahomes has sustained that level of play. Why are we pretending that 111 passser rating isn't HOF level play?

It's crazy to even try and compare Brock to Mahomes. Mahomes is a bigger and probably tougher athlete with better mobility and a far better arm. Mahomes has a much bigger resume. Over a long stretch, things like passer rating will tend to go up or down at h first until there is a big enough sample size. One or two good or bad games can have a huge effect on QBR when you have only played 7 games. JG looked great after his first 5 games but the more he played the more people saw his limitations and realized he wasn't more than a mid pack QB. Good but certainly not great.

I'm not comparing the two. I clearly qualify that.

I'm demonstrating that a modern era QB thought of as one of the best starts to any QB's career, who has the highest passer rating in the history of the game at 105 is still under Purdy's passer rating of 111. Meaning, Purdy has been elite while he's been on the field. Not that Purdy will be as good as Mahomes, just that his tape thusfar is elite. This should not be a difficult concept to digest and argue in good-faith.

I still have to question that thinking. Purdy has been very good in his brief time. He's showed the ability to run Kyle's offense without making mistakes but it's a small sample size. Passer rating is only one stat and it's not the best way to evaluate a QB. QBR is a little better but still relies too much on numbers and not the actual performance. Things like how difficult were the throws? Who were the receivers? What teams were they facing? What type's of passes were the 2 asked to make? These are just a few things that go into evaluating a QB.

If Purdy can continue to play like he did then he will indeed be in the upper echelon but right now he's still somewhat of a question mark. We don't know if he can continue to play like he did or will defenses recognize his weaknesses. Will he be okay after surgery or will he struggle for awhile? We don't know yet. I'm not ready to go all in on a guy that has physical limitations based on what I saw in 7 games. It was encouraging but I've been encouraged too many times only to get burned.

I completely agree. Sustaining his level of play is a huge question mark. The whole point of this argument, was that while he has been under center, he has played at an elite level. I really hope he continues to play at that level, but suspect there will be growing pains and will come back down to earth as all QBs do.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No idea what ny85 is doing or why.

I'm saying he wasn't prime Montana or playing at a HOF level. I'm saying let's calm the f**k down. I've done nothing but root for and want to see Brock play well since he stepped on the field. I don't have to go all homer and call him something he wasn't and pretend there wasn't some issues.

Before you call me a hater or whatever. All I'm doing is being objective and keeping it real. I thought he did some great things and ran the offense pretty darn well. That doesn't make you prime Montana. There is no reason to go there right now…it's dumb.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Chance:
Maybe exercise patience then if, admittedly, we don't "even know what he is."

Nah he sucks in their eyes…in their brain they setup a scenario where he could almost have zero chance to be considered good.

"he's too raw to play, gotta sit and develop for a YR"
"we can win NOW. We can't develop a QB"
"he sucks he hasn't played football"
"he wasn't Mahomes in 5QRs of football, trash"
"Lol he's only got 400 career passing attempts. He will never be good"

its thoughts like these that drive me nuts..anyone with half a brain should have understood the process for this kid. Yes he's raw, and future reps were gonna be the only way he could legit improve. These folks wouldn't give him that. They've taken 100 passing attempts and turned them into some big sample size to determine who he is. It's dumb.

Eh, that isn't what I said. That discussion was because you brought up both being raw, and that therefore Trey could be as good, and I pointed out Trey didn't have what BROCK PURDY showed (and what Mahomes had): that instant reaction after seeing the open guy. Trey showed a lot of looking and looking and looking at a wide open guy, waiting and waiting and waiting, and then throwing it (that's how it felt when I watched him. It was really just like an extra half-second to one second, but that's still an eternity). He could read the defense. He was just slower than molasses in January of reacting to the the open guy, like he was playing scared.

But if you recall I also argued that he had the character to improve, and the blank slate that would mean fewer bad habits to break.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Nope. Was to faithful.

Brock shows why you dont take a Mac in the first round. Can get a superior player in physical ability and production at 262.

Brock shows why you don't trade alot of assets for a QB. Can get a guy to run your system literally anywhere in the draft

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2021/story/_/id/31173355/all-29-s-nfl-teams-traded-draft-quarterback

If you could get a guy like that anywhere in the draft, there'd be a lot more of them.

Right? Let's just glossy over the 1,000s of QBs drafted outside of the first that amounted to nothing. Let's gloss over the overwhelming amount of 1st rd QBs that have been in the playoffs the past couple seasons.

also it wasn't that long ago that Brock was talked about as a 1st rd pick (I believe after his freshman/sophomore year) he never improved after that (actually played worse) and along with his measurables/lack of top end arm dropped. He wasn't a nobody though.

