Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Everyone that doesn't want Trey traded for a ham sandwich is a Trey homer.

Or the guys patting 5gr on the back for how right he is, when he's drawing conclusions that aren't there and using preseason film to support regular numbers smh

The numbers support me. The team averages more than a yard per carry with him on the field. No, it's not going to affect every single run. But when he's in the shotgun, you better believe it makes a difference as things average out. The proof is obvious on the film, and it's frankly undeniable in the team yards per carry.

I mean, you're not just fighting against film showing linebackers hesitating or being sucked in, you're also fighting the undeniable fact of reality that the team averages more yards per carry with him on the field and has since he shown up (including in the very same game). You're also fighting the well established common knowledge everyone in the football world acknowledges about what "11 on 11" football does, and that it doesn't take a Justin Fields type athlete to work. Four or five yards a pop are enough to warrant consideration by the defense, and it shows on those muddled mesh point plays.

You call people homers, but you're simply a Trey "dissenter" and it's been obvious for months. As for me, you're talking to the guy who is currently arguing with NY about how I think Brock legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 guy and this team's Franchise QB. The same guy who has said if Darnold figures it out and turns the corner he could be elite. I'm not even remotely close to a Trey homer. In fact I argued with NY for a couple months about why we should NOT draft Trey, and I didn't start liking him until I saw him in interviews and researched his character (but never dropped my concerns with his game; I merely acknowledged if any guy could overcome those things, it's someone like him).

So, the objective person here is me, not you. Especially considering the topic at hand, where LITERALLY EVERYONE knows that QBs who can get four or five yards consistently on QB powers, inverted veers and other types of similar runs are going to force defenses to scheme to stop and make linebackers and safeties hesitate a split second.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Everyone that doesn't want Trey traded for a ham sandwich is a Trey homer.

Or the guys patting 5gr on the back for how right he is, when he's drawing conclusions that aren't there and using preseason film to support regular numbers smh

The numbers support me. The team averages more than a yard per carry with him on the field. No, it's not going to affect every single run. But when he's in the shotgun, you better believe it makes a difference as things average out. The proof is obvious on the film, and it's frankly undeniable in the team yards per carry.

I mean, you're not just fighting against film showing linebackers hesitating or being sucked in, you're also fighting the undeniable fact of reality that the team averages more yards per carry with him on the field and has since he shown up (including in the very same game). You're also fighting the well established common knowledge everyone in the football world acknowledges about what "11 on 11" football does, and that it doesn't take a Justin Fields type athlete to work. Four or five yards a pop are enough to warrant consideration by the defense, and it shows on those muddled mesh point plays.

You call people homers, but you're simply a Trey "dissenter" and it's been obvious for months. As for me, you're talking to the guy who is currently arguing with NY about how I think Brock legitimately has a chance to be a top 10 guy and this team's Franchise QB. The same guy who has said if Darnold figures it out and turns the corner he could be elite. I'm not even remotely close to a Trey homer. In fact I argued with NY for a couple months about why we should NOT draft Trey, and I didn't start liking him until I saw him in interviews and researched his character (but never dropped my concerns with his game; I merely acknowledged if any guy could overcome those things, it's someone like him).

So, the objective person here is me, not you. Especially considering the topic at hand, where LITERALLY EVERYONE knows that QBs who can get four or five yards consistently on QB powers, inverted veers and other types of similar runs are going to force defenses to scheme to stop and make linebackers and safeties hesitate a split second.

I don't think you're a Trey homer. I think you're just making an assumption based off numbers instead of the actual film

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I'm not a Trey homer. I've been arguing with NY about Brock today too.

Deebo is a great player. He makes his own yards. The most important part of that play was obviously Deebo breaking the tackle attempt by the edge player. But there's no reasonable doubt that Trey doesn't cause middle linebackers to freeze during that mesh action, and there's no doubt on that particular run it helped a little bit by screwing up their angle of pursuit. Nevertheless, it's one run, and you seemed to ignore all the other facts about that game, such as the fact that even discounting that 51 yard run, the 49ers had about twice as many yards per carry with Trey than with Jimmy. In the same game.

