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Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

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Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Does every QB that plays like a top 5 QB for any small stretch of time have the ceiling of a top 5 QB?

Is this a serious question?

Upside of a player

Ceiling is a term that refers to a player's upside, otherwise known as the level a player can perform at when playing his best.


So if a QB does in fact play like a top 5 QB how is his ceiling not that? He'd have already reached that threshold. The question becomes can he stay there.

Well then I guess it depends on what one takes it to mean to "play like a top 5 QB". The biggest separator between the top guys and everyone else is consistency over multiple seasons, so I'd say at least a season of consistent elite play is a bare minimum requirement before it could be said that someone is playing like a top QB.

I don't disagree with you really. Truthfully the whole top 5 QB and FQB talk is just mumbo jumbo anyway.

I don't think they need to play a whole season to say they PLAYED or is PLAYING LIKE a "top5 QB". With that said, definitely need to play a longer period to say that they ARE a "top 5 QB"
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Trey needs to take it down to a 1. I'm sorry. I can't. Either wear the helmet all the time or take it to a 1.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Florio suggesting Mac for TL straight up

Of course he is.

Id rather have the 2 7ths.
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Does every QB that plays like a top 5 QB for any small stretch of time have the ceiling of a top 5 QB?

Is ceiling a real thing?

If it means the peak that they can consistently be long term, then yeah.

I don't think ceiling is a real thing, it's just fan talk meaning this guy is really toolsy, usually.
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
I don't think ceiling is a real thing, it's just fan talk meaning this guy is really toolsy, usually.

Agreed
Originally posted by Waterbear:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Does every QB that plays like a top 5 QB for any small stretch of time have the ceiling of a top 5 QB?

Is this a serious question?

Upside of a player

Ceiling is a term that refers to a player's upside, otherwise known as the level a player can perform at when playing his best.


So if a QB does in fact play like a top 5 QB how is his ceiling not that? He'd have already reached that threshold. The question becomes can he stay there.

Yeah idk the answer to that question. Ryan Tannehill had top 3 numbers one year, does that mean that's his ceiling?

I don't think it's accurate to say Lance has a higher ceiling than Purdy. We don't know if that's true or not. I would say it's possible that Lance adds more elements to the offense, vertical passing game and running ability, but it's entirely possible from what I saw of Purdy that he has the higher ceiling.

I think both QBs have a lot of potential. But I don't think it's fair to use the ceiling argument for why Trey needs to be the guy.

Yeah, I was listening to a podcast and one guy said that the team has more explosive ability downfield with Lance over Purdy but the rebuttal was that - it isn't like Purdy has Shaun hills arm, his is plenty strong enough to hit 55-60 yards downfield as Lance can probably hit 60-70. In the game of football and what plays are called, that isn't a massive difference and those are very rare situations and very low probability overall.

the main difference is that Lance can be later on his throw and still have a chance to make it because his arm, where as Purdy has less room for error because of his arm strength when it comes to being late on the throw.

to me, the main question is can Lance read the field, be accurate, and make plays consistently as Purdy. Based on the history of the game, that's not something players usually become great at if they aren't good at it already. If Lance could, he could be dynamic. Then the other major factor are injuries - can Lance stay healthy if he's running the ball all the time. Can any qb?

Typically QBs break down pretty fast and start to lose that ability after a few seasons - such as breaking/dislocating an ankle (hopefully no overall impact). Then they HAVE to be accurate consistently from the pocket because their run threat isn't making defense hesitate as much, which shrinks the throwing windows (like Newton/Lamar - put aside his crap receivers, this is just an example). It's a big reason why I think running so much with a qb is dumb, and short lived.
[ Edited by tankle104 on Apr 11, 2023 at 9:49 AM ]
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Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Florio suggesting Mac for TL straight up

Of course he is.

Id rather have the 2 7ths.

So would I. I don't want Mac Jones anywhere near the 9ers. Much rather stick with Darnold and a draft pick.
Lance already losing his hair over the thought of Purdy being QB1.
Originally posted by tankle104:
Originally posted by Waterbear:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Does every QB that plays like a top 5 QB for any small stretch of time have the ceiling of a top 5 QB?

Is this a serious question?

Upside of a player

Ceiling is a term that refers to a player's upside, otherwise known as the level a player can perform at when playing his best.


So if a QB does in fact play like a top 5 QB how is his ceiling not that? He'd have already reached that threshold. The question becomes can he stay there.

