Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by tankle104:
Yeah, I completely disagree with his assessment of Trey. NY acts like physical tools make or break how great a qb can be, when In reality it's the most meaningless - you just have to be good enough physically. The most important part is the mind and being smart isn't good enough. There are many variables.

There are things that either you have or you don't. What makes Mahomes great isn't his physical talent. I don't believe there are things you can just learn and be great at.

i took all the undergrad math courses and I understood them, was able to solve the problems. It took me longer and it didn't click the same way for me as others who were like computers at doing them.
its all good, time will tell. Some people like to believe anyone can learn anytbing and be great at it, it's just not true. We aren't all created equally. Genetics matter. Especially mentally.

that theory applies to things like skill positions

Well this is factually not true. If you don't have an NFL legit arm. You can't not play in the NFL. If you're massively undersized. You can't play in the NFL. There are exceptions…but those are not the norm. You need to be elite elsewhere.

Lol what makes Mahomes elite is in fact is his physical tools. His MVP year he couldn't even read defenses and said that.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by krizay:

Arm Talent
This is a loose term that refers to the ability to consistently make every type of throw. By this definition, arm talent would include arm strength because it takes arm strength to make deep passes to the sideline as well as passes far downfield. This does not mean that a quarterback has to have an elite arm, but simply that he has enough arm strength to make deep and intermediate passes. Arm talent also includes accuracy, because every type of throw includes proper ball placement. One aspect of arm talent that often overlooked is touch. Certain throws require taking something off or lobbing a pass over a defender. Even though raw strength is not a factor in touch, this is not an easy skill.

For a quarterback to have arm talent, he would have to have all three of these traits. A player like Colin Kaepernick might have an amazing arm, but struggles making touch passes; therefore, he does not have arm talent, he has great arm strength. Although he has tried to work on his touch, he has not shown that he can consistently make those passes – further evidence that arm talent is an inherent trait. Aaron Rodgers, on the other hand, can make every type of throw, from amazing Hail Mary passes, to pin-point sideline passes, to seam passes that barely get over the outstretched fingertips of a linebacker. He has arm talent – maybe the best arm talent in the world.

[jwplayer file="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.mov" image="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.jpg"]

Aaron Rodgers' awkward ball carriage and footwork is on full display. Both have improved since entering the league, but you can also see his impressive arm talent that has translated into the pro game.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Taking information and processing it quickly is something that is hard to improve by the age quarterbacks enter the draft. It is difficult for college quarterbacks to transition into the NFL because they are asked to process more information much faster and then translate that into physical action. If a prospect does not have that ability, then he will fail at making sense of pertinent information quickly enough to make a successful play. This is a difficult trait for NFL teams to evaluate. Scouts can learn about a prospect's mental processing through watching film or conducting interviews and asking prospects to get up on a white board and diagram plays and progressions. The Miami Dolphins are attempting a progressive approach of evaluating mental processing ability and speed by administering a new test called the siQ (Sports IQ) with which they have found some success.The test shows an image of an offense and defense from an all-22 angle and includes a question. The amount of time it takes to answer a question counts against the final grade.

Although getting a prospect on the whiteboard isn't completely telling of his mental processing speed and ability, Jameis Winston impresses in this session with former coach, Steve Mariucci:

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Poise In The Pocket
This is the ability to remain calm in the pocket with eye discipline (keeping eyes downfield rather than on the rush) and calm feet (not maneuvering to escape unnecessarily). It is not easy to remain calm with huge defensive ends and tackles smelling blood, but all great quarterbacks have a feel for where the rush is coming from while still giving their full attention to reading the secondary and finding open receivers. This trait is extremely hard to improve if a prospect does not show it in his college film, because the game gets much faster and more complicated in the NFL. If a prospect does not show great poise and feel in the pocket in college, then it is highly unlikely he'll learn this trait in the NFL.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Clutch FactorThe ability to make good decisions and big plays when the game is on the line is inherent in some passers. Quarterbacks are made famous or infamous based on their two-minute drives. How does a prospect handle the pressure of having to win a game with the last drive of the game? The NFL is a competitive league and many games are decided by a touchdown or less, which means the game may be put into the quarterback's hands. You want a guy who is able to handle the pressure. Some quarterbacks are better equipped to handle that pressure and focus on what matters, while others will wilt under it. If a college quarterback isn't making plays when the lights are brightest, it is extremely hard for him to start when he reaches the NFL where the pressure is even greater.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

Quality post. I'm thinking when looking at this next crop or any crop of QBs. Look at the poise in the pocket. In other words, would be nice to have a cutup of plays where there is a free rusher, not a clean pocket, etc. How is the QB doing in that situation? What is the guy doing in situations where everyone is covered up? BP just did a master class he had announcers jaws dropping with that juke of a rusher while keeping eyes downfield and hitting I believe Deebo, see first half Tampa Bay game, and was doing it all year. High level trait, I want to see from TL also.