And honestly, it boggles the mind why anyone would doubt that having a QB who can get yards on an inverted veer would affect how the defense plays the run. It's so obviously true it's spawned a cliche: "zone-read makes the defense play 11 on 11."

I'm not saying you're a Trey homer, just saying any Trey homer is going to say you're right here no matter what.

Yes in theory it does help the run game to have a QB that can run. You're taking that theory and some favorable numbers in a small sample, and drawing a conclusion that the film does not back

The film literally backs it up. I showed you linebackers and safeties both hesitating. You simply deny it and claim it's caused something else. Never mind the fact that the formation in question shows pretty clearly that there was only one legitimate threat in the direction of those pullers, and that was Trey. You can say, "But that's just scheme!" but if you put Jimmy back there YOU CAN'T RUN THAT unless you also put another back on the opposite side and hope to have success (which the 49ers have in fact done; we did a lot of split back stuff out of the gun in 2021, for precisely the reason to run plays like that). But with Trey you can come out in a formation with only one back next to the QB, thereby spreading out the defense, and successfully run that play.

That's the difference here. Yeah, the 49ers could do this with Jimmy. But they couldn't do it in that formation and expect to have the same level of success. And what benefit is there in that formation? A spread out defense.

Lastly, the sample size isn't that small for this tiny cumulative effect. It's over a 120 runs. By comparison, Brock threw 170 regular season passes.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Well that's kind of my point. It didn't look effortless. It looked like he was doing a lot mechanically to control the pace of the ball. It was basically an all arm throw instead of a proper use of his body. I think that's one of the reasons we hear reports of arm fatigue. My point about the pressure was he can get away with making the throw like that because he has the space to do it... even though I don't think he'd be consistently accurate using that kind of motion even in space. The space just allows him to go through his normal motion, or in that case the slowed down version of it.

The top throw here in your most recent post is the best example you've used yet though. No complaints there.

The throw to Deebo was more of what we've already seen. When his feet are right he can fire a laser accurately.

I'm sorry but nothing about that throw looked like it required a lot of work from him to make. It in fact looked effortless & with touch.

You're contradicting yourself. So he can get away with that throw because there's space for him to what? Step into it? And then when there's pressure and he can't step into it, what do you expect him to use? His arm strength.

I've shown you a layered pass that was 20+ yards downfield made effortlessly. I've showed you a one step drop in breaking route. I've showed you an off balance pressure throw that had touch. I showed you a practice throw, throwing on the run side arm made between defenders. I've showed you a quick slant pass.

The problem is people have tried to overanalyze 100 passing attempts and find anything wrong. Ya'll have painted a picture of bad in your head regardless of not seeing him throw a ball since October or it actually not being that bad.

The problem with Trey wasn't ever things he just flat out couldn't do, it is just doing them with a greater degree of consistency. Improved mechanics should help that issue. The sailing passes should not be as frequent as they were. Now they just need to realize that he is not a running quarterback, he should almost never have running plays called for him, least of all QB power where he has to wade through the trenches.

Lol what? He's good at that. It was a freak accident. He did that throughout college and in the NFL, and it helped our run game tremendously. Go look at our run stats with him under center.

I don't have to, I watched the games. He is slow and not very elusive. Running qb power against div 1 AA scrubs and NFL defenses are two entirely different animals. He is not a running qb, more of a scrambler when things break down. He was getting lit up when he tried to run with regularity, getting caught short of converting on third downs and not being very elusive at all. Plus he is injured too much to be risking him on quarterback runs. I don't know what you saw in the pros to make you think he could be a good runner. If you think he's gonna make a career out of running the ball, you better hope he has made a huge improvement there, he can't keep getting lit up because he is too slow to make the sidelines.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Well that's kind of my point. It didn't look effortless. It looked like he was doing a lot mechanically to control the pace of the ball. It was basically an all arm throw instead of a proper use of his body. I think that's one of the reasons we hear reports of arm fatigue. My point about the pressure was he can get away with making the throw like that because he has the space to do it... even though I don't think he'd be consistently accurate using that kind of motion even in space. The space just allows him to go through his normal motion, or in that case the slowed down version of it.

The top throw here in your most recent post is the best example you've used yet though. No complaints there.

