Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Literally the only thing those spray charts show is kyle calling plays that their QBs can make. Do you think Jimmy is gonna head to the Raiders and start pushing it downfield a ton? Do you think if Brock got tossed in a Arians offense that he would all of a sudden be leading the league in air yards? Not a chance. That chart shows that those QBs have similar skill sets. That's all.

was kyle calling in breaking routes and screens when RG3 was the QB? Nah. Dude is forming his scheme around the QBs skill set. It's why he couldn't toggle between Jimmy and Lance his rookie yr. Different skill sets require different play calling.

Acting like how he constructed his offense is proof to them not wanting to push the ball downfield is ridiculous. BA is absolutely a deep threat. Go look at Deebo when lance was throwing, PA deep ball TDs. Danny gray deep threat. Even Pettis was regarded as a full field WR. Not just a possession WR. He clearly couldn't do what he was doing in college here all said and done.

Reports are they wanted DK and Deebo. He DRAFTED Lance for what? His ability to throw a two yard slant or a screen pass? f**k no.

Not a chance kyle plays "conservative" if he's got Allen/burrow/Herbert/Mahomes. Talent matters with play calling.

RGIII rookie year charts sure looks like a lot of in breaking routes
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1796312-robert-griffins-knee-continues-to-be-root-of-his-problems-in-2013-season

@NY85

Perhaps it would be better if you could state how you envision Kyle, Trey and this offense ideally compared to the differences we've seen under Jimmy/Brock.

Like, are you expecting a much higher volume of passes? A more pass centric offense? Jimmy/Brock high end efficiency but with far more explosives (six 20+ shots a game) and 50 yards rushing a game? RZ differences? With Trey at the helm and developed, how would Kyle's offense be so different and it's ceiling?

Just curious...

"...really, our drop-back passing game...is just about keeping the chains moving..." JD drop:

https://www.youtube.com/live/h7n7sjV-1Ec?feature=share

Originally posted by NCommand:
Jimmy? Jimmy has the 3rd highest air yards ever behind Otto Graham and one other per GP. Also per Greg Panelli, this is certainly a bottom tier passing game here; even with Brock, in volume and design and priority.

https://castbox.fm/x/33gtE

Yes, Kyle would change the whole offense for Trey but clearly, he's not into that anymore. He loves his Cousins, Garoppolo and Brock-style QB's > Griffin and Lance.

And since he runs this b***h, there's no doubt this is how HE rolls after 7 years.

As to Jimmy back in a spread offense, I actually expect him to become more of a check down QB in that system. Here? We had no check downs options here for his career, nor deep threats so he and Kyle lived in the 7 to 15 yard range, live or die. That's why he's #3 all time in that stat.

What does Danny Gray prove to you? He'll be lucky to steal 100 snaps from Aiyuk at the X. Kyle likes versatility and different skill sets for scheming. Nothing more. None of the guys you listed are consistent deep threats here. Not even close.

Kyle is conservative by nature esp. as a HC where he's responsible for an entire team, not just a YOLO OC trying to get a HCing job. Here are additional examples of that:

https://castbox.fm/x/33TOq

You need to get your head out of the clouds and focus more on who Kyle is here after 7 years. This is his team. His system. His philosophy. And his personnel. He's the one constant in a consistent theme despite the players changing.

Brock or Trey will never be 48th in passes thrown over 20+ yards over the next 5 years.

Originally posted by krizay:
RGIII rookie year charts sure looks like a lot of in breaking routes
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1796312-robert-griffins-knee-continues-to-be-root-of-his-problems-in-2013-season

I don't know what any of that means….does it say in breaking routes?

You'll notice how well Griffin delivered the ball down the field. He had ratings of 104.9 to the deep left, 87.3 to the deep middle and 140 to the deep right. These were on passes that traveled at least 20 yards down the field.

Originally posted by NCommand:
@NY85

Perhaps it would be better if you could state how you envision Kyle, Trey and this offense ideally compared to the differences we've seen under Jimmy/Brock.

Like, are you expecting a much higher volume of passes? A more pass centric offense? Jimmy/Brock high end efficiency but with far more explosives (six 20+ shots a game) and 50 yards rushing a game? RZ differences? With Trey at the helm and developed, how would Kyle's offense be so different and it's ceiling?

Just curious...

"...really, our drop-back passing game...is just about keeping the chains moving..." JD drop:

https://www.youtube.com/live/h7n7sjV-1Ec?feature=share

My debate with you is your vision of kyle and wanting to not have an explosive offense. Saying he's completely conservative and allergic to wanting to use the whole field.

what I'm saying is he's calling plays based off his QBs skill set. If they QB stinks at pushing the ball downfield outside the numbers then he's not gonna waste plays trying to do that. Again why did he draft lance? So he could check it down to a RB a million times? OR was it the idea of using the whole field?

I'm not talking about amount of passing attempts. That's not what we're discussing.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Also per Greg Panelli, this is certainly a bottom tier passing game here; even with Brock, in volume and design and priority.

