Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Thank you NY! That is exactly what I am saying here. He has the tools that Brock just doesn't have physically. Nothing against Brock here, but that is just the truth of it.

We should want Lance to succeed. This is why we traded up, giving up a bunch of future picks, and drafted him.

Treys attributes don't help him in being a good QB. They're nice to have, but what's important is the ability to play the position. You need what Brees, Brady, Montana, Manning have. That's what's more important than storng arms and running. It really can't be taught to that level, you just have to have that feel for the game. Trey has barely played the position and it's no surprise that he does not have it

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'm in the minority here, I know—But I'm excited to see how Trey Lance reacts to having to show the Niners staff something in the spring and summer. There was a lot of excitement over his start to camp in 2021. We'll see if he can rekindle some of that. https://t.co/2I5zXuBcml

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) April 6, 2023

Everyone who is a fan of the team should be excited to see Trey show something this offseason. Ideally he becomes the guy over Brock. He has all of the tools and traits that Purdy doesn't have, so I am hoping he becomes the long term guy and gets us to #6.

I agree that we should all be excited to see Trey show improvement, or at least more optimistic towards him, but I disagree on the whole tools thing. Trey may have a stronger arm or run faster but that's it. Those are also some of the least important traits towards being a top qb.

I do hope Trey can carry improved mechanics forward and have it make a difference in his play. It'll be fun to watch him and darnold duke it out.

Lance possesses tools that aren't attainable for guys like Brock. It's simply the truth of it.

What Brock does possess are things that Lance can learn to do. Those are learned traits at the QB position. Whether he can learn them is up to him.

that's what swoosh is saying and that's the difference in all of it…doesn't mean someone dislikes a certain QB or whatever.

I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Brock moves as well in the pocket and in short bursts but maybe not as fast after 10 yards and his arm is not as strong.

I am not sure vision and progressing through reads is all learnable.

We shall see.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Who is this referring to?

Take your pick lol. All our QBs benefit from that… Dude talks about cognitive processing like you're born to process coverages lol. That s**t is a learned trait. No different than playing the guitar.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:
Thank you NY! That is exactly what I am saying here. He has the tools that Brock just doesn't have physically. Nothing against Brock here, but that is just the truth of it.

We should want Lance to succeed. This is why we traded up, giving up a bunch of future picks, and drafted him.

Treys attributes don't help him in being a good QB. They're nice to have, but what's important is the ability to play the position. You need what Brees, Brady, Montana, Manning have. That's what's more important than storng arms and running. It really can't be taught to that level, you just have to have that feel for the game. Trey has barely played the position and it's no surprise that he does not have it

What tools does he really have? we don't know what he has. If Purdy was never injured this wouldn't be a debate. Trey would be a back up and that's that. If Purdy is not ready for week 1 Trey will need to be more than just ok for him to keep the job because Kyle will put Purdy back in a heart beat

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Who is this referring to?

Take your pick lol. All our QBs benefit from that… Dude talks about cognitive processing like you're born to process coverages lol. That s**t is a learned trait. No different than playing the guitar.

Ah Gotcha. I thought it was being insinuated that's all Purdy was doing

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
WHAAAAT? Cognitive processing is the holy grail of qb talent search. NO ONE can coach it. NO ONE can train it.

How many joe montana's have there been in the last forty years? 3? 4? 5?

Come on. You are on a "roll" today.

Throwing a check down to CMC or to a wide open Deebo isn't "cognitive processing" and we all know how well both these QBs tested in regards to that pre-draft. Very high. So save me one guy doesn't have high end processing anyway.

processing is absolutely a learned trait. You're not born understanding where to go if the defense is showing cover 3, zone coverage, three deep, or cover 1 or 0 pre-snap…That's s**t that's LEARNED by playing the position over and over. Like anything else in life.

Some of it is learned and some of it is talent. Mental reaction speed can only be improved so much. Vision can only be improved so much. Etc.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Brock moves as well in the pocket and in short bursts but maybe not as fast after 10 yards and his arm is not as strong.

I am not sure vision and progressing through reads is all learnable.

We shall see.

I mean where was all this elite vision and progressing through reads in his four years in college? he ran a progression based full field offense for 4 yrs. It wasn't elite QB play, that was part of the reason why he was drafted so late.