The throw to Deebo was more of what we've already seen. When his feet are right he can fire a laser accurately.

I'm sorry but nothing about that throw looked like it required a lot of work from him to make. It in fact looked effortless & with touch.

You're contradicting yourself. So he can get away with that throw because there's space for him to what? Step into it? And then when there's pressure and he can't step into it, what do you expect him to use? His arm strength.

I've shown you a layered pass that was 20+ yards downfield made effortlessly. I've showed you a one step drop in breaking route. I've showed you an off balance pressure throw that had touch. I showed you a practice throw, throwing on the run side arm made between defenders. I've showed you a quick slant pass.

The problem is people have tried to overanalyze 100 passing attempts and find anything wrong. Ya'll have painted a picture of bad in your head regardless of not seeing him throw a ball since October or it actually not being that bad.

The problem with Trey wasn't ever things he just flat out couldn't do, it is just doing them with a greater degree of consistency. Improved mechanics should help that issue. The sailing passes should not be as frequent as they were. Now they just need to realize that he is not a running quarterback, he should almost never have running plays called for him, least of all QB power where he has to wade through the trenches.

Lol what? He's good at that. It was a freak accident. He did that throughout college and in the NFL, and it helped our run game tremendously. Go look at our run stats with him under center.

I don't have to, I watched the games. He is slow and not very elusive. Running qb power against div 1 AA scrubs and NFL defenses are two entirely different animals. He is not a running qb, more of a scrambler when things break down. He was getting lit up when he tried to run with regularity, getting caught short of converting on third downs and not being very elusive at all. Plus he is injured too much to be risking him on quarterback runs. I don't know what you saw in the pros to make you think he could be a good runner. If you think he's gonna make a career out of running the ball, you better hope he has made a huge improvement there, he can't keep getting lit up because he is too slow to make the sidelines.

How many times do we have to do this?





He's not Justin Fields, nor was he drafted to be that. But to claim he has no elusiveness and can't be a threat to run is just flagrantly in conflict with observable reality. The source for this myth is that you mistook Trey not being good at reading holes in defenses and not being familiar with NFL speed with him not being physically able to be a threat on the ground. Like so many others, you didn't notice that Trey's central issue with "failing to get first downs" is not knowing when to give up trying to get the corner and turn up field.

What his running game would ideally look like: four or five QB draws or inverted veers per game that pick up 6 or 7 unexpected yards on second down, or four on third and three once a game. And then on top of that about six or seven plays in which that action is duplicated, which would catch a defender or two hesitating, helping the real ball carrier get two or three more yards. That's what Shanahan saw when drafting him, and that's how he needs to be used.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

I'm not a Trey homer. I've been arguing with NY about Brock today too.

Deebo is a great player. He makes his own yards. The most important part of that play was obviously Deebo breaking the tackle attempt by the edge player. But there's no reasonable doubt that Trey doesn't cause middle linebackers to freeze during that mesh action, and there's no doubt on that particular run it helped a little bit by screwing up their angle of pursuit. Nevertheless, it's one run, and you seemed to ignore all the other facts about that game, such as the fact that even discounting that 51 yard run, the 49ers had about twice as many yards per carry with Trey than with Jimmy. In the same game.

And honestly, it boggles the mind why anyone would doubt that having a QB who can get yards on an inverted veer would affect how the defense plays the run. It's so obviously true it's spawned a cliche: "zone-read makes the defense play 11 on 11."

I'm not saying you're a Trey homer, just saying any Trey homer is going to say you're right here no matter what.

Yes in theory it does help the run game to have a QB that can run. You're taking that theory and some favorable numbers in a small sample, and drawing a conclusion that the film does not back

The film literally backs it up. I showed you linebackers and safeties both hesitating. You simply deny it and claim it's caused something else. Never mind the fact that the formation in question shows pretty clearly that there was only one legitimate threat in the direction of those pullers, and that was Trey. You can say, "But that's just scheme!" but if you put Jimmy back there YOU CAN'T RUN THAT unless you also put another back on the opposite side and hope to have success (which the 49ers have in fact done; we did a lot of split back stuff out of the gun in 2021, for precisely the reason to run plays like that). But with Trey you can come out in a formation with only one back next to the QB, thereby spreading out the defense, and successfully run that play.

