Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Your talking about pedagogical learning. Sport specific ideas expressed in language. Thats what athletes do with film indtruction, reading playbook, listening to coaches precepts.

The part of the brain that stores and cognitively processes language SHUTS DOWN when the ball is snapped. The athlete no longer references pedagogical concepts when they running for their lives.

That is an important distinction. Which influences athlete performance and training methodology.

So why did Brock's cognitive process not good in college? Part of the reason he was the last pick in the draft was because he wasn't good there.

here's his scouting report

Poise: Purdy does not respond well to pressure. His first reaction to pressure is to escape the pocket and attempt to pick up yardage with his feet. At times under pressure, Purdy will force an unwarranted pass into coverage that at best becomes an incomplete pass.

Progressions: Purdy operates in a progression-based offense that works all levels of the field. Purdy struggles to comfortably work through all of his progressions. In most situations, Purdy gets stuck on his first option, and if that receiver isn't open he instantly looks for his check-down.

He wasn't good? He started all four years.

He was drafted last because he had an average arm and small hands. Like joe.

My guess is that the scouting report is wrong or off base. Does the scout know what the play requires and what the coach is yelling? Probably not.

Also, athletes improve with experience...by playing not so mich through verbal instruction. The point is, cognitive performance cant be coached up or talked up.

Purdy also increased his arm strength significantly between the off season of his senior year and rookie year.

he had mediocre talent around him playing with the big dogs. He had to overcompensate and he's admitted that led to him making huge mistakes that cost the team.

look what he did against Texas - he actually threw a great ball to win the game but his receiver couldn't hold onto it and let the defender rip it out. That composure, poise, clutchness is special.

imagine Trey playing against Texas on Iowa state. Lol Purdy literally carried them to relevance

Originally posted by BOI49er:
If he can't beat out Darnold, or if the FO in fact doesn't think that is likely by the draft, he'd have more trade value now than after he falls further down our depth chart, has fewer years left on his contract, and the new team would be facing a $20m option year just to get a chance to try him out or go naked on a one year deal. That value is just about zero. Now, he's a very high pick that's just been injured and untried and superseded by a phenom, and there is still value there.

Like I said to Smokey, it's a matter of degrees. While I think you are correct in terrms of value (more now / less later), we are talking low value now versus minimal value later. And, when you take that into consideration, why trade him? A competent third QB on the 49ers, while unheard of before last year, might actually be a wise investment for this franchise.

If I am looking at this from an outside perspective looking to trade for Trey, a top (probably best) offensive mind in Kyle produced very little with Trey. Trey's play wasn't horrible, but when you look at what Brock did, and then look at what Trey did, you have to wonder what's up. And, given that wherever Trey would go, his OC will likely be inferior to Kyle, why am I giving up a ton for that? For potential? I haven't seen enough from Trey to risk my neck on his potential. You take those risks in the draft. And that's coming from someone who likes Trey. You won't see my history littered with Trey pessimism / hate.

I just don't see the point in any of these trade suggestions. There is no (or very little) value there. In fact, there is more (albeit, perhaps minimal) value for the 49ers to keep Trey. And Genus has already laid out the reasons a trade is so very unlikely, regardless of what John et. al. might be saying to the public.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
I wouldn't put Manning in any of these TL convos.. if you are talking Peyton Manning, he was a 4 year SEC starter, son of an NFL QB, and a generational prospect. He was drafted to a team that earned #1 overall, and put up near 4k yards and 26 pass TDs. Realize Joe or Steve never hit 4k yards in their careers in that era.. so he essentially matched (or came close) to their highest single season yards output, year 1. In fact his completions, attempts, yards and TDs were all rookie NFL records for a QB. Finished 2nd in ROY voting, to rookie Randy Moss.

Steve had 2 years where he hit over 4,000 yards in 1993 and 1998.

