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Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

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Jun 5, 2023 at 11:49 AM
Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
LOL still debating meaningless stats regarding TL our 3rd/4th string QB

Pretty sure nobody is forcing you to go into this thread. Surely there is a potato famine somewhere you can assist with.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:07 PM
Nice article on him in the athletic and how he is impressing coaching staff
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:17 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Except that those big plays that are taken then open up the run game as evidenced by the 40 yard difference once Brock became the starter. The exact point that was being argued on why the run WAS being stuffed.

Brock made teams defend the whole field.

Did he though? Did teams defend him any differently than Jimmy? IMO CMC transformed the offense more than Brock did.

You both kind of covered my point.

Taking Kyle's (set up via schemed up) 2-3 deep shots a game isn't going to affect much of anything. It certainly is unlikely to help the run game. It doesn't even guarantee more points on the board.

Hence why Kyle gets annoyed at the topic...why risk the big bomb when you can achieve the same thing on the end while wearing down your opponent, keeping their offense on the sidelines, and control the clock.

This is who Kyle is as an actual head coach and that's unlikely to change after this much time. I'd just focus more in the other 95% of the offense.

Kyle prefers the mini-explosive plays.

Kyle has said he prefers a QB who takes the open down field guy over the open check down. He does not prefer marching down the field slowly unless it's with the run, and that is to set up the bomb.

Why do you insist on this false belief? JIMMY GAROPPOLO is the reason the offense started resembling the Patriots offense. Kyle wants to attack. He did it in Atlanta. He did it in Washington. He did it in Cleveland. He did it his first year with the 49ers. He did it with Trey Lance. He also did it with Purdy. Not a drive goes by where there aren't deep concepts.

I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?
Regardless of this useless tangent, you do not need sub 4.4 speed to be a deep threat in the NFL. You don't even need sub 4.5 speed to be a deep threat. Jerry Rice AT BEST ran a 4.5 or 4.6, and supposedly was measured as a 4.7 guy. And he was DEFINITELY a deep threat. You can be a deep threat by winning at the line, or winning with route running (on posts, corners, double moves, etc).

Talking about Kyle's draft habits has nothing to do with his play calls. It is manifestly obviously he calls many plays with deep shots built in. Nor does it change the fact that he literally said he likes QBs to not pass up the open deep play, qualifying it with if the QB goes short instead but it works that he won't complain.

Also why'd he draft Gray?

Kyle's plays literally have deep shots almost all the time. They attack all three levels. The claim that he wants to short pass up and down the field is MADE UP and based on nothing but lingering Jimmy Garoppolo apologetics.
[ Edited by 5_Golden_Rings on Jun 5, 2023 at 12:18 PM ]
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:21 PM
Yes he literally said that.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:30 PM
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Nice article on him in the athletic and how he is impressing coaching staff

That's great to hear. Good on him!

Any cliff notes?
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:34 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.

He literally said it's not. And it is not. It's Mike Shanahan's offense, which was the Denver Broncos and Los Angeles Raiders offense in the late 80s and early 90s, with elements added from Jon Gruden's offense (which is a version of the West Coast Offense). It's a hybrid.

And Mike Shanahan arrived, only the WCO run offense and terminology remained. You immediately saw spread formations, tight ends split out, and a dramatic increase in play-action. I challenge you to watch old games with Mike Holmgren calling the plays and compare them to Mike Shanahan's play calling. It's not the same offense. There is carryover, but it's not the same.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:35 PM
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


I would've loved to see how Bill would coach in today's NFL. There is a pretty cool conversation to be had in regards to whether the rules of today would make him adjust his philosophy.

No question deep stuff is called low % throws for a reason. They're harder to hit but with the rules being so pro offense today there is a much higher chance of a deep shot being a completion or PI than back in the 70s/80s. Defensive players are a lot faster and linebackers have for the most part gotten smaller to account for the passing game being so big now. I'd be curious if Bill would consider that a good thing for the WCO since you can power through those guys more than you could 250+ lb linebackers who hit like trucks or if their quickness would cause him to open things up down the field more.

I also wonder about Kyle's train of thought on the receivers he's brought in. How much was it due to Jimmy G's deficiencies? I don't think it's a coincidence that we drafted Gray soon as Trey was supposed to be QB1. It will be interesting how Gray looks moving forward and if he's considered irrelevant with Brock being the likely starter.