That's the difference here. Yeah, the 49ers could do this with Jimmy. But they couldn't do it in that formation and expect to have the same level of success. And what benefit is there in that formation? A spread out defense.

Lastly, the sample size isn't that small for this tiny cumulative effect. It's over a 120 runs. By comparison, Brock threw 170 regular season passes.

No it doesn't. The LBs move becauee there are two lineman pulling to that side. It's natural for Lbs to do that when they see multiple guys pulling to one side. You give Trey the credit, I don't. I've seen us move Lbs like that without Trey

The safety stopping his feet for a second becauee of a fake bubble screen on the Deebo TD was not because of Trey either

I had no clue what you were talking about with 58 on the Deebo 30 yarder. I don't see him affected by Trey in anyway honestly

Take away the Deebo 50 yarder and TDP 20 yarder in the Seattle game and it's 37 yds on 10 carries. That is 3.7 ypc that was boosted over 5 ypc on runs that had nothing to do with Trey

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
I don't have to, I watched the games. He is slow and not very elusive. Running qb power against div 1 AA scrubs and NFL defenses are two entirely different animals. He is not a running qb, more of a scrambler when things break down. He was getting lit up when he tried to run with regularity, getting caught short of converting on third downs and not being very elusive at all. Plus he is injured too much to be risking him on quarterback runs. I don't know what you saw in the pros to make you think he could be a good runner. If you think he's gonna make a career out of running the ball, you better hope he has made a huge improvement there, he can't keep getting lit up because he is too slow to make the sidelines.

I agree with this, just cause you can find a couple good running plays, doesn't mean he was good at the designed running plays. A majority of them were failures and fell short of converting third downs.

the videos posted after this post are mainly scrambling, which is what he is much better at and I prefer that anyways. I still believe running your qb like a running back is dumb. Unless it's a rare play and done in unique circumstances. We were literally rushing him 10+ times multiple times and he's only played a couple games, that's ridiculous.

id rather keep Trey passing and make him use his legs to create chunk pass plays. Running your qb like a FB will result in inevitable injuries, like it already has. Trey just needs to work on his passing ability, which all reports have said positive things. So I think it's all going in the right direction. Trey doesn't have the natural athletic ability to rush around like lamar or fields - so we should avoid those situations. Let him be a QB first and not some wildcat qb that struggles at both ends. Need to develop him as a qb first, imo.

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
I don't have to, I watched the games. He is slow and not very elusive. Running qb power against div 1 AA scrubs and NFL defenses are two entirely different animals. He is not a running qb, more of a scrambler when things break down. He was getting lit up when he tried to run with regularity, getting caught short of converting on third downs and not being very elusive at all. Plus he is injured too much to be risking him on quarterback runs. I don't know what you saw in the pros to make you think he could be a good runner. If you think he's gonna make a career out of running the ball, you better hope he has made a huge improvement there, he can't keep getting lit up because he is too slow to make the sidelines.

I agree with this, just cause you can find a couple good running plays, doesn't mean he was good at the designed running plays. A majority of them were failures and fell short of converting third downs.

the videos posted after this post are mainly scrambling, which is what he is much better at and I prefer that anyways. I still believe running your qb like a running back is dumb. Unless it's a rare play and done in unique circumstances. We were literally rushing him 10+ times multiple times and he's only played a couple games, that's ridiculous.

id rather keep Trey passing and make him use his legs to create chunk pass plays. Running your qb like a FB will result in inevitable injuries, like it already has. Trey just needs to work on his passing ability, which all reports have said positive things. So I think it's all going in the right direction. Trey doesn't have the natural athletic ability to rush around like lamar or fields - so we should avoid those situations. Let him be a QB first and not some wildcat qb that struggles at both ends. Need to develop him as a qb first, imo.

Totally agree. If Trey's going to start, we should just make him a passing Quarterback as much as possible or better yet, just send him passing plays messages or signals only. If he's the one because he earned it through internal team competition, then let's protect/preserve him by not letting him run the football. Win or lose in the pocket. F we're going to be a 2 dimension (passing and handing off to RB's) team, so be it. Until Trey really gets most of the complexities of the game, we can sacrifice a couple of losses in order to preserve the health of our future quarterback. But like I said I can only see this happening if the situation is predicated with Trey coming out of the preseason as the number 1 quarterback without question.