No one is saying he's not a smart dude or doesn't understand where to go on a C0 blitz. Yes he has some quick twitch in closed quarters. I don't think his ceiling is top 5 QB in the league. Love to be wrong and I got no problem eating crow…I'll eat crow all day if it means we end up with a top 5 level guy in brock. Personally I do think Lance's ceiling is that high…will he ever get close to that. Well that's up to him and this team to allow that process to play out…doesn't sound like kyle is willing to do that.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'm in the minority here, I know—But I'm excited to see how Trey Lance reacts to having to show the Niners staff something in the spring and summer. There was a lot of excitement over his start to camp in 2021. We'll see if he can rekindle some of that. https://t.co/2I5zXuBcml

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) April 6, 2023

Everyone who is a fan of the team should be excited to see Trey show something this offseason. Ideally he becomes the guy over Brock. He has all of the tools and traits that Purdy doesn't have, so I am hoping he becomes the long term guy and gets us to #6.

I agree that we should all be excited to see Trey show improvement, or at least more optimistic towards him, but I disagree on the whole tools thing. Trey may have a stronger arm or run faster but that's it. Those are also some of the least important traits towards being a top qb.

I do hope Trey can carry improved mechanics forward and have it make a difference in his play. It'll be fun to watch him and darnold duke it out.

Lance possesses tools that aren't attainable for guys like Brock. It's simply the truth of it.

What Brock does possess are things that Lance can learn to do. Those are learned traits at the QB position. Whether he can learn them is up to him.

that's what swoosh is saying and that's the difference in all of it…doesn't mean someone dislikes a certain QB or whatever.

I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Brock moves as well in the pocket and in short bursts but maybe not as fast after 10 yards and his arm is not as strong.

I am not sure vision and progressing through reads is all learnable.

We shall see.

Trey's main problem was accuracy, not processing. He is at least passable at it. I'd say he is a BETTER processor than Jimmy G, because Jmmy G doesn't process, he predetermins where he's throwing, but is clever enough to look off defenders.

That said Brock appears to be elite at it.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Some of it is learned and some of it is talent. Mental reaction speed can only be improved so much. Vision can only be improved so much. Etc.

You can have a high reaction speed/vision and be a successful formula 1 racer…that doesn't mean that formula 1 racer is gonna have that same mental reaction/vision as a NFL QB.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Lance possesses tools that aren't attainable for guys like Brock. It's simply the truth of it.

What Brock does possess are things that Lance can learn to do. Those are learned traits at the QB position. Whether he can learn them is up to him.

that's what swoosh is saying and that's the difference in all of it…doesn't mean someone dislikes a certain QB or whatever.

WHAAAAT? Cognitive processing is the holy grail of qb talent search. NO ONE can coach it. NO ONE can train it.

How many joe montana's have there been in the last forty years? 3? 4? 5?

Come on. You are on a "roll" today.

Yeah, I completely disagree with his assessment of Trey. NY acts like physical tools make or break how great a qb can be, when In reality it's the most meaningless - you just have to be good enough physically. The most important part is the mind and being smart isn't good enough. There are many variables.

There are things that either you have or you don't. What makes Mahomes great isn't his physical talent. I don't believe there are things you can just learn and be great at.

i took all the undergrad math courses and I understood them, was able to solve the problems. It took me longer and it didn't click the same way for me as others who were like computers at doing them.
its all good, time will tell. Some people like to believe anyone can learn anytbing and be great at it, it's just not true. We aren't all created equally. Genetics matter. Especially mentally.

that theory applies to things like skill positions

Originally posted by ForeverYoung8:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:
Thank you NY! That is exactly what I am saying here. He has the tools that Brock just doesn't have physically. Nothing against Brock here, but that is just the truth of it.

We should want Lance to succeed. This is why we traded up, giving up a bunch of future picks, and drafted him.

Treys attributes don't help him in being a good QB. They're nice to have, but what's important is the ability to play the position. You need what Brees, Brady, Montana, Manning have. That's what's more important than storng arms and running. It really can't be taught to that level, you just have to have that feel for the game. Trey has barely played the position and it's no surprise that he does not have it

What tools does he really have? we don't know what he has. If Purdy was never injured this wouldn't be a debate. Trey would be a back up and that's that. If Purdy is not ready for week 1 Trey will need to be more than just ok for him to keep the job because Kyle will put Purdy back in a heart beat

Physical traits. You should have highlighted the rest of my sentence. Purdy just doesn't have what Lance has there, and that's just the simple truth.