That's a very strange claim.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
That's a very strange claim.

I didn't hear him say that when he was on Locked On…

Originally posted by NCommand:
Jimmy? Jimmy has the 3rd highest air yards ever behind Otto Graham and one other per GP. Also per Greg Panelli, this is certainly a bottom tier passing game here; even with Brock, in volume and design and priority.

https://castbox.fm/x/33gtE

Yes, Kyle would change the whole offense for Trey but clearly, he's not into that anymore. He loves his Cousins, Garoppolo and Brock-style QB's > Griffin and Lance.

And since he runs this b***h, there's no doubt this is how HE rolls after 7 years.

As to Jimmy back in a spread offense, I actually expect him to become more of a check down QB in that system. Here? We had no check downs options here for his career, nor deep threats so he and Kyle lived in the 7 to 15 yard range, live or die. That's why he's #3 all time in that stat.

What does Danny Gray prove to you? He'll be lucky to steal 100 snaps from Aiyuk at the X. Kyle likes versatility and different skill sets for scheming. Nothing more. None of the guys you listed are consistent deep threats here. Not even close.

Kyle is conservative by nature esp. as a HC where he's responsible for an entire team, not just a YOLO OC trying to get a HCing job. Here are additional examples of that:

https://castbox.fm/x/33TOq

You need to get your head out of the clouds and focus more on who Kyle is here after 7 years. This is his team. His system. His philosophy. And his personnel. He's the one constant in a consistent theme despite the players changing.

Yeah Greg is completely wrong and you can tell what site he googled from. His career IAY/PA from per pro-football reference 7.0, which for context would have been good for 24th in the league this yr. The only reason it's even that hight is because of an outlier 2018 of 8.9 IAY/PA over the course of 2 and 1/2 games.

You need to stop listening to others and do some of your own research.

kyle literally said Cousins isn't his ideal QB. IF he really wanted that then McCorkle would be here not Lance. Why do you just breeze by that little fact? He's the guy making the decisions, you've said so yourself. His biggest move since being here was getting a QB that isn't what you think he loves/needs. So how about you stop assuming/try to toss our theories as reality. Acting like kyle is allergic to wanting to use the whole field is ridiculous.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Yeah Greg is completely wrong and you can tell what site he googled from. His career IAY/PA from per pro-football reference 7.0, which for context would have been good for 24th in the league this yr. The only reason it's even that hight is because of an outlier 2018 of 8.9 IAY/PA over the course of 2 and 1/2 games.

You need to stop listening to others and do some of your own research.

kyle literally said Cousins isn't his ideal QB. IF he really wanted that then McCorkle would be here not Lance. Why do you just breeze by that little fact? He's the guy making the decisions, you've said so yourself. His biggest move since being here was getting a QB that isn't what you think he loves/needs. So how about you stop assuming/try to toss our theories as reality. Acting like kyle is allergic to wanting to use the whole field is ridiculous.

The way Kyle described his ideal QB, he pretty much described prime Steve Young.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by genus49:
And i've said for a while and still stand by that, that Trey's issue running isn't speed or agility. I believe you can see a clear difference in how confidently he runs when doing a QB scramble vs a designed run.

I bring up the Seattle game where he came in for Jimmy in the 2nd half. Those were some of his best runs because most of them were off scramble plays vs the runs we saw in Arizona/Houston where most of them were designed runs. I think if he got more experience and got a handle on game speed the designed runs would look better as a result as well.

He'll never be a Justin Fields or Lamar Jackson but he absolutely can hurt teams if they don't account for his legs.

So if I understand you correct, his issue as a runner, is he lacks confidence?

I'd say it's about trusting what he sees as well. He hasn't played a lot of football. The idea that that only affects his ability to decipher a defense when passing is incorrect. It affects him running, too. And also because of the school he came from, those times he looked slow he had yet to adjust to NFL speed. But we've already had this conversation last year and I think you were in it, so not sure why we're repeating this stuff.

I like how he's comfortable doing what Hurts does in Philly in one post. He's not trusting what he sees, hasn't played much ball, and it impacts his running in another post.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I don't know what any of that means….does it say in breaking routes?

You'll notice how well Griffin delivered the ball down the field. He had ratings of 104.9 to the deep left, 87.3 to the deep middle and 140 to the deep right. These were on passes that traveled at least 20 yards down the field.

246 of his 393 attempts were over the middle. One would assume a vast majority of those routes were in breaking in some form.

That chart shows 37 of those passes of 20 yards or more.

