Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Except that those big plays that are taken then open up the run game as evidenced by the 40 yard difference once Brock became the starter. The exact point that was being argued on why the run WAS being stuffed.

Brock made teams defend the whole field.

Did he though? Did teams defend him any differently than Jimmy? IMO CMC transformed the offense more than Brock did.

You both kind of covered my point.

Taking Kyle's (set up via schemed up) 2-3 deep shots a game isn't going to affect much of anything. It certainly is unlikely to help the run game. It doesn't even guarantee more points on the board.

Hence why Kyle gets annoyed at the topic...why risk the big bomb when you can achieve the same thing on the end while wearing down your opponent, keeping their offense on the sidelines, and control the clock.

This is who Kyle is as an actual head coach and that's unlikely to change after this much time. I'd just focus more in the other 95% of the offense.

Kyle prefers the mini-explosive plays.

Kyle has said he prefers a QB who takes the open down field guy over the open check down. He does not prefer marching down the field slowly unless it's with the run, and that is to set up the bomb.

Why do you insist on this false belief? JIMMY GAROPPOLO is the reason the offense started resembling the Patriots offense. Kyle wants to attack. He did it in Atlanta. He did it in Washington. He did it in Cleveland. He did it his first year with the 49ers. He did it with Trey Lance. He also did it with Purdy. Not a drive goes by where there aren't deep concepts.

+ Show all quotes
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

Regardless of this useless tangent, you do not need sub 4.4 speed to be a deep threat in the NFL. You don't even need sub 4.5 speed to be a deep threat. Jerry Rice AT BEST ran a 4.5 or 4.6, and supposedly was measured as a 4.7 guy. And he was DEFINITELY a deep threat. You can be a deep threat by winning at the line, or winning with route running (on posts, corners, double moves, etc).

Talking about Kyle's draft habits has nothing to do with his play calls. It is manifestly obviously he calls many plays with deep shots built in. Nor does it change the fact that he literally said he likes QBs to not pass up the open deep play, qualifying it with if the QB goes short instead but it works that he won't complain.

Also why'd he draft Gray?

Kyle's plays literally have deep shots almost all the time. They attack all three levels. The claim that he wants to short pass up and down the field is MADE UP and based on nothing but lingering Jimmy Garoppolo apologetics.

Then who were our deep threats with Brock? CMC?

I agree speed isn't the determining factor in becoming a consistent deep threat. Maybe I define one differently but I define a deep threat as a player who consistently wins deep and makes those catches enough to give both a HC and QB confidence to draw those plays up more as primaries or just chuck it up there under duress knowing your guy will make a play.

Gray gives us that speed we lost with Goodwin which does help on in breaking routes and all 12 of our underneath receivers. In Goodwin's case, his speed did need to be respected despite rarely ever going to him deep also.

Most route trees have 'deeper' routes. But we don't have any guys who consistently run them and win timely. And everyone runs them from CMC to Juice to Kittle to Aiyuk to Deebo to Jennings. Hopefully Gray can join this year too.

Gray too fast on go routes for Brock's arm lol

He was drafted for Trey and with Brock provides much less utility.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.

Bill Walsh's great discovery was that decreasing air yards increased cmp %, 1st down conversion rate, yards per attempt, points per drive, and QB rating.

Spread the gospel my fellow WCO acolytes pic.twitter.com/WxXS14X0oe

— Danny G (@DannyG_49) June 1, 2023

Create a custom 49ers jersey ⇨

pic.twitter.com/njhdV4AnKS

— Allan Basso (@Endzone51) June 1, 2023

Decreasing air yards also increases YAC. Last year for every 1 yard reduction in intended air yards resulted in ~0.6 extra YAC. pic.twitter.com/rfOI10dgK4

— Sensible Moderate (@sensiblemoderat) June 1, 2023

I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol

pic.twitter.com/RTGsZKPJjX

— Allan Basso (@Endzone51) June 1, 2023

"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.