I do agree with you on Lance needing to show more than just okay to keep the job. But my overall sentiment is we should want that, we should want Lance to have that kind of growth that Purdy has shown at the position. If Lance can put it all together, we would be in good shape going forward for years to come.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Brock moves as well in the pocket and in short bursts but maybe not as fast after 10 yards and his arm is not as strong.

I am not sure vision and progressing through reads is all learnable.

We shall see.

I mean where was all this elite vision and progressing through reads in his four years in college? he ran a progression based full field offense for 4 yrs. It wasn't elite QB play, that was part of the reason why he was drafted so late.

No one is saying he's not a smart dude or doesn't understand where to go on a C0 blitz. Yes he has some quick twitch in closed quarters. I don't think his ceiling is top 5 QB in the league. Love to be wrong and i go no problem eating crow…I'll eat crow all day if it means we end up with a top 5 level guy in brock. Personally I do think Lance's ceiling is that high…will he ever get close to that. Well that's up to him and this team to allow that process to play out…doesn't sound like kyle is willing to do that.

Kyle's job is to put the best QB out there.. it's not about willingness.

Lance is going to get his shot. Can he keep the job is Lances only obstacle.

Arm Talent
This is a loose term that refers to the ability to consistently make every type of throw. By this definition, arm talent would include arm strength because it takes arm strength to make deep passes to the sideline as well as passes far downfield. This does not mean that a quarterback has to have an elite arm, but simply that he has enough arm strength to make deep and intermediate passes. Arm talent also includes accuracy, because every type of throw includes proper ball placement. One aspect of arm talent that often overlooked is touch. Certain throws require taking something off or lobbing a pass over a defender. Even though raw strength is not a factor in touch, this is not an easy skill.

For a quarterback to have arm talent, he would have to have all three of these traits. A player like Colin Kaepernick might have an amazing arm, but struggles making touch passes; therefore, he does not have arm talent, he has great arm strength. Although he has tried to work on his touch, he has not shown that he can consistently make those passes – further evidence that arm talent is an inherent trait. Aaron Rodgers, on the other hand, can make every type of throw, from amazing Hail Mary passes, to pin-point sideline passes, to seam passes that barely get over the outstretched fingertips of a linebacker. He has arm talent – maybe the best arm talent in the world.

[jwplayer file="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.mov" image="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.jpg"]

Aaron Rodgers' awkward ball carriage and footwork is on full display. Both have improved since entering the league, but you can also see his impressive arm talent that has translated into the pro game.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Taking information and processing it quickly is something that is hard to improve by the age quarterbacks enter the draft. It is difficult for college quarterbacks to transition into the NFL because they are asked to process more information much faster and then translate that into physical action. If a prospect does not have that ability, then he will fail at making sense of pertinent information quickly enough to make a successful play. This is a difficult trait for NFL teams to evaluate. Scouts can learn about a prospect's mental processing through watching film or conducting interviews and asking prospects to get up on a white board and diagram plays and progressions. The Miami Dolphins are attempting a progressive approach of evaluating mental processing ability and speed by administering a new test called the siQ (Sports IQ) with which they have found some success.The test shows an image of an offense and defense from an all-22 angle and includes a question. The amount of time it takes to answer a question counts against the final grade.

Although getting a prospect on the whiteboard isn't completely telling of his mental processing speed and ability, Jameis Winston impresses in this session with former coach, Steve Mariucci:

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Poise In The Pocket
This is the ability to remain calm in the pocket with eye discipline (keeping eyes downfield rather than on the rush) and calm feet (not maneuvering to escape unnecessarily). It is not easy to remain calm with huge defensive ends and tackles smelling blood, but all great quarterbacks have a feel for where the rush is coming from while still giving their full attention to reading the secondary and finding open receivers. This trait is extremely hard to improve if a prospect does not show it in his college film, because the game gets much faster and more complicated in the NFL. If a prospect does not show great poise and feel in the pocket in college, then it is highly unlikely he'll learn this trait in the NFL.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Clutch FactorThe ability to make good decisions and big plays when the game is on the line is inherent in some passers. Quarterbacks are made famous or infamous based on their two-minute drives. How does a prospect handle the pressure of having to win a game with the last drive of the game? The NFL is a competitive league and many games are decided by a touchdown or less, which means the game may be put into the quarterback's hands. You want a guy who is able to handle the pressure. Some quarterbacks are better equipped to handle that pressure and focus on what matters, while others will wilt under it. If a college quarterback isn't making plays when the lights are brightest, it is extremely hard for him to start when he reaches the NFL where the pressure is even greater.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