Originally posted by 49erF90:
Totally agree. If Trey's going to start, we should just make him a passing Quarterback as much as possible or better yet, just send him passing plays messages or signals only. If he's the one because he earned it through internal team competition, then let's protect/preserve him by not letting him run the football. Win or lose in the pocket. F we're going to be a 2 dimension (passing and handing off to RB's) team, so be it. Until Trey really gets most of the complexities of the game, we can sacrifice a couple of losses in order to preserve the health of our future quarterback. But like I said I can only see this happening if the situation is predicated with Trey coming out of the preseason as the number 1 quarterback without question.

I think the good news would be that if Trey emerges as the starter, it would indicate a significant improvement in his ability to execute in the pass game. I think it would be safe to assume the gameplan and offense would look different accordingly.

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
funny how i was told repeatedly on this site that there was nothing wrong with trey's throwing motion

There is a difference in saying someone is awful and can't play because of their mechanics and saying someone can get better by improving their mechanics.

I'm not saying which you were cuz I honestly don't remember but I've seen people who I know have no f*ing clue what they're talking about try to analyze his mechanics and act like Trey is awful because of it.

It was pretty obvious his misses can be improved upon with work and experience. That's why some of us want to see more of him, because his issues are all correctable.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
I think the good news would be that if Trey emerges as the starter, it would indicate a significant improvement in his ability to execute in the pass game. I think it would be safe to assume the gameplan and offense would look different accordingly.

And just where in the hell do you get that from? Kyle's tendency to call more run plays with Trey under center has nothing to do with his ability to execute in the pass game. You and others love to draw that conclusion but it simply is not true. All that it means is that the run game performs better when he is under center. Why don't you do some research on whether Kyle prefers running or passing the ball more?

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
And just where in the hell do you get that from? Kyle's tendency to call more run plays with Trey under center has nothing to do with his ability to execute in the pass game. You and others love to draw that conclusion but it simply is not true. All that it means is that the run game performs better when he is under center. Why don't you do some research on whether Kyle prefers running or passing the ball more?

There's a difference between calling more QB run plays with a QB who can run, and using it as a primary, or near primary, method of attacking of a defense with a QB. Nobody's suggesting Kyle uses Trey in the run game solely because Trey struggles in the pass game. It's the balance of play calling that's at issue.

What is a fact, regardless of where you fall in the play selection argument, is that our pass game, and offense overall, has struggled with Trey under center. He needs to improve in this area whether we call his number in the run game or not. You're free to opine that the offense we saw with Trey was exactly what Kyle wanted to do, but the results have not been good in his limited sample.

Originally posted by SLCNiner:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
I think the good news would be that if Trey emerges as the starter, it would indicate a significant improvement in his ability to execute in the pass game. I think it would be safe to assume the gameplan and offense would look different accordingly.

And just where in the hell do you get that from? Kyle's tendency to call more run plays with Trey under center has nothing to do with his ability to execute in the pass game. You and others love to draw that conclusion but it simply is not true. All that it means is that the run game performs better when he is under center. Why don't you do some research on whether Kyle prefers running or passing the ball more?

I didn't think his post was anything inflammatory. He's spot on imo. We saw Brock execute the offense at a super high level and it was as a passer. If Trey wins the competition it will be because he shows improved ability as a passer and ability to execute Kyle's offense at a high level.

Originally posted by genus49:
I didn't think his post was anything inflammatory. He's spot on imo. We saw Brock execute the offense at a super high level and it was as a passer. If Trey wins the competition it will be because he shows improved ability as a passer and ability to execute Kyle's offense at a high level.

Yep, and he doesn't necessarily need to get up to Brock's level because he does present an entirely different way of threatening a defense (on the ground) that Brock can't offer.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Yep, and he doesn't necessarily need to get up to Brock's level because he does present an entirely different way of threatening a defense (on the ground) that Brock can't offer.

Apparently the film doesn't support that statement.