I would think Bill Walsh would've evolved his system to keep up with modern defenses, but still keeping some of his principles.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:36 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Nice article on him in the athletic and how he is impressing coaching staff

That's great to hear. Good on him!

Any cliff notes?
49ers coaches like what they're seeing with Trey Lance's feetThough outside observers have been obsessed with Trey Lance's right arm during OTAs, his coaches have been focused on his feet.

They like what they've seen.

"Getting to know Trey and watching his film from previous years, I see a lot of improvement in his overall mechanics," passing game specialist Klint Kubiak said. "What stands out is his footwork. And I think that's stuff that (quarterbacks coach) Brian (Griese) and (assistant quarterbacks coach) Klay (Kubiak) definitely have worked on. He just seems really comfortable with what you're asking him to do. I love how his feet have progressed at this point of his career."
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:39 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.

I mean how often do we see posters bring up plays from Walsh years to show parallels to the plays being ran now.

Of course, no one truly runs a west coast offense like Bill did. By now, It's all just variations of it. But they do keep some of the principles.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:42 PM
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
This is the Trey Lance thread but the entire page is all about Brock. Maybe this is why the arguments and comments get so confusing.

I have been saying this for over 10 years (but has always been shut down by admins), but we need a QB thread, not specific threads for every QB. We havent had a true franchise QB since Steve Young. So given the state of the QB position for a long time, I really dont see why we couldnt throw QB discussion in one thread. It would help admins/mods out by not having to police which discussion belongs in each thread.

I dont see a negative to this idea, but I dont run this board so if mods/admins want them separate, I guess thats fine.

I agree that's a good idea. I'm on this website every day and I often get confused when reading comments. I have to go back and check which thread I'm on when comments start to wander off subject, which happens a lot. Arguments often run several pages and as they do they tend to veer into other areas.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Nice article on him in the athletic and how he is impressing coaching staff

That's great to hear. Good on him!

Any cliff notes?
49ers coaches like what they're seeing with Trey Lance's feetThough outside observers have been obsessed with Trey Lance's right arm during OTAs, his coaches have been focused on his feet.

They like what they've seen.

"Getting to know Trey and watching his film from previous years, I see a lot of improvement in his overall mechanics," passing game specialist Klint Kubiak said. "What stands out is his footwork. And I think that's stuff that (quarterbacks coach) Brian (Griese) and (assistant quarterbacks coach) Klay (Kubiak) definitely have worked on. He just seems really comfortable with what you're asking him to do. I love how his feet have progressed at this point of his career."

Nice.

He just needs to keep grinding. And ball out when his number is called.
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:44 PM
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Regardless of this useless tangent, you do not need sub 4.4 speed to be a deep threat in the NFL. You don't even need sub 4.5 speed to be a deep threat. Jerry Rice AT BEST ran a 4.5 or 4.6, and supposedly was measured as a 4.7 guy. And he was DEFINITELY a deep threat. You can be a deep threat by winning at the line, or winning with route running (on posts, corners, double moves, etc).

Talking about Kyle's draft habits has nothing to do with his play calls. It is manifestly obviously he calls many plays with deep shots built in. Nor does it change the fact that he literally said he likes QBs to not pass up the open deep play, qualifying it with if the QB goes short instead but it works that he won't complain.

Also why'd he draft Gray?

Kyle's plays literally have deep shots almost all the time. They attack all three levels. The claim that he wants to short pass up and down the field is MADE UP and based on nothing but lingering Jimmy Garoppolo apologetics.

100%
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.




I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol


"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.

I mean how often do we see posters bring up plays from Walsh years to show parallels to the plays being ran now.

Of course, no one truly runs a west coast offense like Bill did. By now, It's all just variations of it. But they do keep some of the principles.

The entire NFL is variations of it if you want to call our offense the WCO.

Dwight Clark after Mike Shanahan left the 49ers: "Nothing against Mike, but he didn't do what we do. We need to get back to our roots."

The similarities between what Kyle runs and what Mike ran are significantly greater than what Kyle runs and what Bill Walsh ran. I mean, am I the only 49ers fan that has copies of games from the Super Bowl winning years? There is definitely a difference and it started in 1992.
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