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'm in the minority here, I know—But I'm excited to see how Trey Lance reacts to having to show the Niners staff something in the spring and summer. There was a lot of excitement over his start to camp in 2021. We'll see if he can rekindle some of that. https://t.co/2I5zXuBcml

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) April 6, 2023

Everyone who is a fan of the team should be excited to see Trey show something this offseason. Ideally he becomes the guy over Brock. He has all of the tools and traits that Purdy doesn't have, so I am hoping he becomes the long term guy and gets us to #6.

I wouldn't say its ideal if Trey is the future over Brock, because ultimately I want the better QB long term, regardless of their tools.

I just fear that we may never get a good look at Lance if Purdy remains healthy this year.

This.

That is my only fear as well. I want to get a good look at Lance before I'm willing to give Brock the keys long term. But if he is healthy and starts then we don't get a good look at Lance and he may get traded before we do.

God forbid Trey balls for another team and wins a SB before we do.

I'd be livid and be so pissed at Shanalynch. Would be unforgivable. They trade Lance he better suck or be mediocre on his next team.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
They'd probably see big strong arm Trey as a good replacement too. They made a mistake valuing physical over mental. Same thing Trey fans are doing

Or they saw a guy who wasn't accurate with a limited physical skillset who they didn't trust to be the guy. The mental part developed once he got with Sean Payton. It wasn't "Always There". It had to be brought out.

Chargers saw a small QB with limited arm strength and thought he couldn't be great. They were wrong

Did Payton get it out of his boy Taysom Hill? You either have it or you don't

Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers... all of them should receive the "doesn't have it" label if you base all your opinions about player for their first year.

And Trey has less than that.

I can tell by watching him. I don't think it's impossible to improve, but these are the kinds of things you pray happens when you don't have a guy that's already showing these traits. With Trey basically playing no real football outside of a few games with us, he's so far off I think the FO has kinda waved the white flag. If he blows them away of course he'll play, but Kyle and John's actions show they don't think that is likely

IMO nearly all of Trey's issues are directly correlated to lack of experience. His timing and rhythm in the offense, the mechanical problems with his footwork which causes accuracy issues and so on.

What I don't get is people making comments like "made a mistake valuing physical over mental" acting as if Trey is some meathead. He was widely considered one of the smartest QBs in the draft. Was he not? I mean, when you listen to him, like really listen to him, IMO he comes off as a very intelligent young man. I don't think you have to pretend that Purdy is the only player with brains and Trey is all brawn. I just don't understand why some posters constantly downplay the QB they don't like.

So far from what I've seen, Purdy has enough physical and mental ability to be a very very good starting QB. He deserves to be the "leader of the clubhouse" as Lynch describes it and I'll be happy as anyone if he takes the job and never looks back because that means we're winning.

I also don't think having a stronger arm or being faster makes Trey the ideal franchise QB over Purdy. Some people are arguing that Trey's physical tools are enough reason for him to be the more desirable franchise QB for the future. I don't agree with that. I want the best QB. Period.

But I do think posters like yourself are making too many definitive claims about Trey after 3 games and that Trey has a lot more potential in areas where people are already writing him off.

Essentially I think Lance's mental ability is underrated when compared to Purdy, and Purdy's physical ability is underrated when compared to Lance.

I believe in both QBs a lot, they both have a lot of promise, but I also acknowledge that Lance should be feeling a lot pressure since he hasn't shown nearly as much on the field.

People keep bringing up Lances physical traits as to why Purdy could never be him, that's where the valuing physical over mental comes from.

We are talking mental on a football field. How do you process and read the field while under the pressure of NFL defenses? That guy playing for the Titans is a rocket scientist or something, but get a few lineman chasing after him and he suddenly doesn't seem so smart. I don't think anyone is knocking Treys intelligence when they say Brock plays smarter

I could have gotten the context of your post wrong. Because I think we're essentially saying the same thing in regards to Lance's physical traits not equaling a higher ceiling.