I mean how often do we see posters bring up plays from Walsh years to show parallels to the plays being ran now.

Of course, no one truly runs a west coast offense like Bill did. By now, It's all just variations of it. But they do keep some of the principles.

+ Show all quotes
Niners816 has his entire playbook. It's WCO. Sure he'll modify things and add things. But even the terminology is still WCO. But it's Kyle...so he probably wants it named after him because it's unique to him. Let's call it the West Cancun Offense and everyone is happy.

There are more or less only three terminology systems used widespread in the NFL: digit, Walsh, and Erhardt-Perkins. A terminology system is not an offensive scheme. When Mike Shanahan came to the 49ers, he changed his terminology to the WCO terminology, but kept most of the Bronco's/Raider's passing concepts (the only obvious change is a removal of shotgun because of Steve Young's preference), and kept the 49ers run offenes. Kyle cut his teeth on Jon Gruden's and Mike Shanahan's scheme. That is why Kyle's actual offense is really an amalgam of all the successful offensive concepts in NFL history. That's actually probably the real reason he said he doesn't run the West Coast Offense. Because he doesn't. He's taken elements from everything that works, and if there's anything that obviously lingers form previous offenses, it's Mike Shanahan's zone-run scheme.

Regardless, terminology does not determine what a scheme is. The West Coast Offense, the REAL West Coast Offense, utilizes balanced formations and short passes in place of the run to control the ball. Kyle's offense using unbalanced formations and the run and short passes to set up the DEEP pass. But every now and then you'll see an old Bill Walsh play ripped right from the 80s. Because Kyle doesn't run one offense. He runs them all, with, again, the only real exception is the zone-run scheme. But even that isn't gospel with him, as he'll throw in man-blocking and other key changes from time to time.

.
.

Regarding those playbooks, some of those playbooks are available on the internet, or at least they used to be. Mike Holmgren's playbook (the ACTUAL WCO) is different from Kyle's. It's even different from Mike Shanahan's including terminology (for example, Mike Holmgren called a split back formation "Red" and Mike Shanahan called it "Split"; some where the same, such as "double wing")

That's perfectly fair. The dude is always evolving and has been an OC for 40 years. He doesn't have a Greg Roman hodge podge playbook. I just think the plays and terminology are grounded mostly in WCO foundation/principles.

But he can call it whatever he wants...or doesn't want.

Appreciate the discussion.

It's always a fun conversation. Here is some fun stuff:

1985 49ers:
https://www.footballxos.com/download/1985-san-francisco-49ers-west-coast-offense-bill-walsh-pdf/

2000 Seahawks:
https://www.footballxos.com/download/2000-seattle-seahawks-offense-pdf/

Notice that even 15 years later, for example, "Red" means split formation. In a Kyle's Falcon playbook I've had, "Red" was used for split, but for some other 2 back formations, instead of colors like Walsh and Holmgren, he just used the description of the formation. For example, instead of "Green" for I, Shanahan just used I-Right, Strong, Weak, etc.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1dQN43WO-xoyE0kWFE9ZwPZP4MrTDFUdQ

.
.

But what I think is important here is that neither terminology nor playbooks define an offensive system. Mike Martz had the same terminology as the 1990s Cowboys, but the Rams were definitely running a different offense. Rather than I-form run to set up the deep pass that Norv Turner favored, this was a pass to set up the pass offense, with zone runs often from a single back set sprinkled in to finish games. You didn't see the same spread formations, motions, empty sets and third and long offense on first down with the Cowboys that you saw with the Rams.

Conversely, the 1990s Packers were definitely running the West Coast Offense. The major change they had was moving from a split back run game to an I-formation run game. But the 49ers also went to that with Steve Mariucci, so by the late 90s at least two teams were running the closest thing to a true WCO there had been since Bill Walsh.