I don't understand why folks can adamantly say Lance has these traits. I'm not saying he doesn't, but nothing in his film shows any sort of consistency because of where he played in college. Most, if not all, of his touchdowns in colleges were wide open passes. He never, or very rarely, has to carry his team to victories. Etc. it's why he didn't have any picks, and has thrown so many early in his career.

i really do hope he shows he has these traits but it's always confused me how people "know" when it's really only a few plays overall in his entire history of playing. There is just an extraordinary amount of unknown and nothing physical can overcome those things. Either you have it or you don't.

jsut about everyone in the nfl can make all the throws, it's more than just that. A broken clock is right twice a day, doesn't mean it can tell the time.

i am excited to see he looks like his mechanics are being improved upon. Hopefully it helps expedite his learning curve.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by tankle104:
Yeah, I completely disagree with his assessment of Trey. NY acts like physical tools make or break how great a qb can be, when In reality it's the most meaningless - you just have to be good enough physically. The most important part is the mind and being smart isn't good enough. There are many variables.

There are things that either you have or you don't. What makes Mahomes great isn't his physical talent. I don't believe there are things you can just learn and be great at.

i took all the undergrad math courses and I understood them, was able to solve the problems. It took me longer and it didn't click the same way for me as others who were like computers at doing them.
its all good, time will tell. Some people like to believe anyone can learn anytbing and be great at it, it's just not true. We aren't all created equally. Genetics matter. Especially mentally.

that theory applies to things like skill positions

Well this is factually not true. If you don't have an NFL legit arm. You can't not play in the NFL. If you're massively undersized. You can't play in the NFL. There are exceptions…but those are not the norm. You need to be elite elsewhere.

Lol what makes Mahomes elite is in fact is his physical tools. His MVP year he couldn't even read defenses and said that.

Did you miss the part where I said it just needs to be good enough?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Brock moves as well in the pocket and in short bursts but maybe not as fast after 10 yards and his arm is not as strong.

I am not sure vision and progressing through reads is all learnable.

We shall see.

I mean where was all this elite vision and progressing through reads in his four years in college? he ran a progression based full field offense for 4 yrs. It wasn't elite QB play, that was part of the reason why he was drafted so late.

No one is saying he's not a smart dude or doesn't understand where to go on a C0 blitz. Yes he has some quick twitch in closed quarters. I don't think his ceiling is top 5 QB in the league. Love to be wrong and I got no problem eating crow…I'll eat crow all day if it means we end up with a top 5 level guy in brock. Personally I do think Lance's ceiling is that high…will he ever get close to that. Well that's up to him and this team to allow that process to play out…doesn't sound like kyle is willing to do that.

He played like a top 5 QB in the games he started. How is his ceiling not what's on his tape?

the question for me is, can he come back healthy with as strong an arm as before the injury? Can he continue to play at the level or better he did before he got injured, for a full season? If both those questions are answered yes, then we have a top 5 QB on our hands.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Quality post. I'm thinking when looking at this next crop or any crop of QBs. Look at the poise in the pocket. In other words, would be nice to have a cutup of plays where there is a free rusher, not a clean pocket, etc. How is the QB doing in that situation? What is the guy doing in situations where everyone is covered up? BP just did a master class he had announcers jaws dropping with that juke of a rusher while keeping eyes downfield and hitting I believe Deebo, see first half Tampa Bay game, and was doing it all year. High level trait, I want to see from TL also.

Crazy you say that. In 21, I was a well documented Mac fan. I kept reading the off schedule posts and rolled my eyes. The more and more I youtubed him the more and more I seen what some were saying.

I actually flipped to Justin Fields kind of for that reason. Then when Fields epilepsy report came out I was back to Mac.

As I watched Mac in the pros I see that is a legit weakness in his game.

1st time I can say I ever paid attention to that aspect

Originally posted by krizay:

Arm Talent
This is a loose term that refers to the ability to consistently make every type of throw. By this definition, arm talent would include arm strength because it takes arm strength to make deep passes to the sideline as well as passes far downfield. This does not mean that a quarterback has to have an elite arm, but simply that he has enough arm strength to make deep and intermediate passes. Arm talent also includes accuracy, because every type of throw includes proper ball placement. One aspect of arm talent that often overlooked is touch. Certain throws require taking something off or lobbing a pass over a defender. Even though raw strength is not a factor in touch, this is not an easy skill.