I meant to include Lance's mental ability on the field, not just off of it, as being an area people are potentially underestimating.

I would just say it's not fair to assume Lance doesn't have "it" yet, I think he could shock some people with his mental ability on the field. He just needs reps. Whether or not he gets them is the question. I'd just rather him not getting reps due to Brock playing and playing well vs him having another injury or starting Darnold.

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:

Originally posted by mayo49:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:
We still don't even know if Purdy was just a flash in the pan. We really don't know what we got long term with him either.

If Purdy does end up flopping and Trey never develops, it's gonna be ugly for the current regime.

Sam Darnold to the rescue in that case, it's why we hired him

It's a gamble, and they could get egg in their face, but they have to take a chance from what Brock has shown so far.

If Lance shows he can ball and Brock is still out, we have to ride the hot hand with the guy we drafted #3. He was drafted to be the guy, so if he shows he can take the job, then it should be his.

But all of our current QB's seem to be injury-prone, so we will probably have all playing at some point next year .

I know we have to ride the hot hand, but Dirty has earned the right to be the starter. He can ride a hot hand, too, Just as well as Trey.

Lol no. IF... Trey balls out you stick with him over Brock until he doesn't. IF... Trey balls out he earns the right to be the starter no different than Brock when he balled out.

Now if Brock was healthy and ready for Week 1 than sure you could say he earned it but this isn't about what someone earns or does not earn. It's about who projects to be the more elite qb long term. If that's Brock great. Which is why I hope Brock is 100% and ready to go by mid-season so we get a better look at Trey first- otherwise we get no further look at Trey before we have to decide on him and that is unwise imo.

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:
This.

That is my only fear as well. I want to get a good look at Lance before I'm willing to give Brock the keys long term. But if he is healthy and starts then we don't get a good look at Lance and he may get traded before we do.

God forbid Trey balls for another team and wins a SB before we do.

I'd be livid and be so pissed at Shanalynch. Would be unforgivable. They trade Lance he better suck or be mediocre on his next team.

Common sense tells anyone that the QB is the most important position on the team. One of your first priorities should be to find groom and play your franchise QB. Realistically for what we spent on Trey I now realize he should have started year one and we should have taken our lumps and have traded Jimmy the same year Trey was drafted. By now we would know what we have just as PHI did with Jalen Hurts. We kept spouting this win now crap and we have not won s***!

There is no guarantee in sports and if we knew Jimmy was not gonna ever get it done vs Mahomes then we needed to move on then and went all in on the next guy. Once you solidify the QB position you then have a window as Joe Burrow said spanning his career under center. Yes we have a tremendous record in 3 of the last 4 years but we have added zero Lombardi trophies so we are now in Jim Harbaugh territory right now. We want Walsh and Seifert and we better find start and play a QB that is gonna beat Hurts and beat Mahomes. Even if it takes a couple more years I want us to get it done and not just look for the next Kirk Cousins

SMH

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
They'd probably see big strong arm Trey as a good replacement too. They made a mistake valuing physical over mental. Same thing Trey fans are doing

Or they saw a guy who wasn't accurate with a limited physical skillset who they didn't trust to be the guy. The mental part developed once he got with Sean Payton. It wasn't "Always There". It had to be brought out.

Chargers saw a small QB with limited arm strength and thought he couldn't be great. They were wrong

Did Payton get it out of his boy Taysom Hill? You either have it or you don't

Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers... all of them should receive the "doesn't have it" label if you base all your opinions about player for their first year.

And Trey has less than that.

Not at all. Lol if you watched them play early on, it was clear they had it and just needed some more in game experience to work out the kinks of learning the nfl game. Mahommes was blowing everyone away in practice his rookie year. Manning is manning, Rodgers did benefit a lot from sitting - he reworked his throwing motion and mechanics etc.

it is true that Lance has such a small sample size that we really don't know, can't make any concrete stances. We can only go off of the little we've seen from him and it hasn't been very good.