But if you ask Steve Young, terminology, plays, even play-calling style wasn't what made the West Coast Offense. It was marrying the QB's footwork to the routes that really defined it. And I hate to say it, but that isn't really something you see today with so much of the passing game based on the shotgun.

https://a.espncdn.com/nfl/s/westcoast/defining.html

Originally posted by Steve Young:

The offense cannot be taught or run based solely on a playbook. If a coach has no history in the West Coast and wants to teach it based on a playbook, he wouldn't get it. Timing and choreography, not plays, are what make the West Coast offense.
[...]
Two weeks ago I visited the Patriots and met with quarterback Tom Brady. When I asked him about his drops and his reads, he said everything is about finding space, zone routes, man-zone reads, short drops and timing. Brady's footwork tells him when to throw the ball. So, while offensive coordinator Charlie Weis has no West Coast history or ties to Walsh and the 49ers system in his coaching background, the Patriots essentially are running the West Coast offense.

Originally posted by Ezekiel38:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Except that those big plays that are taken then open up the run game as evidenced by the 40 yard difference once Brock became the starter. The exact point that was being argued on why the run WAS being stuffed.

Brock made teams defend the whole field.

Did he though? Did teams defend him any differently than Jimmy? IMO CMC transformed the offense more than Brock did.

You both kind of covered my point.

Taking Kyle's (set up via schemed up) 2-3 deep shots a game isn't going to affect much of anything. It certainly is unlikely to help the run game. It doesn't even guarantee more points on the board.

Hence why Kyle gets annoyed at the topic...why risk the big bomb when you can achieve the same thing on the end while wearing down your opponent, keeping their offense on the sidelines, and control the clock.

This is who Kyle is as an actual head coach and that's unlikely to change after this much time. I'd just focus more in the other 95% of the offense.

Kyle prefers the mini-explosive plays.

Kyle has said he prefers a QB who takes the open down field guy over the open check down. He does not prefer marching down the field slowly unless it's with the run, and that is to set up the bomb.

Why do you insist on this false belief? JIMMY GAROPPOLO is the reason the offense started resembling the Patriots offense. Kyle wants to attack. He did it in Atlanta. He did it in Washington. He did it in Cleveland. He did it his first year with the 49ers. He did it with Trey Lance. He also did it with Purdy. Not a drive goes by where there aren't deep concepts.

I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

+ Show all quotes Regardless of this useless tangent, you do not need sub 4.4 speed to be a deep threat in the NFL. You don't even need sub 4.5 speed to be a deep threat. Jerry Rice AT BEST ran a 4.5 or 4.6, and supposedly was measured as a 4.7 guy. And he was DEFINITELY a deep threat. You can be a deep threat by winning at the line, or winning with route running (on posts, corners, double moves, etc).

Talking about Kyle's draft habits has nothing to do with his play calls. It is manifestly obviously he calls many plays with deep shots built in. Nor does it change the fact that he literally said he likes QBs to not pass up the open deep play, qualifying it with if the QB goes short instead but it works that he won't complain.

Also why'd he draft Gray?

Kyle's plays literally have deep shots almost all the time. They attack all three levels. The claim that he wants to short pass up and down the field is MADE UP and based on nothing but lingering Jimmy Garoppolo apologetics.

Then who were our deep threats with Brock? CMC?

I agree speed isn't the determining factor in becoming a consistent deep threat. Maybe I define one differently but I define a deep threat as a player who consistently wins deep and makes those catches enough to give both a HC and QB confidence to draw those plays up more as primaries or just chuck it up there under duress knowing your guy will make a play.

Gray gives us that speed we lost with Goodwin which does help on in breaking routes and all 12 of our underneath receivers. In Goodwin's case, his speed did need to be respected despite rarely ever going to him deep also.

Most route trees have 'deeper' routes. But we don't have any guys who consistently run them and win timely. And everyone runs them from CMC to Juice to Kittle to Aiyuk to Deebo to Jennings. Hopefully Gray can join this year too.