For a quarterback to have arm talent, he would have to have all three of these traits. A player like Colin Kaepernick might have an amazing arm, but struggles making touch passes; therefore, he does not have arm talent, he has great arm strength. Although he has tried to work on his touch, he has not shown that he can consistently make those passes – further evidence that arm talent is an inherent trait. Aaron Rodgers, on the other hand, can make every type of throw, from amazing Hail Mary passes, to pin-point sideline passes, to seam passes that barely get over the outstretched fingertips of a linebacker. He has arm talent – maybe the best arm talent in the world.

[jwplayer file="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.mov" image="http://cdn.insidethepylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Rodgers-College.jpg"]

Aaron Rodgers' awkward ball carriage and footwork is on full display. Both have improved since entering the league, but you can also see his impressive arm talent that has translated into the pro game.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Taking information and processing it quickly is something that is hard to improve by the age quarterbacks enter the draft. It is difficult for college quarterbacks to transition into the NFL because they are asked to process more information much faster and then translate that into physical action. If a prospect does not have that ability, then he will fail at making sense of pertinent information quickly enough to make a successful play. This is a difficult trait for NFL teams to evaluate. Scouts can learn about a prospect's mental processing through watching film or conducting interviews and asking prospects to get up on a white board and diagram plays and progressions. The Miami Dolphins are attempting a progressive approach of evaluating mental processing ability and speed by administering a new test called the siQ (Sports IQ) with which they have found some success.The test shows an image of an offense and defense from an all-22 angle and includes a question. The amount of time it takes to answer a question counts against the final grade.

Although getting a prospect on the whiteboard isn't completely telling of his mental processing speed and ability, Jameis Winston impresses in this session with former coach, Steve Mariucci:

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Poise In The Pocket
This is the ability to remain calm in the pocket with eye discipline (keeping eyes downfield rather than on the rush) and calm feet (not maneuvering to escape unnecessarily). It is not easy to remain calm with huge defensive ends and tackles smelling blood, but all great quarterbacks have a feel for where the rush is coming from while still giving their full attention to reading the secondary and finding open receivers. This trait is extremely hard to improve if a prospect does not show it in his college film, because the game gets much faster and more complicated in the NFL. If a prospect does not show great poise and feel in the pocket in college, then it is highly unlikely he'll learn this trait in the NFL.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

Clutch FactorThe ability to make good decisions and big plays when the game is on the line is inherent in some passers. Quarterbacks are made famous or infamous based on their two-minute drives. How does a prospect handle the pressure of having to win a game with the last drive of the game? The NFL is a competitive league and many games are decided by a touchdown or less, which means the game may be put into the quarterback's hands. You want a guy who is able to handle the pressure. Some quarterbacks are better equipped to handle that pressure and focus on what matters, while others will wilt under it. If a college quarterback isn't making plays when the lights are brightest, it is extremely hard for him to start when he reaches the NFL where the pressure is even greater.

Verdict: Inherent Trait

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

Why didn't you post all of it?

accuracy-Attainable Trait
reading a Defense-Attainable Skill
throwing mechanics-Attainable Skill
Decision-Making-hung jury

You've told me you can't become more accurate?

and I'll debate all day having the ability to read coverages pre/post will improve your processing speed.

Also if Brock is so proficient at cognitive processing…why was that an issue in college? Did he just magically figure it out the moment he stepped in?

Poise: Purdy does not respond well to pressure. His first reaction to pressure is to escape the pocket and attempt to pick up yardage with his feet. At times under pressure, Purdy will force an unwarranted pass into coverage that at best becomes an incomplete pass.

Progressions: Purdy operates in a progression-based offense that works all levels of the field. Purdy struggles to comfortably work through all of his progressions. In most situations, Purdy gets stuck on his first option, and if that receiver isn't open he instantly looks for his check-down.

Release: Purdy's release can use some improvement. In the pocket, Purdy holds the ball low which means that at the time of his decision to throw, he has to first raise the ball and then release it. This affects him when trying to throw timing routes, often making the ball arrive late to the receiver.

Originally posted by Chance:
He played like a top 5 QB in the games he started. How is his ceiling not what's on his tape?

the question for me is, can he come back healthy with as strong an arm as before the injury? Can he continue to play at the level or better he did before he got injured, for a full season? If both those questions are answered yes, then we have a top 5 QB on our hands.

Hennicke had a 7 game stretch of high end play back in 2021 with by far less talent. Case Keenum had a whole season in Minn back in 2017 of similar play. I'm not saying that's who he is…I just need a larger sample size.

I don't think the injury, if given the proper time to heal, will be an issue…but it's not like it's some well documented thing among QBs. I question if he can maintain that level of play. We all thought the same thing with jimmy in 2017 (people were unwilling to look at any of the question marks there). He never really improved there. The more film of him showed more deficiencies and yes health didn't help him either.

we will see. I hope he turns into Burrow 2.0.

