Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
I think part of the reason it is debated is this thread has a consistent you can't draw definitive conclusions from limited play time, only 4 starts vibe, yet you have definitive conclusions such as our run game will be x,y,z with TL.

A couple thoughts, the ability of the QB to influence the run game is correlated to how dangerous that QB is with the ball in hand. The more dangerous the QB is as a run threat, the more he is drawing the attention of the D. You have actual NFL head coaches, who have said he's not moving very well out there, which I am seeing also, he moves ok I guess, but he does not look dangerous to me, as a runner. So I question how well this 11 v 11 TL run game stuff will work over time, if Ds stop respecting the threat of the TL run.

Furthermore, him getting seriously injured on a QB run, and him being injured throughout both his seasons now, may also be in the head of KS at this point, I am not sure if we lean into this as much going forward, maybe we do, but I am not sure.

While I don't dispute the 11 on 11 talk. I would love to see someone do a cut up of the defenses reaction to Brock and JG in same situations.

I have no clue what the results will show. Just would like to see the difference.

Already did that for you. The team gets more yardage on runs with Brock than with Jimmy, but a little less than with Trey, on a per carry basis. IIRC it was like 4.1 with Jimmy, 5.1 with Brock and 5.3 with Trey. But then Trey never had McCaffrey, so I'm sure there's a McCaffrey factor.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by eric_anthony:

Originally posted by genus49:
Do whatever you want but right now you're arguing against facts.

In 2 of the 3 games he finished Trey was our leading rusher.

He absolutely has to be accounted for in the run game for defenses. That does open things up for the RBs. It's not all Trey but he does add something that defenses have to account for.

I'm not sure why this is being debated

The guy who's debating against it manifestly hates that Trey is on the team, so that's your answer. Go through the "trade Trey" debates and you'll see exactly what I mean.

The debate is not whether running QBs help the run game out in general. It's whether our YPC was up because of Trey last year. The film shows it was not. If we are going to analyze run plays by attributing every little movement the entire defense makes to the QB, then all QBs help the run game

No it doesn't. It CLEARLY AND UNCONTROVERSIALLY shows on some plays middle linebackers and safeties respecting the mesh point and the possibility of him running. These are the ones out of the gun with a single back and a zone-read option.

And literally everyone knows that zone-read action does this when any QB can get consistent yardage on it. Literally everyone knows this but you, it seems. It's not even remotely controversial. I've seen haters of Jimmy. I've seen haters of Trey. I have rarely ever seen this degree of flat denial of obvious reality, backed up by both film and ypc statistics. This is on the order of people saying Jimmy G was better than Aaron Rodgers.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
I know how the run game works with running QBs. Im just looking at the actual runs that skewed our YPC in Treys starts

Do whatever you want but right now you're arguing against facts.

In 2 of the 3 games he finished Trey was our leading rusher.

He absolutely has to be accounted for in the run game for defenses. That does open things up for the RBs. It's not all Trey but he does add something that defenses have to account for.

Defenders watching the mesh point "because of Trey" is a fact? I'm not sure you know what I'm even debating. I showed the defenders watch the mesh point even when Trey isn't the QB, so no I am not debating facts

Because he can run some. And Brock is quick enough to pick up yards doing it too, so they'd be dumb to ignore him in the same situations. As I've already shown, by painstakingly doing the data tracing, Brock does have an effect on ypc but it's a bit less than Trey (and he had McCaffrey and Trey didn't so that probably plays a role).

ANY QB who can actually pick up yards running on a consistent basis is going to cause this reaction. Brock was known to not be a statue and able to move around from the days he was scouted.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by genus49:
You can give the bulk of the credit wherever you want but fact is teams have to play the run with Trey back there differently than they do with Jimmy G or Brock.

Now maybe Brock can use his mobility and run similar plays but that's not the point.

Lance doesn't have to be Lamar or Justin Fields to impact the run game. Teams know we'll run him and that Trey if left unchecked can hurt them in the run game. Whether you want to admit it or not that does make it easier to run the ball.

I know how the run game works with running QBs. Im just looking at the actual runs that skewed our YPC in Treys starts

I literally showed you earlier that if you delete the two big ones you mentioned (claiming Trey's threat didn't suck the two linebackers in), it's still well over a yard more per carry while Trey was in in that game. 3.7 to 2.5.

This means absolutely nothing. It's one drive lol

It means absolutely something when taken in the greater context of TREY'S ENTIRE CAREER shows the same pattern. As I have pointed out several times, the 49ers ypc is well over 5 with Trey and well under 5 without him. In light of that, the smaller sample size is yet more evidence in line with the bigger sample size which flagrantly disagrees with your claim.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by eric_anthony:

Originally posted by genus49:

Do whatever you want but right now you're arguing against facts.

In 2 of the 3 games he finished Trey was our leading rusher.

He absolutely has to be accounted for in the run game for defenses. That does open things up for the RBs. It's not all Trey but he does add something that defenses have to account for.