Gray too fast on go routes for Brock's arm lol

He was drafted for Trey and with Brock provides much less utility.

What? Lol all that means is Brock needs to get the ball out faster.Trey can afford to be late throwing to him, Brock can't. But Brock can still find him deep. Just have to anticipate more.

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good point, that's the other option - sign Trey long term somewhere in 2024.

Personally, I think Trey will progress this year and be a viable competitor to Purdy as QB1. Again, I'm assuming if Kyle can get Purdy up to speed the way he was as a backup to Jimmy, why not Trey? I don't see any mental handicaps to Trey preventing him from developing his intangibles the way Purdy did behind Jimmy. What has been hindering Trey is his durability - which was a knock-on Jimmy also. But even with Jimmy's durability issues, ShanaLynch decided to keep Jimmy anyway. In fact, I think *because of Brock* ShanaLynch now has the luxury of actually keeping Trey long term.

Here's how that would work out in my mind. Brock is QB1 and starts game 1 in the 2023 season. Trey also needs to beat out Sam for QB2 this season. Trey *has shown progress* (example - tightened up mechanics) and *hopefully* will show good progress in training camp and pre-season. Kyle keeps him this year (2023) and doesn't trade Trey. Kyle allows Trey to play in blowout games or games where Kyle wants to protect Purdy from injury - and Trey does well this year. Because Purdy locks down the QB1 position, I think that frees up Kyle to continue to develop Trey in 2024. He'll keep Trey because he's cheap compared to other backup QB's out there in 2024. (Trey's salary in 2024 = 10 million) current backup QB's future average salary at that time could be in the neighborhood of 9+ million - very comparable. I think if Kyle sees the potential for Trey to either win the QB1 position *or* develop to where Kyle can get better trade value in 2025 - that is *one* way for Trey to stay on with the 49ers for a much longer term.

Very good post!

Then the question becomes does Lance want to stay here as a backup for four to five years. My guess is no, idk who would want that as a player. He would benefit a lot but he will benefit more from playing.

if I was him, and I didn't get to start this year, I'm asking to be traded. Hoping the guy infront of you gets injured so you can play isn't a great plan.

Danke LVW!

I would think Trey would want to stay, considering he's playing with a QB in Sam who was stuck in some crap teams and never (I think) was under a good QB coach that could develop him property for the NFL game. I'm sure Trey will talk to Sam about his career and NFL experiences and the resons for Sam comming to the 49ers. I think Sam Darnold will say that he could have gone to any other team and gotten paid more, but he came to Kyle to develop his QB skills and was willing to take a pay cut in doing so.

I think Trey's best bet is to stay with Kyle as long as he can - and once he does develop, now he can command some brinks trucks, or stay with the 49ers. I would think getting a pay cut to stay one more year with Kyle would be a good investment if Trey can showcase his talent, or at least develop to where he can go to any team and be a great QB despite having a crap offensive coordinator or a crap Defensively minded head coach. Of course, the key here is that Trey stays until the end of his rookie contract - and if he can't beat out Sam this year for the QB2 spot, that becomes much harder to do.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good point, that's the other option - sign Trey long term somewhere in 2024.

Personally, I think Trey will progress this year and be a viable competitor to Purdy as QB1. Again, I'm assuming if Kyle can get Purdy up to speed the way he was as a backup to Jimmy, why not Trey? I don't see any mental handicaps to Trey preventing him from developing his intangibles the way Purdy did behind Jimmy. What has been hindering Trey is his durability - which was a knock-on Jimmy also. But even with Jimmy's durability issues, ShanaLynch decided to keep Jimmy anyway. In fact, I think *because of Brock* ShanaLynch now has the luxury of actually keeping Trey long term.

