Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Fair enough regarding the ad hominem. I won't do it anymore. But, I maintain that defenders taking false steps or waiting until after the mesh action to react is not a matter of opinion.

You are correct though.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Regarding the Seahawks, the 49ers ran the ball 45 times for 189 yards. EXCLUDING Deebo's 51 yard run, the 49ers had 57 rushing yards on 11 carries with Lance under center, for an average of 5.2 yards per carry. The rest of the game they had 81 yards on 33 carries for an average of 2.5. right there in the same game you see the difference with Lance, and I've EXCLUDED that 51 yard run in which two linebackers clearly respected Lance's ability to run behind the pulling linemen.

I'm not arguing that Lance doesn't boost our run game. He does. He's a good runner at the QB position. I'm arguing Deebo's running* isn't the product of Trey Lance and to argue or imply that it* is is ridiculous.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Regarding the Seahawks, the 49ers ran the ball 45 times for 189 yards. EXCLUDING Deebo's 51 yard run, the 49ers had 57 rushing yards on 11 carries with Lance under center, for an average of 5.2 yards per carry. The rest of the game they had 81 yards on 33 carries for an average of 2.5. right there in the same game you see the difference with Lance, and I've EXCLUDED that 51 yard run in which two linebackers clearly respected Lance's ability to run behind the pulling linemen.

I'm not arguing that Lance doesn't boost our run game. He does. He's a good runner at the QB position. I'm arguing Deebo's running* isn't the product of Trey Lance and to argue or imply that it* is is ridiculous.

Well yeah. Trey's only impact on that play was being partially responsible for the initial motion of the interior linebackers. Deebo was dead to rights on that play but beat the end in a one v one situatoin. Also, I imagine it can be argued that maybe Trey read that wrong and should have kept it, because the end clearly had the edge and was waiting for Deebo. But despite what Charlie is saying, Trey played a role in those two interior linebackers respecting the pulling action.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Well yeah. Trey's only impact on that play was being partially responsible for the initial motion of the interior linebackers. Deebo was dead to rights on that play but beat the end in a one v one situatoin. Also, I imagine it can be argued that maybe Trey read that wrong and should have kept it, because the end clearly had the edge and was waiting for Deebo. But despite what Charlie is saying, Trey played a role in those two interior linebackers respecting the pulling action.

I was talking just generally. The poster I responded to mentioned Deebo's running not being as effective when Trey went down (not just in this particular game).

As for the play I think the right read would have been Trey keeping that ball, but Deebo did Deebo things and it worked out.

Doesn't the center call our protections etc in the pass/run game based off of the defensive lineup? I feel like the o line deserves a lot of the credit in the run game. I think the run game is super effective in general.

when we are discussing read option with Trey, I think he improves the run game Because they know Kyle wants to run with him and he will. Trey is good enough to run, although I don't think he's great at it. He isn't bad at all, but it's not super effective either.

regardless of if hes really good at it or not, he has enough ability where it forces the defense to recognize that, pause for a second, and diagnose where the ball is going. That pause can, and usually does, create additional space in the run game for bigger plays.

I don't think Trey deserves all the credit for some of those explosive plays but I think he deserves more than Jimmy/Brock does. Because you almost knew we weren't really going to run with them.

the idea is that if Lance can get better at passing, and stay healthy, the defense will pause a lot and make windows wide open in the passing game. It's why someone like Lamar has been successful. Not because he's super accurate or a great passer - it's his ability to make the defense hesitate because of his legs that creates bigger passing lanes and windows.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
He had other games last season that were in line with what he averaged with Trey in his 5 quarters at QB. And his best season running was with Jimmy G at QB.

Also not playing the Bears and Seahawks defense every week probably doesn't help.

Yeah it was his best season because it was fresh and DC's weren't expecting it. I'm just saying Deebo as rb would've worked better this past year if Trey played cause the defenses would lock in on Trey keeping the ball.

Originally posted by eric_anthony:
Yeah it was his best season because it was fresh and DC's weren't expecting it. I'm just saying Deebo as rb would've worked better this past year if Trey played cause the defenses would lock in on Trey keeping the ball.

Like I said, Trey is going to boost the run game in general. Defenses are going to load up against it though.

Good passing offenses open up the run game as well.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Fair enough regarding the ad hominem. I won't do it anymore. But, I maintain that defenders taking false steps or waiting until after the mesh action to react is not a matter of opinion.

You are correct though.

Absolutely correct.

Rings is obliterating Charlie in this argument, if you can even call it that.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Fair enough regarding the ad hominem. I won't do it anymore. But, I maintain that defenders taking false steps or waiting until after the mesh action to react is not a matter of opinion.

You are correct though.

Absolutely correct.