Yeah idk the answer to that question. Ryan Tannehill had top 3 numbers one year, does that mean that's his ceiling?

I don't think it's accurate to say Lance has a higher ceiling than Purdy. We don't know if that's true or not. I would say it's possible that Lance adds more elements to the offense, vertical passing game and running ability, but it's entirely possible from what I saw of Purdy that he has the higher ceiling.

I think both QBs have a lot of potential. But I don't think it's fair to use the ceiling argument for why Trey needs to be the guy.

Yeah, I was listening to a podcast and one guy said that the team has more explosive ability downfield with Lance over Purdy but the rebuttal was that - it isn't like Purdy has Shaun hills arm, his is plenty strong enough to hit 55-60 yards downfield as Lance can probably hit 60-70. In the game of football and what plays are called, that isn't a massive difference and those are very rare situations and very low probability overall.

the main difference is that Lance can be later on his throw and still have a chance to make it because his arm, where as Purdy has less room for error because of his arm strength when it comes to being late on the throw.

to me, the main question is can Lance read the field, be accurate, and make plays consistently as Purdy. Based on the history of the game, that's not something players usually become great at if they aren't good at it already. If Lance could, he could be dynamic. Then the other major factor are injuries - can Lance stay healthy if he's running the ball all the time. Can any qb?

Typically QBs break down pretty fast and start to lose that ability after a few seasons - such as breaking/dislocating an ankle (hopefully no overall impact). Then they HAVE to be accurate consistently from the pocket because their run threat isn't making defense hesitate as much, which shrinks the throwing windows (like Newton/Lamar - put aside his crap receivers, this is just an example). It's a big reason why I think running so much with a qb is dumb, and short lived.

I always use Shaun Hill as an example of why arm strength is overrated when evaluating a QBs ability to stretch the field. Because Hill had very minimal arm strength but he was decent at throwing deep passes. They would always come out wobbly but the throws were on time so he connected on some of them. Jimmy has a much stronger arm IMO but he rarely tested defenses deep in the same way. We were told for years that was due to our offensive system and personnel, but that was proven false IMO since Purdy came in and stretched defenses vertically.
Originally posted by Waterbear:
I always use Shaun Hill as an example of why arm strength is overrated when evaluating a QBs ability to stretch the field. Because Hill had very minimal arm strength but he was decent at throwing deep passes. They would always come out wobbly but the throws were on time so he connected on some of them. Jimmy has a much stronger arm IMO but he rarely tested defenses deep in the same way. We were told for years that was due to our offensive system and personnel, but that was proven false IMO since Purdy came in and stretched defenses vertically.

I think prime Shaun Hill could win with this current team, he was sneaky good. If TL is not avail.
Originally posted by tankle104:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Does every QB that plays like a top 5 QB for any small stretch of time have the ceiling of a top 5 QB?

Is ceiling a real thing?

If you're tall, strong arm, and can run fast - you have a chance at being the next Montana/Mahommes/Brady.
If you're more than tall enough, stronger than average arm, and very quick at avoiding pressure - you're very limited and never will be great. Because some think those are intangibles, when they're really not. Lol

ceiling is actually tied more to your the way your mind works and sees the game, football IQ, leadership, emotional maturity etc. that's what determines how good someone can be, as long as your physical traits are good enough. Which Purdys are more than enough. He just needs to heal up.

I will never question Montana's greatness but I question why you included him in that group of tall, strong armed and fast QBs. Joe at 6'1" wasn't tall He didn't have a strong arm and he wasn't fast. He was a good runner when he was young but not really fast. Joe had none of those attributes. Joe was actually in that 2nd category that you described and he was great. Tall enough for that era. Good at avoiding pressure. Slightly above average arm. He had the intangibles that made the difference as well as a great coach and great talent around him.
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I will never question Montana's greatness but I question why you included him in that group of tall, strong armed and fast QBs. Joe at 6'1" wasn't tall He didn't have a strong arm and he wasn't fast. He was a good runner when he was young but not really fast. Joe had none of those attributes. Joe was actually in that 2nd category that you described and he was great. Tall enough for that era. Good at avoiding pressure. Slightly above average arm. He had the intangibles that made the difference as well as a great coach and great talent around him.