Here's how that would work out in my mind. Brock is QB1 and starts game 1 in the 2023 season. Trey also needs to beat out Sam for QB2 this season. Trey *has shown progress* (example - tightened up mechanics) and *hopefully* will show good progress in training camp and pre-season. Kyle keeps him this year (2023) and doesn't trade Trey. Kyle allows Trey to play in blowout games or games where Kyle wants to protect Purdy from injury - and Trey does well this year. Because Purdy locks down the QB1 position, I think that frees up Kyle to continue to develop Trey in 2024. He'll keep Trey because he's cheap compared to other backup QB's out there in 2024. (Trey's salary in 2024 = 10 million) current backup QB's future average salary at that time could be in the neighborhood of 9+ million - very comparable. I think if Kyle sees the potential for Trey to either win the QB1 position *or* develop to where Kyle can get better trade value in 2025 - that is *one* way for Trey to stay on with the 49ers for a much longer term.

+ Show all quotes
Very good post!

Then the question becomes does Lance want to stay here as a backup for four to five years. My guess is no, idk who would want that as a player. He would benefit a lot but he will benefit more from playing.

if I was him, and I didn't get to start this year, I'm asking to be traded. Hoping the guy infront of you gets injured so you can play isn't a great plan.

Danke LVW!

I would think Trey would want to stay, considering he's playing with a QB in Sam who was stuck in some crap teams and never (I think) was under a good QB coach that could develop him property for the NFL game. I'm sure Trey will talk to Sam about his career and NFL experiences and the resons for Sam comming to the 49ers. I think Sam Darnold will say that he could have gone to any other team and gotten paid more, but he came to Kyle to develop his QB skills and was willing to take a pay cut in doing so.

I think Trey's best bet is to stay with Kyle as long as he can - and once he does develop, now he can command some brinks trucks, or stay with the 49ers. I would think getting a pay cut to stay one more year with Kyle would be a good investment if Trey can showcase his talent, or at least develop to where he can go to any team and be a great QB despite having a crap offensive coordinator or a crap Defensively minded head coach. Of course, the key here is that Trey stays until the end of his rookie contract - and if he can't beat out Sam this year for the QB2 spot, that becomes much harder to do.

I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

lol.. and who would that be?

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

lord help you if you are watching Jalen Hurts and you are watching Trey Lance and you think they are on the same level, running the football
I am just floored by this thread on a daily basis

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

Hard to see a scenario where Trey wouldn't be QB2 if it's a situation where the coaches deem playing him or Darnold would be a toss-up. Not even factoring the ability to run special packages using Lance's running ability.

I personally don't think the 49ers would have signed Darnold in the fashion they did if they thought this would be a toss-up, but obviously they didn't have the luxury of seeing whether Lance has improved. By the end of camp/preseason though, it will likely be clear.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

+ Show all quotes
lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

lord help you if you are watching Jalen Hurts and you are watching Trey Lance and you think they are on the same level, running the football
I am just floored by this thread on a daily basis

Where did he say they were on the same level? Come on faithful.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

+ Show all quotes
lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

lord help you if you are watching Jalen Hurts and you are watching Trey Lance and you think they are on the same level, running the football
I am just floored by this thread on a daily basis

He gives Trey the credit for runs that have nothing to do with him, so it might not be about being on Hurts level as an individual. Somebody posted a run play on Reddit that he gave Trey the credit for, and not one person in the comments mentions Trey lol

Here it is:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/140jve0/highlight_deebo_samuel_turns_a_loss_into_a_51/

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Where did he say they were on the same level? Come on faithful.

😂

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
He literally said it's not. And it is not. It's Mike Shanahan's offense, which was the Denver Broncos and Los Angeles Raiders offense in the late 80s and early 90s, with elements added from Jon Gruden's offense (which is a version of the West Coast Offense). It's a hybrid.

And Mike Shanahan arrived, only the WCO run offense and terminology remained. You immediately saw spread formations, tight ends split out, and a dramatic increase in play-action. I challenge you to watch old games with Mike Holmgren calling the plays and compare them to Mike Shanahan's play calling. It's not the same offense. There is carryover, but it's not the same.