Rings is obliterating Charlie in this argument, if you can even call it that.

Any Trey homer will think that Truth is I proved it with film that Deebo was breaking off huge runs and Trey had nothing to do with it. Watch the Deebo highlights up until Trey gets injured. All long runs from Deebo that had nothing to do with Trey

Here's another one. On the second play TDP breaks off another 20 yarder……..that again has nothing to do with Trey lol

The team numbers look good when Trey is in, so his fans are quick to give him all the credit. Unfortunately for Trey the film does not tell us we were breaking off runs because of him

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

And the second play look at 58. Clearly watching the mesh point to react to where the run actually goes, instead of attacking the logical place the run would go if not for the threat of the QB run.

I mean, are you kidding me? 0/2 on this video. Come on man.

Lol he plays the play just like anyone would. You are trying too hard to say it's because of Trey. Those are all Deebo. It's like taking one play where Trey went deep and Jimmy went short and saying he reads the field better than Jimmy lol. You jump to some crazy conclusions

I use that one play because it's the most convenient one. You can tell Trey is not predetermining where he's throwing all the time because he's a tick late sometimes as he surveys and then reacts. You can tell Jimmy is predetermining because he'll look right in the direction of a wide open guy and throw to someone else, like he did twice in the red zone in the Super Bowl (which cost us 8 points). Jimmy is looking off the defense there, executing a series of steps he planned before the ball was snapped. Trey is a watch and reactor. He's not sticking to his predetermined plan. He's watching and trying to react. That gets him in trouble because he isn't experienced enough to anticipate where things are going to go, making him a tick late sometimes.

It's the thing we talk about with reps that'll get faster. It's something I'm honestly so eager to see him do. He has the absolute right idea. He can't really help where he's at now, or can only help himself so much that is. I do have tremendous faith in his future. It just remains to be seen how quickly he can adjust whenever he does get his next opportunity.

I know the times were different back then, but man, Young was a backup for 4-5 years before getting extended action. I know it's unlikely now but.. Shoot.. I'd sure love it if Lance was able to stay here a long time on a decent deal and then be with us when he realizes what many believe his full potential is.

Everyone that doesn't want Trey traded for a ham sandwich is a Trey homer.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Everyone that doesn't want Trey traded for a ham sandwich is a Trey homer.

Or the guys patting 5gr on the back for how right he is, when he's drawing conclusions that aren't there and using preseason film to support regular numbers smh

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Fair enough regarding the ad hominem. I won't do it anymore. But, I maintain that defenders taking false steps or waiting until after the mesh action to react is not a matter of opinion.

You are correct though.

Absolutely correct.

Rings is obliterating Charlie in this argument, if you can even call it that.

Any Trey homer will think that Truth is I proved it with film that Deebo was breaking off huge runs and Trey had nothing to do with it. Watch the Deebo highlights up until Trey gets injured. All long runs from Deebo that had nothing to do with Trey

I'm not a Trey homer. I've been arguing with NY about Brock today too.

Deebo is a great player. He makes his own yards. The most important part of that play was obviously Deebo breaking the tackle attempt by the edge player. But there's no reasonable doubt that Trey doesn't cause middle linebackers to freeze during that mesh action, and there's no doubt on that particular run it helped a little bit by screwing up their angle of pursuit. Nevertheless, it's one run, and you seemed to ignore all the other facts about that game, such as the fact that even discounting that 51 yard run, the 49ers had about twice as many yards per carry with Trey than with Jimmy. In the same game.

And honestly, it boggles the mind why anyone would doubt that having a QB who can get yards on an inverted veer would affect how the defense plays the run. It's so obviously true it's spawned a cliche: "zone-read makes the defense play 11 on 11."

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

I'm not a Trey homer. I've been arguing with NY about Brock today too.

Deebo is a great player. He makes his own yards. The most important part of that play was obviously Deebo breaking the tackle attempt by the edge player. But there's no reasonable doubt that Trey doesn't cause middle linebackers to freeze during that mesh action, and there's no doubt on that particular run it helped a little bit by screwing up their angle of pursuit. Nevertheless, it's one run, and you seemed to ignore all the other facts about that game, such as the fact that even discounting that 51 yard run, the 49ers had about twice as many yards per carry with Trey than with Jimmy. In the same game.

And honestly, it boggles the mind why anyone would doubt that having a QB who can get yards on an inverted veer would affect how the defense plays the run. It's so obviously true it's spawned a cliche: "zone-read makes the defense play 11 on 11."

I'm not saying you're a Trey homer, just saying any Trey homer is going to say you're right here no matter what.

Yes in theory it does help the run game to have a QB that can run. You're taking that theory and some favorable numbers in a small sample, and drawing a conclusion that the film does not back