Really hoping Lance comes back strong and steps it up to show he's a legitimate QB1 option for this very talented team. The best-case scenario would be for Lance to do that and for Purdy to come back by TC with hopefully no lingering effects where they could both battle it out through TC and the preseason games. Let the best man win the job, and then you also have a good backup QB ready.

Having seen so little of Lance at QB for this team, right now would have to say Purdy, if healthy, is definitely going to be tough to beat out. Looking forward to seeing what Lance can do in stepping up and competing.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No idea what ny85 is doing or why.

I'm saying he wasn't prime Montana or playing at a HOF level. I'm saying let's calm the f**k down. I've done nothing but root for and want to see Brock play well since he stepped on the field. I don't have to go all homer and call him something he wasn't and pretend there wasn't some issues.

Before you call me a hater or whatever. All I'm doing is being objective and keeping it real. I thought he did some great things and ran the offense pretty darn well. That doesn't make you prime Montana. There is no reason to go there right now…it's dumb.

Everyone thinks they are objective. Proclaiming it doesn't make it so. 111 rating is elite play. 4:1 TD-Int ratio is elite. 65 QBR would be top 5 last year. I don't know why it's so hard to admit his tape thus far puts him among the best over that time frame. Lots of questions for such a small sample size, but so much to be excited about.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Eh, that isn't what I said. That discussion was because you brought up both being raw, and that therefore Trey could be as good, and I pointed out Trey didn't have what BROCK PURDY showed (and what Mahomes had): that instant reaction after seeing the open guy. Trey showed a lot of looking and looking and looking at a wide open guy, waiting and waiting and waiting, and then throwing it (that's how it felt when I watched him. It was really just like an extra half-second to one second, but that's still an eternity). He could read the defense. He was just slower than molasses in January of reacting to the the open guy, like he was playing scared.

But if you recall I also argued that he had the character to improve, and the blank slate that would mean fewer bad habits to break.

I never said you did say that. I don't even remember our discussion...it was more of a general statement.

I never said Lance was Mahomes…outside of the fact that they both sat for a year. I was never expecting him to toss 50tds and 5k yards like some did. I knew there was gonna be bumps and was totally fine going though all that to get to the other side.

I disagree that Brock showed that instant reaction after seeing a guy open. I don't think he throws with a ton of anticipation. He's got to get better there. When you see a lot of his poor throws it's because he's late. It's not all the time, just needs more reps playing in the NFL.

I wouldn't say Mahomes had that instant reaction either early in his career. He just had such an amazing arm that any lack of anticipation was negated with arm talent. Kap was similar, he usually had to wait until someone got open then laser beamed it in there. Mahomes has improved there for sure over the years. That comes with playing more.

Originally posted by Chance:

Everyone thinks they are objective. Proclaiming it doesn't make it so. 111 rating is elite play. 4:1 TD-Int ratio is elite. 65 QBR would be top 5 last year. I don't know why it's so hard to admit his tape thus far puts him among the best over that time frame. Lots of questions for such a small sample size, but so much to be excited about.

One would think

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Chance:
Everyone thinks they are objective. Proclaiming it doesn't make it so. 111 rating is elite play. 4:1 TD-Int ratio is elite. 65 QBR would be top 5 last year. I don't know why it's so hard to admit his tape thus far puts him among the best over that time frame. Lots of questions for such a small sample size, but so much to be excited about.

One would think

No one said they weren't excited or that Brock stunk. Saying he was prime Montana and the best QB in the league is ridiculous. It was 5 starts against some pretty bad defenses. So yeah it's okay to think Brock was/is good and also be a little objective over all of it.

Dude brings up tape than gets all pissy when I show him a bunch of bad throws. For sure he played well and those throws weren't every play. I don't think he's automatically Montana or whatever right now. Grabbing Mahomes' passer rating over the course of years, comparing it to Brock's over a couple games, and acting like that means something is the definition of confirmation bias.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Chance:
Everyone thinks they are objective. Proclaiming it doesn't make it so. 111 rating is elite play. 4:1 TD-Int ratio is elite. 65 QBR would be top 5 last year. I don't know why it's so hard to admit his tape thus far puts him among the best over that time frame. Lots of questions for such a small sample size, but so much to be excited about.

One would think

No one said they weren't excited or that Brock stunk. Saying he was prime Montana and the best QB in the league is ridiculous. It was 5 starts against some pretty bad defenses. So yeah it's okay to think Brock was/is good and also be a little objective over all of it.

Dude brings up tape than gets all pissy when I show him a bunch of bad throws. For sure he played well and those throws weren't every play. I don't think he's automatically Montana or whatever right now. Grabbing Mahomes' passer rating over the course of years, comparing it to Brock's over a couple games, and acting like that means something is the definition of confirmation bias.

You are completely misrepresenting my argument. I'm done. This is all a pretty big sidetrack anyway.