Folks are trippin if they think Kyle is all of the sudden gonna drop the high percentage passing plays to throw deep regardless of who the qb is. Why didn't he just call deep shots all the time when Trey was in there before? It's because he's a professional that understands that the real NFL doesn't work like Madden. Go look at the number of pass completions over 40 yards, it's like less than one a game for the top, strong armed qbs. So all of you guys arguing that it's critical to have a quarterback who has a cannon for an arm sound silly. It's far more important to be able to hit the short and intermediate plays that sustain drives. If Trey had been better at doing that, we wouldn't have seen Kyle forced to run qb power over and over that first year with him. Deep passes are literally the least important passes in all of football, they are mostly eye candy to keep defenses honest, and if you connect on one a game, it's a bonus. If you try relying on low percentage plays as a staple in your offense, your offense is going to be terrible. Also, we've already seen what happens when you try to rely on qb power. Cam Newton is 25 pounds heavier than Trey and a better runner and it wore him down. I don't want to see Trey all beat up constantly, it's why his development as a passer has been set back two years. In my opinion we should use him like Mahomes is used, maybe run qb draw every once in awhile when you catch them in man. The threat of the run will be there without all the called run bs that has gotten him hurt at least twice now in four career starts.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Folks are trippin if they think Kyle is all of the sudden gonna drop the high percentage passing plays to throw deep regardless of who the qb is. Why didn't he just call deep shots all the time when Trey was in there before? It's because he's a professional that understands that the real NFL doesn't work like Madden. Go look at the number of pass completions over 40 yards, it's like less than one a game for the top, strong armed qbs. So all of you guys arguing that it's critical to have a quarterback who has a cannon for an arm sound silly. It's far more important to be able to hit the short and intermediate plays that sustain drives. If Trey had been better at doing that, we wouldn't have seen Kyle forced to run qb power over and over that first year with him. Deep passes are literally the least important passes in all of football, they are mostly eye candy to keep defenses honest, and if you connect on one a game, it's a bonus. If you try relying on low percentage plays as a staple in your offense, your offense is going to be terrible. Also, we've already seen what happens when you try to rely on qb power. Cam Newton is 25 pounds heavier than Trey and a better runner and it wore him down. I don't want to see Trey all beat up constantly, it's why his development as a passer has been set back two years. In my opinion we should use him like Mahomes is used, maybe run qb draw every once in awhile when you catch them in man. The threat of the run will be there without all the called run bs that has gotten him hurt at least twice now in four career starts.

💯

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Folks are trippin if they think Kyle is all of the sudden gonna drop the high percentage passing plays to throw deep regardless of who the qb is. Why didn't he just call deep shots all the time when Trey was in there before? It's because he's a professional that understands that the real NFL doesn't work like Madden. Go look at the number of pass completions over 40 yards, it's like less than one a game for the top, strong armed qbs. So all of you guys arguing that it's critical to have a quarterback who has a cannon for an arm sound silly. It's far more important to be able to hit the short and intermediate plays that sustain drives. If Trey had been better at doing that, we wouldn't have seen Kyle forced to run qb power over and over that first year with him. Deep passes are literally the least important passes in all of football, they are mostly eye candy to keep defenses honest, and if you connect on one a game, it's a bonus. If you try relying on low percentage plays as a staple in your offense, your offense is going to be terrible. Also, we've already seen what happens when you try to rely on qb power. Cam Newton is 25 pounds heavier than Trey and a better runner and it wore him down. I don't want to see Trey all beat up constantly, it's why his development as a passer has been set back two years. In my opinion we should use him like Mahomes is used, maybe run qb draw every once in awhile when you catch them in man. The threat of the run will be there without all the called run bs that has gotten him hurt at least twice now in four career starts.

Of course he isn't going to drop all of that. But he does want his guys to take the shots WHEN they are open. You have to show the defense that you can threaten the entire field.

Brock threw more deep not because we called more of it per se, it was him taking advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves. Kyle wants a guy who can do that consistently whether that is Brock or Trey.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Folks are trippin if they think Kyle is all of the sudden gonna drop the high percentage passing plays to throw deep regardless of who the qb is. Why didn't he just call deep shots all the time when Trey was in there before? It's because he's a professional that understands that the real NFL doesn't work like Madden. Go look at the number of pass completions over 40 yards, it's like less than one a game for the top, strong armed qbs. So all of you guys arguing that it's critical to have a quarterback who has a cannon for an arm sound silly. It's far more important to be able to hit the short and intermediate plays that sustain drives. If Trey had been better at doing that, we wouldn't have seen Kyle forced to run qb power over and over that first year with him. Deep passes are literally the least important passes in all of football, they are mostly eye candy to keep defenses honest, and if you connect on one a game, it's a bonus. If you try relying on low percentage plays as a staple in your offense, your offense is going to be terrible. Also, we've already seen what happens when you try to rely on qb power. Cam Newton is 25 pounds heavier than Trey and a better runner and it wore him down. I don't want to see Trey all beat up constantly, it's why his development as a passer has been set back two years. In my opinion we should use him like Mahomes is used, maybe run qb draw every once in awhile when you catch them in man. The threat of the run will be there without all the called run bs that has gotten him hurt at least twice now in four career starts.

I find what's odd about this debate, is the strong arm crowd seemingly couldn't care less about Darnold, who certainly has plus arm talent. You lose the designed run stuff, going from TL to Sam, however, most ppl probably regard that as a plus anyway, like you do.