I'm not sure why this is being debated

The guy who's debating against it manifestly hates that Trey is on the team, so that's your answer. Go through the "trade Trey" debates and you'll see exactly what I mean.

The debate is not whether running QBs help the run game out in general. It's whether our YPC was up because of Trey last year. The film shows it was not. If we are going to analyze run plays by attributing every little movement the entire defense makes to the QB, then all QBs help the run game

No it doesn't. It CLEARLY AND UNCONTROVERSIALLY shows on some plays middle linebackers and safeties respecting the mesh point and the possibility of him running. These are the ones out of the gun with a single back and a zone-read option.

And literally everyone knows that zone-read action does this when any QB can get consistent yardage on it. Literally everyone knows this but you, it seems. It's not even remotely controversial. I've seen haters of Jimmy. I've seen haters of Trey. I have rarely ever seen this degree of flat denial of obvious reality, backed up by both film and ypc statistics. This is on the order of people saying Jimmy G was better than Aaron Rodgers.

You are saying it's because of Trey, when it's not. I don't think you are getting what I'm saying either. I can show Jimmy mesh points too where the defenders don't move. Is that because Trey was standing on the sideline lmao?

We can get that kind of movement without Trey, it is not because of Trey. I'm trying to see where Trey is THE reason for our boosted YPC, and I'm not seeing it.

Yes LBs moved, but to me it's more about the pulling Linmean and not the QB. They would move that way for any QB with 2 lineman pulling to that side. Watching the meshpoint isn't some amazing thing that only happens for Trey

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by genus49:

You can give the bulk of the credit wherever you want but fact is teams have to play the run with Trey back there differently than they do with Jimmy G or Brock.

Now maybe Brock can use his mobility and run similar plays but that's not the point.

Lance doesn't have to be Lamar or Justin Fields to impact the run game. Teams know we'll run him and that Trey if left unchecked can hurt them in the run game. Whether you want to admit it or not that does make it easier to run the ball.

I know how the run game works with running QBs. Im just looking at the actual runs that skewed our YPC in Treys starts

I literally showed you earlier that if you delete the two big ones you mentioned (claiming Trey's threat didn't suck the two linebackers in), it's still well over a yard more per carry while Trey was in in that game. 3.7 to 2.5.

This means absolutely nothing. It's one drive lol

It means absolutely something when taken in the greater context of TREY'S ENTIRE CAREER shows the same pattern. As I have pointed out several times, the 49ers ypc is well over 5 with Trey and well under 5 without him. In light of that, the smaller sample size is yet more evidence in line with the bigger sample size which flagrantly disagrees with your claim.

It's a small sample against crap teams, and I've already shown how 2022 was inflated for reasons outside of Trey. I will need to see a lot more from him before I can say he is some major help to our run game

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by eric_anthony:

Originally posted by genus49:
Do whatever you want but right now you're arguing against facts.

In 2 of the 3 games he finished Trey was our leading rusher.

He absolutely has to be accounted for in the run game for defenses. That does open things up for the RBs. It's not all Trey but he does add something that defenses have to account for.

I'm not sure why this is being debated

The guy who's debating against it manifestly hates that Trey is on the team, so that's your answer. Go through the "trade Trey" debates and you'll see exactly what I mean.

The debate is not whether running QBs help the run game out in general. It's whether our YPC was up because of Trey last year. The film shows it was not. If we are going to analyze run plays by attributing every little movement the entire defense makes to the QB, then all QBs help the run game

No it doesn't. It CLEARLY AND UNCONTROVERSIALLY shows on some plays middle linebackers and safeties respecting the mesh point and the possibility of him running. These are the ones out of the gun with a single back and a zone-read option.

And literally everyone knows that zone-read action does this when any QB can get consistent yardage on it. Literally everyone knows this but you, it seems. It's not even remotely controversial. I've seen haters of Jimmy. I've seen haters of Trey. I have rarely ever seen this degree of flat denial of obvious reality, backed up by both film and ypc statistics. This is on the order of people saying Jimmy G was better than Aaron Rodgers.

You are saying it's because of Trey, when it's not. I don't think you are getting what I'm saying either. I can show Jimmy mesh points too where the defenders don't move. Is that because Trey was standing on the sideline lmao?

We can get that kind of movement without Trey, it is not because of Trey. I'm trying to see where Trey is THE reason for our boosted YPC, and I'm not seeing it.

Yes LBs moved, but to me it's more about the pulling Linmean and not the QB. They would move that way for any QB with 2 lineman pulling to that side. Watching the meshpoint isn't some amazing thing that only happens for Trey

You can show ONE OR TWO instances, but not DATA which supports it. You're going to sit here and pretend this isn't a thing that defenses worry about when playing the 49ers.



Are you really going to pretend with a straight face that this doesn't affect how teams play the 49ers? Especially in light of the FACT OF REALITY that the 49ers gain more yards per carry with Trey under center.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

The hate he has for Trey is ridiculous haha

Originally posted by eric_anthony:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

The hate he has for Trey is ridiculous haha

Must have stolen his girl or something.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by eric_anthony:

Originally posted by genus49:

Do whatever you want but right now you're arguing against facts.