Originally posted by krizay:

Arm Talent
This is a loose term that refers to the ability to consistently make every type of throw. By this definition, arm talent would include arm strength because it takes arm strength to make deep passes to the sideline as well as passes far downfield. This does not mean that a quarterback has to have an elite arm, but simply that he has enough arm strength to make deep and intermediate passes. Arm talent also includes accuracy, because every type of throw includes proper ball placement. One aspect of arm talent that often overlooked is touch. Certain throws require taking something off or lobbing a pass over a defender. Even though raw strength is not a factor in touch, this is not an easy skill.

For a quarterback to have arm talent, he would have to have all three of these traits. A player like Colin Kaepernick might have an amazing arm, but struggles making touch passes; therefore, he does not have arm talent, he has great arm strength. Although he has tried to work on his touch, he has not shown that he can consistently make those passes – further evidence that arm talent is an inherent trait. Aaron Rodgers, on the other hand, can make every type of throw, from amazing Hail Mary passes, to pin-point sideline passes, to seam passes that barely get over the outstretched fingertips of a linebacker. He has arm talent – maybe the best arm talent in the world.

[jwplayer file="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.mov" image="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.jpg"]

Aaron Rodgers' awkward ball carriage and footwork is on full display. Both have improved since entering the league, but you can also see his impressive arm talent that has translated into the pro game.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Taking information and processing it quickly is something that is hard to improve by the age quarterbacks enter the draft. It is difficult for college quarterbacks to transition into the NFL because they are asked to process more information much faster and then translate that into physical action. If a prospect does not have that ability, then he will fail at making sense of pertinent information quickly enough to make a successful play. This is a difficult trait for NFL teams to evaluate. Scouts can learn about a prospect's mental processing through watching film or conducting interviews and asking prospects to get up on a white board and diagram plays and progressions. The Miami Dolphins are attempting a progressive approach of evaluating mental processing ability and speed by administering a new test called the siQ (Sports IQ) with which they have found some success.The test shows an image of an offense and defense from an all-22 angle and includes a question. The amount of time it takes to answer a question counts against the final grade.

Although getting a prospect on the whiteboard isn't completely telling of his mental processing speed and ability, Jameis Winston impresses in this session with former coach, Steve Mariucci:

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Poise In The Pocket
This is the ability to remain calm in the pocket with eye discipline (keeping eyes downfield rather than on the rush) and calm feet (not maneuvering to escape unnecessarily). It is not easy to remain calm with huge defensive ends and tackles smelling blood, but all great quarterbacks have a feel for where the rush is coming from while still giving their full attention to reading the secondary and finding open receivers. This trait is extremely hard to improve if a prospect does not show it in his college film, because the game gets much faster and more complicated in the NFL. If a prospect does not show great poise and feel in the pocket in college, then it is highly unlikely he'll learn this trait in the NFL.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Clutch FactorThe ability to make good decisions and big plays when the game is on the line is inherent in some passers. Quarterbacks are made famous or infamous based on their two-minute drives. How does a prospect handle the pressure of having to win a game with the last drive of the game? The NFL is a competitive league and many games are decided by a touchdown or less, which means the game may be put into the quarterback's hands. You want a guy who is able to handle the pressure. Some quarterbacks are better equipped to handle that pressure and focus on what matters, while others will wilt under it. If a college quarterback isn't making plays when the lights are brightest, it is extremely hard for him to start when he reaches the NFL where the pressure is even greater.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

Quality post. I'm thinking when looking at this next crop or any crop of QBs. Look at the poise in the pocket. In other words, would be nice to have a cutup of plays where there is a free rusher, not a clean pocket, etc. How is the QB doing in that situation? What is the guy doing in situations where everyone is covered up? BP just did a master class he had announcers jaws dropping with that juke of a rusher while keeping eyes downfield and hitting I believe Deebo, see first half Tampa Bay game, and was doing it all year. High level trait, I want to see from TL also.