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Originally posted by ForeverYoung8:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Thank you NY! That is exactly what I am saying here. He has the tools that Brock just doesn't have physically. Nothing against Brock here, but that is just the truth of it.

We should want Lance to succeed. This is why we traded up, giving up a bunch of future picks, and drafted him.

Treys attributes don't help him in being a good QB. They're nice to have, but what's important is the ability to play the position. You need what Brees, Brady, Montana, Manning have. That's what's more important than storng arms and running. It really can't be taught to that level, you just have to have that feel for the game. Trey has barely played the position and it's no surprise that he does not have it

What tools does he really have? we don't know what he has. If Purdy was never injured this wouldn't be a debate. Trey would be a back up and that's that. If Purdy is not ready for week 1 Trey will need to be more than just ok for him to keep the job because Kyle will put Purdy back in a heart beat

Physical traits. You should have highlighted the rest of my sentence. Purdy just doesn't have what Lance has there, and that's just the simple truth.

I do agree with you on Lance needing to show more than just okay to keep the job. But my overall sentiment is we should want that, we should want Lance to have that kind of growth that Purdy has shown at the position. If Lance can put it all together, we would be in good shape going forward for years to come.

Drew Brees never had what Lance has. Drew Brees could be bigger, faster, and have a stronger arm. That still wouldn't be what made him great though. What made him great is harder to teach than you think. Usually you either have it at that level or you don't. It doesn't matter how strong your arm is or how fast you are, that's not important

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
Drew Brees never had what Lance has. Drew Brees could be bigger, faster, and have a stronger arm. That still wouldn't be what made him great though. What made him great is harder to teach than you think. Usually you either have it at that level or you don't. It doesn't matter how strong your arm is or how fast you are, that's not important

He had it so much the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers to replace him.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
WHAAAAT? Cognitive processing is the holy grail of qb talent search. NO ONE can coach it. NO ONE can train it.

How many joe montana's have there been in the last forty years? 3? 4? 5?

Come on. You are on a "roll" today.

Throwing a check down to CMC or to a wide open Deebo isn't "cognitive processing" and we all know how well both these QBs tested in regards to that pre-draft. Very high. So save me one guy doesn't have high end processing anyway.

processing is absolutely a learned trait. You're not born understanding where to go if the defense is showing cover 3, zone coverage, three deep, or cover 1 or 0 pre-snap…That's s**t that's LEARNED by playing the position over and over. Like anything else in life.

Your talking about pedagogical learning. Sport specific ideas expressed in language. Thats what athletes do with film indtruction, reading playbook, listening to coaches precepts.

The part of the brain that stores and cognitively processes language SHUTS DOWN when the ball is snapped. The athlete no longer references pedagogical concepts when they running for their lives.

That is an important distinction. Which influences athlete performance and training methodology.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Drew Brees never had what Lance has. Drew Brees could be bigger, faster, and have a stronger arm. That still wouldn't be what made him great though. What made him great is harder to teach than you think. Usually you either have it at that level or you don't. It doesn't matter how strong your arm is or how fast you are, that's not important

He had it so much the Chargers drafted Philip Rivers to replace him.

They'd probably see big strong arm Trey as a good replacement too. They made a mistake valuing physical over mental. Same thing Trey fans are doing

Not sure why there always has to be this line in the sand when it comes to 49ers QBs. One faction faction feeling the need to downplay one QB to prop up the other while the other faction b***hes about it yet does the exact same thing. Lol it's ridiculous

I hope Trey's heart isn't broken if he has to move on.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Your talking about pedagogical learning. Sport specific ideas expressed in language. Thats what athletes do with film indtruction, reading playbook, listening to coaches precepts.

The part of the brain that stores and cognitively processes language SHUTS DOWN when the ball is snapped. The athlete no longer references pedagogical concepts when they running for their lives.

That is an important distinction. Which influences athlete performance and training methodology.

So why did Brock's cognitive process not good in college? Part of the reason he was the last pick in the draft was because he wasn't good there.

here's his scouting report

Poise: Purdy does not respond well to pressure. His first reaction to pressure is to escape the pocket and attempt to pick up yardage with his feet. At times under pressure, Purdy will force an unwarranted pass into coverage that at best becomes an incomplete pass.

Progressions: Purdy operates in a progression-based offense that works all levels of the field. Purdy struggles to comfortably work through all of his progressions. In most situations, Purdy gets stuck on his first option, and if that receiver isn't open he instantly looks for his check-down.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Not sure why there always has to be this line in the sand when it comes to 49ers QBs. One faction faction feeling the need to downplay one QB to prop up the other while the other faction b***hes about it yet does the exact same thing. Lol it's ridiculous

I don't give a f**k who's the starting QB as long as they're good. And I'm not talking about middle of the league starter. I want a guy that we can all agree is an elite level guy and the starter for years.