You could argue the two best QBs of all time were not 'high ceiling' guys at all. Joe and Brady. Who is the best high ceiling guy?
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I will never question Montana's greatness but I question why you included him in that group of tall, strong armed and fast QBs. Joe at 6'1" wasn't tall He didn't have a strong arm and he wasn't fast. He was a good runner when he was young but not really fast. Joe had none of those attributes. Joe was actually in that 2nd category that you described and he was great. Tall enough for that era. Good at avoiding pressure. Slightly above average arm. He had the intangibles that made the difference as well as a great coach and great talent around him.

You could argue the two best QBs of all time were not 'high ceiling' guys at all. Joe and Brady. Who is the best high ceiling guy?

Right, I used them because they're great QBs. Who has a higher ceiling than those guys? Brady was a laughing stock physically, montana wasn't a big guy with a big arm. My point was that physical traits Aren't "intangibles" and it's the least important aspect of identifying a players ceiling or "how great they can be".

if someone has the intangibles AND a cannon/side/speed - wonderful. Even better. You don't start with what they have physically to identify someone's ceiling or potential.

brees is another guy who physically was nothing special. He ended up retiring with most of the passing records, or
top 5 all time, and he could get you a field goal in 20 Seconds with a couple plays. I just don't subscribe to the thought that physical traits determine a QBs potential, at all. It's a great benefit if they have everything else, that's all.
[ Edited by tankle104 on Apr 11, 2023 at 10:26 AM ]
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
I mean if Brock turns into Joe Burrow 2.0 then there's no stains imo. If he's anything but that or more similar to Jimmy G, then overall I see it more as a failure.. not so much for Brock…anything we get out of him is gravy imo.

Lance has that ceiling as a top 5 QB. Not sure Brock does (over the long haul) a couple games either way doesn't prove anything for either guy imo. End of the day I want and elite level QB for the long-term. If it's brock sweet. If it's Lance sweet. I do NOT want another Jimmy G situation…avg QB who can't stay on the field. We aren't gonna always have pro-bowlers at every position and paying a QB peanuts…one of these dudes needs to be a stud. They need to lift up the roster and help when we have to lose talent elsewhere.

How can Brock play at a top 5 level and not have a ceiling of a top 5 QB? as for Trey and his ceiling... It's best that I just don't comment

Heinicke had a 7 game stretch of top 5 ball. So that's his ceiling? Keenum had a whole season of playing at a top level QB. Is that his ceiling?

even Jimmy had a couple games stretches of top 5 play. That doesn't conclude that that's their ceiling imo. Joe blow can go out and score 40pts in a NBA game a couple times…that's not who they are as a NBA though….It's a couple games of good football on a really good roster. If Lance goes out and plays top 5 ball for a couple games…I'm sure you will be running around tossing out every doubt you could possibly find. Every bad play. Every well he didn't him him in stride here blah blah blah.

no I don't think Brock's skill set is that of a top 5 QB and I'm talking about sustainable. Not for a couple games. hopefully he proves me wrong because unlike the Trey hater club I don't give a s**t who's the guy. I just want there to be a guy. I don't want Jimmy G 2.0. I don't want Kirk 2.0. I want a bona fide elite QB. I want the league to think well SF has *insert name* at QB so they're gonna be favorites to win it all every yr for the next decade.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Heinicke had a 7 game stretch of top 5 ball. So that's his ceiling? Keenum had a whole season of playing at a top level QB. Is that his ceiling?

even Jimmy had a couple games stretches of top 5 play. That doesn't conclude that that's their ceiling imo. Joe blow can go out and score 40pts in a NBA game a couple times…that's not who they are as a NBA though….It's a couple games of good football on a really good roster. If Lance goes out and plays top 5 ball for a couple games…I'm sure you will be running around tossing out every doubt you could possibly find. Every bad play. Every well he didn't him him in stride here blah blah blah.

no I don't think Brock's skill set is that of a top 5 QB and I'm talking about sustainable. Not for a couple games. hopefully he proves me wrong because unlike the Trey hater club I don't give a s**t who's the guy. I just want there to be a guy. I don't want Jimmy G 2.0. I don't want Kirk 2.0. I want a bona fide elite QB. I want the league to think well SF has *insert name* at QB so they're gonna be favorites to win it all every yr for the next decade.



"I don't care who the guy is, but Brock isn't it" - NY

what happened to you can't make declarative statements about a guy... based on limited starts, when BP has 5 career starts

why does that logic apply to TL but not BP?
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