In 2 of the 3 games he finished Trey was our leading rusher.

He absolutely has to be accounted for in the run game for defenses. That does open things up for the RBs. It's not all Trey but he does add something that defenses have to account for.

I'm not sure why this is being debated

The guy who's debating against it manifestly hates that Trey is on the team, so that's your answer. Go through the "trade Trey" debates and you'll see exactly what I mean.

The debate is not whether running QBs help the run game out in general. It's whether our YPC was up because of Trey last year. The film shows it was not. If we are going to analyze run plays by attributing every little movement the entire defense makes to the QB, then all QBs help the run game

No it doesn't. It CLEARLY AND UNCONTROVERSIALLY shows on some plays middle linebackers and safeties respecting the mesh point and the possibility of him running. These are the ones out of the gun with a single back and a zone-read option.

And literally everyone knows that zone-read action does this when any QB can get consistent yardage on it. Literally everyone knows this but you, it seems. It's not even remotely controversial. I've seen haters of Jimmy. I've seen haters of Trey. I have rarely ever seen this degree of flat denial of obvious reality, backed up by both film and ypc statistics. This is on the order of people saying Jimmy G was better than Aaron Rodgers.

You are saying it's because of Trey, when it's not. I don't think you are getting what I'm saying either. I can show Jimmy mesh points too where the defenders don't move. Is that because Trey was standing on the sideline lmao?

We can get that kind of movement without Trey, it is not because of Trey. I'm trying to see where Trey is THE reason for our boosted YPC, and I'm not seeing it.

Yes LBs moved, but to me it's more about the pulling Linmean and not the QB. They would move that way for any QB with 2 lineman pulling to that side. Watching the meshpoint isn't some amazing thing that only happens for Trey

You can show ONE OR TWO instances, but not DATA which supports it. You're going to sit here and pretend this isn't a thing that defenses worry about when playing the 49ers.



Are you really going to pretend with a straight face that this doesn't affect how teams play the 49ers? Especially in light of the FACT OF REALITY that the 49ers gain more yards per carry with Trey under center.

Yes I can say with a straight face that teams do not fear a QB averaging less than 5 ypc. That is awful for a "dual threat". The slight little movements and hesitations you point out do not make me think they are deathly afraid of Trey

Charlie fighting real hard to take the title away from San Diego as the worst/less knowledgeable poster on the zone. You're doing great kid, keep it up!

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Charlie fighting real hard to take the title away from San Diego as the worst/less knowledgeable poster on the zone. You're doing great kid, keep it up!

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
You can show ONE OR TWO instances, but not DATA which supports it. You're going to sit here and pretend this isn't a thing that defenses worry about when playing the 49ers.



Are you really going to pretend with a straight face that this doesn't affect how teams play the 49ers? Especially in light of the FACT OF REALITY that the 49ers gain more yards per carry with Trey under center.

Was that 3rd and 13? Showing these clips with no context doesn't always tell the full story.

third and long, they don't play him the same because they don't think he will run that far to convert.

im not arguing that he doesn't add an element to the run game. Lol just saying that the run you posted doesn't mean much, nor explain why the defense played him like that.

update: funny thing is, I looked up the play and it was 3 & 13. Lmao he converted it though.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
I think part of the reason it is debated is this thread has a consistent you can't draw definitive conclusions from limited play time, only 4 starts vibe, yet you have definitive conclusions such as our run game will be x,y,z with TL.

A couple thoughts, the ability of the QB to influence the run game is correlated to how dangerous that QB is with the ball in hand. The more dangerous the QB is as a run threat, the more he is drawing the attention of the D. You have actual NFL head coaches, who have said he's not moving very well out there, which I am seeing also, he moves ok I guess, but he does not look dangerous to me, as a runner. So I question how well this 11 v 11 TL run game stuff will work over time, if Ds stop respecting the threat of the TL run.

Furthermore, him getting seriously injured on a QB run, and him being injured throughout both his seasons now, may also be in the head of KS at this point, I am not sure if we lean into this as much going forward, maybe we do, but I am not sure.

While I don't dispute the 11 on 11 talk. I would love to see someone do a cut up of the defenses reaction to Brock and JG in same situations.

I have no clue what the results will show. Just would like to see the difference.

Already did that for you. The team gets more yardage on runs with Brock than with Jimmy, but a little less than with Trey, on a per carry basis. IIRC it was like 4.1 with Jimmy, 5.1 with Brock and 5.3 with Trey. But then Trey never had McCaffrey, so I'm sure there's a McCaffrey factor.

I don't dispute your numbers. However, I wanted video clips to see the defense's reaction with Brock/JG compared to Trey.

Like the ones where someone showed the LBs coming up with Trey. Do they do that with Brock/JG? all I want to see.

Again, not because I dispute any of this. Just want to see it.