What gets me about him is the commentary from guys like kittle before last season began - it says that they don't have much faith in him.

idk if Lance will be any good. We will have to wait and see, but my preference would be to not see him play unless Purdy isn't fully recovered. Who knows what will happen.

Like when Kittle compared Trey to Josh Allen? What comments are you talking about?

And Manning was not Manning right away, neither was Rodgers. The argument was the "you either have it, or you don't" and I just think that's a vast oversimplification on so many levels.

Or when kittle & others said (I'm paraphrasing cause I don't feel like looking it up) "we will have to help him out and as long as he doesn't throw multiple picks, we should be okay". That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

that sticks with me because demeco Ryan's has said how a bunch of the defensive players and others came up to him In camp raving about Purdy and how he has "it".

if I was hearing that from players or reporters saying they're hearing that from players about Lance, it would be different. Only time you usually see people saying good things about Lance is at scheduled press conferences where they're coached up on what not to say or they're careful what they say on scheduled podcasts.

im not saying no one believe in him. It's a big roster and everyone will have different opinions, just like on here, but based on what I've heard/seen from kittle, bosa, Warner, as well as multiple reporters saying that the players are much quicker to praise Purdy in comparison to Lance - says a lot to me. They tend to just give prototype standard answers about Lance because you'd have to be a real POS to publically talk negative about a teammate.

i don't want to get into a debate about this cause we can't read peoples minds and don't know them personally. I'm just giving my takeaways and interpretations. If/when Lance plays, I'll 1000% be supporting him and won't be just waiting for him to make a bad play so I can trash on him. I just don't have the same confidence in him as others, that's all it is. I still hope he balls. All I really want is a FQB. I just don't see it in what I've seen from Lance over the course of his entire football career - highschool/college/NFL

There's no doubt in my mind that Purdy made a better first impression on the field than Lance did. I just don't put much weight into the "he has the it factor" comments, because those come out after a long win streak and ultimately, players can change their teammates opinion of them, and that starts with playing games and performing well. I don't think Trey's teammates view him negatively at all, I assume they just believe in Purdy more because he proved it.

As far as the comment, I feel like we could just as easily say Kittle believes Trey will be a top 5 QB since he compared him to Josh Allen, I just don't think that's accurate either.

The only difference is that Trey is the only QB out of the three that has yet to build up any equity with the fans because he's only won 1 game he started and finished. For that reason, I personally feel like he deserves the most support since most fans have no problem making fun of him or mocking his tenure so far, because he's such an unknown.

All I've argued for was some patience. I don't expect him to start over Purdy, and I don't expect fans to believe in him more than Purdy or Jimmy for that matter. But he doesn't deserve the amount of criticism he gets IMO. Not yet anyway, maybe if he plays enough this year, some definitive claims about his game could me more palatable.

Originally posted by Polkadots:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
If he can't beat out Darnold, or if the FO in fact doesn't think that is likely by the draft, he'd have more trade value now than after he falls further down our depth chart, has fewer years left on his contract, and the new team would be facing a $20m option year just to get a chance to try him out or go naked on a one year deal. That value is just about zero. Now, he's a very high pick that's just been injured and untried and superseded by a phenom, and there is still value there.

Like I said to Smokey, it's a matter of degrees. While I think you are correct in terrms of value (more now / less later), we are talking low value now versus minimal value later. And, when you take that into consideration, why trade him? A competent third QB on the 49ers, while unheard of before last year, might actually be a wise investment for this franchise.

If I am looking at this from an outside perspective looking to trade for Trey, a top (probably best) offensive mind in Kyle produced very little with Trey. Trey's play wasn't horrible, but when you look at what Brock did, and then look at what Trey did, you have to wonder what's up. And, given that wherever Trey would go, his OC will likely be inferior to Kyle, why am I giving up a ton for that? For potential? I haven't seen enough from Trey to risk my neck on his potential. You take those risks in the draft. And that's coming from someone who likes Trey. You won't see my history littered with Trey pessimism / hate.

I just don't see the point in any of these trade suggestions. There is no (or very little) value there. In fact, there is more (albeit, perhaps minimal) value for the 49ers to keep Trey. And Genus has already laid out the reasons a trade is so very unlikely, regardless of what John et. al. might be saying to the public.

I think recency bias is at play here. In reality, how often does a team need to go to their 3rd quarterback. Most teams stash a youngster on their practice squad that nobody will poach onto their 53. If that is Lance's status, he's not going to play anyway, do us any good, or do anything but decrease in value.

When teams' top qb hopes don't materialize in the draft, I think taking a chance on a much higher draft pick in Trey, at his rookie price prior to his option year, is going to look far better than most other options. I'm not going to bet on John not doing something productive here for us.

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:
This.

That is my only fear as well. I want to get a good look at Lance before I'm willing to give Brock the keys long term. But if he is healthy and starts then we don't get a good look at Lance and he may get traded before we do.

God forbid Trey balls for another team and wins a SB before we do.

I'd be livid and be so pissed at Shanalynch. Would be unforgivable. They trade Lance he better suck or be mediocre on his next team.

Your fear is that Brock is so good, we don't have to worry about anyone else?

Lol. My fear is I win the lottery, and I'll miss out what poverty feels like. Lol.

We're cursed!

Trey has no value. None. Plus last year we went to our 3rd QB. Who is to say it won't happen again?. What you going to get for Trey, you will be lucky to get a 5th and that is wishful thinking.

BTW Trey had injury problems his rookie year-ride with him then and take our lumps? That is how you can lose the players. Right now people want to play for us because of the attitude. winning does that.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Your fear is that Brock is so good, we don't have to worry about anyone else?

Lol. My fear is I win the lottery, and I'll miss out what poverty feels like. Lol.

We're cursed!

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Common sense tells anyone that the QB is the most important position on the team. One of your first priorities should be to find groom and play your franchise QB. Realistically for what we spent on Trey I now realize he should have started year one and we should have taken our lumps and have traded Jimmy the same year Trey was drafted. By now we would know what we have just as PHI did with Jalen Hurts. We kept spouting this win now crap and we have not won s***!

There is no guarantee in sports and if we knew Jimmy was not gonna ever get it done vs Mahomes then we needed to move on then and went all in on the next guy. Once you solidify the QB position you then have a window as Joe Burrow said spanning his career under center. Yes we have a tremendous record in 3 of the last 4 years but we have added zero Lombardi trophies so we are now in Jim Harbaugh territory right now. We want Walsh and Seifert and we better find start and play a QB that is gonna beat Hurts and beat Mahomes. Even if it takes a couple more years I want us to get it done and not just look for the next Kirk Cousins

SMH

Good post man!

Originally posted by WildBill:
Trey has no value. None. Plus last year we went to our 3rd QB. Who is to say it won't happen again?. What you going to get for Trey, you will be lucky to get a 5th and that is wishful thinking.

BTW Trey had injury problems his rookie year-ride with him then and take our lumps? That is how you can lose the players. Right now people want to play for us because of the attitude. winning does that.

If Trey has no value - then don't trade him.

Keep him and let's see how he does.

If Brock gets hurt again, we have a guy that knows the system and we have ab better chance of winning games/.

Originally posted by BOI49er:
I think recency bias is at play here. In reality, how often does a team need to go to their 3rd quarterback. Most teams stash a youngster on their practice squad that nobody will poach onto their 53. If that is Lance's status, he's not going to play anyway, do us any good, or do anything but decrease in value.

When teams' top qb hopes don't materialize in the draft, I think taking a chance on a much higher draft pick in Trey, at his rookie price prior to his option year, is going to look far better than most other options. I'm not going to bet on John not doing something productive here for us.

What do you think a team in the situation you describe would offer in a trade for Trey?