This

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Good point, that's the other option - sign Trey long term somewhere in 2024.

Personally, I think Trey will progress this year and be a viable competitor to Purdy as QB1. Again, I'm assuming if Kyle can get Purdy up to speed the way he was as a backup to Jimmy, why not Trey? I don't see any mental handicaps to Trey preventing him from developing his intangibles the way Purdy did behind Jimmy. What has been hindering Trey is his durability - which was a knock-on Jimmy also. But even with Jimmy's durability issues, ShanaLynch decided to keep Jimmy anyway. In fact, I think *because of Brock* ShanaLynch now has the luxury of actually keeping Trey long term.

Here's how that would work out in my mind. Brock is QB1 and starts game 1 in the 2023 season. Trey also needs to beat out Sam for QB2 this season. Trey *has shown progress* (example - tightened up mechanics) and *hopefully* will show good progress in training camp and pre-season. Kyle keeps him this year (2023) and doesn't trade Trey. Kyle allows Trey to play in blowout games or games where Kyle wants to protect Purdy from injury - and Trey does well this year. Because Purdy locks down the QB1 position, I think that frees up Kyle to continue to develop Trey in 2024. He'll keep Trey because he's cheap compared to other backup QB's out there in 2024. (Trey's salary in 2024 = 10 million) current backup QB's future average salary at that time could be in the neighborhood of 9+ million - very comparable. I think if Kyle sees the potential for Trey to either win the QB1 position *or* develop to where Kyle can get better trade value in 2025 - that is *one* way for Trey to stay on with the 49ers for a much longer term.

Very good post!

+ Show all quotes
Then the question becomes does Lance want to stay here as a backup for four to five years. My guess is no, idk who would want that as a player. He would benefit a lot but he will benefit more from playing.

if I was him, and I didn't get to start this year, I'm asking to be traded. Hoping the guy infront of you gets injured so you can play isn't a great plan.

Danke LVW!

I would think Trey would want to stay, considering he's playing with a QB in Sam who was stuck in some crap teams and never (I think) was under a good QB coach that could develop him property for the NFL game. I'm sure Trey will talk to Sam about his career and NFL experiences and the resons for Sam comming to the 49ers. I think Sam Darnold will say that he could have gone to any other team and gotten paid more, but he came to Kyle to develop his QB skills and was willing to take a pay cut in doing so.

I think Trey's best bet is to stay with Kyle as long as he can - and once he does develop, now he can command some brinks trucks, or stay with the 49ers. I would think getting a pay cut to stay one more year with Kyle would be a good investment if Trey can showcase his talent, or at least develop to where he can go to any team and be a great QB despite having a crap offensive coordinator or a crap Defensively minded head coach. Of course, the key here is that Trey stays until the end of his rookie contract - and if he can't beat out Sam this year for the QB2 spot, that becomes much harder to do.

I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

Yeah, I think Trey sees the field regardless of if he's QB2/3 because his skill set allows us to run unique packages with him running/throwing/catching. I'm not the biggest fan of him taking qb snaps in those packages because it messes up rhythm but I think lining him up on the field will confuse the defense and create unique opportunities.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

+ Show all quotes
lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

lord help you if you are watching Jalen Hurts and you are watching Trey Lance and you think they are on the same level, running the football
I am just floored by this thread on a daily basis

Right.

Attempts per broken tackle:
Hurts: 20.4
Trey: 8.0
(Lower is better; Lamar Jackson was also 8.0 last year. Jimmy had 46 in 2019. Josh Allen was 10.2 in 2021 and 24.2 last year).

Yards after contact per attempt (each year of their career):
Hurts: 1.1, 1.0, 0.8
Trey: 1.4, 1.1

Trey runs through contact more.
.
.

I know it's hard to set aside your intuition and opinion and actually look at observable reality, but you may want to try it at some point. Trey is solid at QB power and draws straight up the gut. It's what he's good at as a runner.

This right here:



Not this: