Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by Koldo:

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by Second2Nunley:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by English:
Sometimes this place reads like a kindergarten. It's the middle of June. Two of our three main quarterbacks have had injury problems and the third needs to settle in. Maybe wait until the preseasons till we throw comments like bust and suck around?

And even then we'll need a weather report. Plus snap count chart to see who was playing with whom.

We've been over this... context only applies to Jimmy, Brock, and Sam.

For Trey its "excusarama"

+ Show all quotes
Picture the opposite. Trey went 8-0 last year winning two play off games before getting injured putting up 32 plus pts per game. Could you imagine the hype? There would be very few doubters in that scenario. I wish we saw flashes like that from Trey, I've wanted him to be that good. Brock is getting the unreasonable doubt here.

But did you not see the 'almost INTs' Purdy threw? He's a weak armed dink and dunker. Can't win games or SB with that. He'll never be a top tier QB.

Or so I've heard…

The best poster on the Webzone (we all know who that is) called him a "glorified Gardner Minshew/Nick Foles"

I think I'd remember if I had said that. I think I said he was a poor man's Mahomes in the 20 yard window (due to his off platform throws, advanced arm angles, agility, and reflexes/improvisation) which seems to be quite the opposite.

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by tankle104:
finally, I'm not the only one who's saying his lack of pass attempts in highschool & college is wild. That matters experience wise when you're this inexperienced. Anyways, I just thought it was funny that I finally saw someone point this out too. Lol

"He played in a run-heavy offense in high school, where he attempted 20 passes in a game just once," Sikkema wrote of Lance. "He then got only one year as a starter at North Dakota State in his entire college career. He backed up Jimmy Garoppolo in 2021, then played just two games as a starter in 2022 before suffering a season-ending ankle injury. There's a ton of promise to him, but we have to see it this summer."

let's hope he has a great camp!

it's mind blowing, I question if they factored it at all into the player evaluation, did they just look at perceived traits, and project him forward based on potential? Would love the tell all book explaining the pick, the thought process, etc.

only reasonable conclusion is that the pick was not made by football coaches for football reasons.... this was an RG3 type of pick and I am certain Shanny was told this is his QB now deal with it make it happen... then Brock happened and bailed him out, so now it is not so imperative to keep forcing this pick along and let nature take it's course

Wrong again.

Shanahan was in the midst of his "positionless offense" kick. He wanted a QB who could run. But he wanted one who prefers staying in the pocket. So they interviewd Jones, Lance and Fields, studied them, with the idea that if Lance or Fields don't have the mental chops, they'd take Jones. Lance impressed in that process, and that was why they ultimately picked him. It's not more complicated than that.

1. Shanahan wanted to expand his offense to include situations where the QB could steal 5 or 6 yards from time to time.
2. He wanted to have play-action off of that.
3. They looked at Lance and Fields, deciding Lance had the better opportunity to eventually correct his weaknesses.
4. Lance satisfied them enough in the interview process that they were comfortable not taking Jones.

That's it. That's why they picked Lance.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by tankle104:
finally, I'm not the only one who's saying his lack of pass attempts in highschool & college is wild. That matters experience wise when you're this inexperienced. Anyways, I just thought it was funny that I finally saw someone point this out too. Lol

"He played in a run-heavy offense in high school, where he attempted 20 passes in a game just once," Sikkema wrote of Lance. "He then got only one year as a starter at North Dakota State in his entire college career. He backed up Jimmy Garoppolo in 2021, then played just two games as a starter in 2022 before suffering a season-ending ankle injury. There's a ton of promise to him, but we have to see it this summer."

let's hope he has a great camp!

+ Show all quotes
it's mind blowing, I question if they factored it at all into the player evaluation, did they just look at perceived traits, and project him forward based on potential? Would love the tell all book explaining the pick, the thought process, etc.

only reasonable conclusion is that the pick was not made by football coaches for football reasons.... this was an RG3 type of pick and I am certain Shanny was told this is his QB now deal with it make it happen... then Brock happened and bailed him out, so now it is not so imperative to keep forcing this pick along and let nature take it's course

Wrong again.

Shanahan was in the midst of his "positionless offense" kick. He wanted a QB who could run. But he wanted one who prefers staying in the pocket. So they interviewd Jones, Lance and Fields, studied them, with the idea that if Lance or Fields don't have the mental chops, they'd take Jones. Lance impressed in that process, and that was why they ultimately picked him. It's not more complicated than that.

1. Shanahan wanted to expand his offense to include situations where the QB could steal 5 or 6 yards from time to time.
2. He wanted to have play-action off of that.
3. They looked at Lance and Fields, deciding Lance had the better opportunity to eventually correct his weaknesses.
4. Lance satisfied them enough in the interview process that they were comfortable not taking Jones.

That's it. That's why they picked Lance.

And they gave up a ton to make this happen. So what you're saying is, high risk/high reward?

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by tankle104:
finally, I'm not the only one who's saying his lack of pass attempts in highschool & college is wild. That matters experience wise when you're this inexperienced. Anyways, I just thought it was funny that I finally saw someone point this out too. Lol

"He played in a run-heavy offense in high school, where he attempted 20 passes in a game just once," Sikkema wrote of Lance. "He then got only one year as a starter at North Dakota State in his entire college career. He backed up Jimmy Garoppolo in 2021, then played just two games as a starter in 2022 before suffering a season-ending ankle injury. There's a ton of promise to him, but we have to see it this summer."

let's hope he has a great camp!

it's mind blowing, I question if they factored it at all into the player evaluation, did they just look at perceived traits, and project him forward based on potential? Would love the tell all book explaining the pick, the thought process, etc.

+ Show all quotes
only reasonable conclusion is that the pick was not made by football coaches for football reasons.... this was an RG3 type of pick and I am certain Shanny was told this is his QB now deal with it make it happen... then Brock happened and bailed him out, so now it is not so imperative to keep forcing this pick along and let nature take it's course

Wrong again.

Shanahan was in the midst of his "positionless offense" kick. He wanted a QB who could run. But he wanted one who prefers staying in the pocket. So they interviewd Jones, Lance and Fields, studied them, with the idea that if Lance or Fields don't have the mental chops, they'd take Jones. Lance impressed in that process, and that was why they ultimately picked him. It's not more complicated than that.

1. Shanahan wanted to expand his offense to include situations where the QB could steal 5 or 6 yards from time to time.
2. He wanted to have play-action off of that.
3. They looked at Lance and Fields, deciding Lance had the better opportunity to eventually correct his weaknesses.
4. Lance satisfied them enough in the interview process that they were comfortable not taking Jones.

That's it. That's why they picked Lance.

And they gave up a ton to make this happen. So what you're saying is, high risk/high reward?

It is, but that's not what I'm talking about and wasn't even mentioned. However it's less of a risk for a team that they already feel is a contender. And drafting a QB early is almost always a high risk, high reward scenario.

But no, that has nothing to do with my post. My post is explaining why they chose Lance. Shanahan wasn't "forced" to pick him. At best, Lynch might have passively aggressively mentioned that he once thought Shanahan should rethink on Mahomes, to try to pull Shanahan to lean towards Lance. But there is absolutely zero evidence of that. It's nothing but blind speculation.

What we know is that Shanahan, not York, no Lynch, not even Jesus Christ and all his apostles, is the one who has final say on the QB on this team. And he picked Lance. I listed what I believe to be the most likely reasons. He may have been "convinced" to pick Lance, but he wasn't forced to.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Credit for what exactly? I said he played well vs HOU. I'm just not blowing smoke like he's the lone QB capable of beating the Houston Texans, who themselves had a rook QB iirc, and a far inferior roster all around. We could sign guys off the street and win that game. Am I wrong?

I believe Houston had the 14th overall pass D (DVOA) So while not top 10. Far from the worst.

the only place on Earth where the 2021 Texans were any good, the TL thread.. what in the world

this is what I am talking about folks, you can say he did fine (even good!) that game.. why on Earth are you blowing smoke like the HOU Texans of that year were a squad? they totally weren't

What's worse pretending Houston is so bad that any QB would've beaten them when they just beat a Justin Herbert led squad the week prior? Or people reminding you that they weren't as awful as you're pretending?

You made the claim that Lance did nothing to help the team when he had his best game as a starter in a must win game against Houston. You're so busy trying to diminish Houston that you can't seem to realize your main point is BS and backed up by hypothetical scenarios you cannot guarantee to be true.

It's ok we have your stance on all of this.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Credit for what exactly? I said he played well vs HOU. I'm just not blowing smoke like he's the lone QB capable of beating the Houston Texans, who themselves had a rook QB iirc, and a far inferior roster all around. We could sign guys off the street and win that game. Am I wrong?

+ Show all quotes
I believe Houston had the 14th overall pass D (DVOA) So while not top 10. Far from the worst.

the only place on Earth where the 2021 Texans were any good, the TL thread.. what in the world

this is what I am talking about folks, you can say he did fine (even good!) that game.. why on Earth are you blowing smoke like the HOU Texans of that year were a squad? they totally weren't

What's worse pretending Houston is so bad that any QB would've beaten them when they just beat a Justin Herbert led squad the week prior? Or people reminding you that they weren't as awful as you're pretending?

You made the claim that Lance did nothing to help the team when he had his best game as a starter in a must win game against Houston. You're so busy trying to diminish Houston that you can't seem to realize your main point is BS and backed up by hypothetical scenarios you cannot guarantee to be true.

It's ok we have your stance on all of this.

It's football opinions, that was legit one of the worst teams in football. This is my opinion. We were one of the best teams in football. They were flat awful imo. I don't have to try and diminish the 2021 Texans, the 2021 Texans did that, I'm just reporting the reality here..

let's enjoy our guys I'm cool with that, we don't need to blow smoke or spin fictions about how one of the worst teams in the sport that year, was actually good.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Oh please. What a load of crap. "An absolutely can't have it type of interception" as if it wasn't just a slightly underthrown pass. We've watched Jimmy throw it directly to linebackers with no other player in sight for years, but somehow this is the one that's unforgivable.

It was a lot more than a slightly underthrown pass. It was a playaction fake he telegraphed so badly that he pulled the defender right into his passing lane. He was staring at the receiver before he completed the fake. Then with the defender clearly in his line of sight and no pressure, he inexplicably decided to attempt the pass anyway. It was failure on multiple levels and it was about as easy a downfield play to execute as we have in our playbook. Just bad execution.

You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Sure. At the same time, we might have had two additional wins with average QB play in the previous games Trey played.

As negative as this sounds, I'm not trying to crush Trey because the level of play we saw should have been expected given his lack of experience and fundamental issues. He's a project. How that helps us win in the short term, when we are primed to do so, is a question that should have been thought about a little more by management. Can't play him and expect offensive success… can't develop him without playing him… can't win *situation. Easy to see going in. As I've said multiple times in these arguments, I'm glad management has apparently realized this and has adjusted their plans going forward. It's not good for Trey as an individual though.

Originally posted by genus49:
You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

There's a post I made during this exchange yesterday. See the bolded. I think what we've seen from Trey is to be expected of any rookie with his experience level and unrefined fundamentals. I won't expect anything else from him until he gets significant playing time… which he likely won't get here because of our team's situation. That's not his fault for the 50,000th time. It's poor management from our team.

As far as the Houston team, you guys are not gaining any traction in your argument that Houston's defense wasn't as bad as people think. Citing a single stat, like DVOA, or referencing a single game against another team (Chargers) does not make a great argument. We have a plethora of statistics, and a full season worth of games to judge Houston's defense… and it was flat out terrible. Pass and run. It's odd that the guys who continually point out Trey's SSS suddenly are willing to use a single game to draw conclusions about a team. It'd be like arguing that The 49ers defense wasn't great because they gave up a bunch of points to the Raiders *and their backup QB making his first start*. Or questioning Brock Purdy's potential because he didn't light up the stat sheet against the the Cowboys and their great defense. Further, the Chargers themselves weren't some elite team. They were inconsistent throughout the year, as they have been for multiple seasons under Staley. And they didn't necessarily lose the game against the Texans because of their offense. They scored 29 points, with a touchdown in garbage time. They had 23 points before that, which was their average for the season. It was not some outlier poor performance from their offense, or a great performance by the Texans defense. The argument otherwise is beyond weak.

As far as Trey's interception, since you can't see it yourself and because I don't have credibility in your eyes, go watch JTO's breakdown of the play. It's not complicated what went wrong, and it was multiple things as I described.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Sure. At the same time, we might have had two additional wins with average QB play in the previous games Trey played.

As negative as this sounds, I'm not trying to crush Trey because the level of play we saw should have been expected given his lack of experience and fundamental issues. He's a project. How that helps us win in the short term, when we are primed to do so, is a question that should have been thought about a little more by management. Can't play him and expect offensive success… can't develop him without playing him… can't win *situation. Easy to see going in. As I've said multiple times in these arguments, I'm glad management has apparently realized this and has adjusted their plans going forward. It's not good for Trey as an individual though.

Originally posted by genus49:
You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

There's a post I made during this exchange yesterday. See the bolded. I think what we've seen from Trey is to be expected of any rookie with his experience level and unrefined fundamentals. I won't expect anything else from him until he gets significant playing time… which he likely won't get here because of our team's situation. That's not his fault for the 50,000th time. It's poor management from our team.

As far as the Houston team, you guys are not gaining any traction in your argument that Houston's defense wasn't as bad as people think. Citing a single stat, like DVOA, or referencing a single game against another team (Chargers) does not make a great argument. We have a plethora of statistics, and a full season worth of games to judge Houston's defense… and it was flat out terrible. Pass and run. It's odd that the guys who continually point out Trey's SSS suddenly are willing to use a single game to draw conclusions about a team. It'd be like arguing that The 49ers defense wasn't great because they gave up a bunch of points to the Raiders *and their backup QB making his first start*. Or questioning Brock Purdy's potential because he didn't light up the stat sheet against the the Cowboys and their great defense. Further, the Chargers themselves weren't some elite team. They were inconsistent throughout the year, as they have been for multiple seasons under Staley. And they didn't necessarily lose the game against the Texans because of their offense. They scored 29 points, with a touchdown in garbage time. They had 23 points before that, which was their average for the season. It was not some outlier poor performance from their offense, or a great performance by the Texans defense. The argument otherwise is beyond weak.

As far as Trey's interception, since you can't see it yourself and because I don't have credibility in your eyes, go watch JTO's breakdown of the play. It's not complicated what went wrong, and it was multiple things as I described.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Credit for what exactly? I said he played well vs HOU. I'm just not blowing smoke like he's the lone QB capable of beating the Houston Texans, who themselves had a rook QB iirc, and a far inferior roster all around. We could sign guys off the street and win that game. Am I wrong?

I believe Houston had the 14th overall pass D (DVOA) So while not top 10. Far from the worst.

+ Show all quotes
the only place on Earth where the 2021 Texans were any good, the TL thread.. what in the world

this is what I am talking about folks, you can say he did fine (even good!) that game.. why on Earth are you blowing smoke like the HOU Texans of that year were a squad? they totally weren't

What's worse pretending Houston is so bad that any QB would've beaten them when they just beat a Justin Herbert led squad the week prior? Or people reminding you that they weren't as awful as you're pretending?

You made the claim that Lance did nothing to help the team when he had his best game as a starter in a must win game against Houston. You're so busy trying to diminish Houston that you can't seem to realize your main point is BS and backed up by hypothetical scenarios you cannot guarantee to be true.

It's ok we have your stance on all of this.

It's football opinions, that was legit one of the worst teams in football. This is my opinion. We were one of the best teams in football. They were flat awful imo. I don't have to try and diminish the 2021 Texans, the 2021 Texans did that, I'm just reporting the reality here..

let's enjoy our guys I'm cool with that, we don't need to blow smoke or spin fictions about how one of the worst teams in the sport that year, was actually good.

Houston wasn't good but they're an NFL team and we've seen this team with or without Trey lose to bad teams we should walk all over and beat teams we had no business of being even in the game with.

That is something you're trying to diminish with the "Sudfeld or anyone could've beaten them"

They beat the Chargers the week prior with an elite QB and they beat the Titans earlier in the year and they were the top seed in the AFC.

it's ok to give Trey the credit for winning that game. I'm not claiming the kid carried the team but assuming anyone can beat them cuz they're the Texans is a stretch.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
There's a post I made during this exchange yesterday. See the bolded. I think what we've seen from Trey is to be expected of any rookie with his experience level and unrefined fundamentals. I won't expect anything else from him until he gets significant playing time… which he likely won't get here because of our team's situation. That's not his fault for the 50,000th time. It's poor management from our team.

As far as the Houston team, you guys are not gaining any traction in your argument that Houston's defense wasn't as bad as people think. Citing a single stat, like DVOA, or referencing a single game against another team (Chargers) does not make a great argument. We have a plethora of statistics, and a full season worth of games to judge Houston's defense… and it was flat out terrible. Pass and run. It's odd that the guys who continually point out Trey's SSS suddenly are willing to use a single game to draw conclusions about a team. It'd be like arguing that The 49ers defense wasn't great because they gave up a bunch of points to the Raiders *and their backup QB making his first start*. Or questioning Brock Purdy's potential because he didn't light up the stat sheet against the the Cowboys and their great defense. Further, the Chargers themselves weren't some elite team. They were inconsistent throughout the year, as they have been for multiple seasons under Staley. And they didn't necessarily lose the game against the Texans because of their offense. They scored 29 points, with a touchdown in garbage time. They had 23 points before that, which was their average for the season. It was not some outlier poor performance from their offense, or a great performance by the Texans defense. The argument otherwise is beyond weak.

As far as Trey's interception, since you can't see it yourself and because I don't have credibility in your eyes, go watch JTO's breakdown of the play. It's not complicated what went wrong, and it was multiple things as I described.

I don't need to prop up Houston to know any given Sunday is a real thing in the NfL. See my post above.

If you have proper expectations on Trey then playing Houston shouldn't be a diminishing factor. It happens to be the one game he played with Kittle on the field and a game where the playcalling was more well rounded.

The points in the first half weren't coming but there were plenty of nice plays made by Trey in the first half including some of his best throws in the last drive of the half. The pick is a major lesson learned and you could see him actually adjust things during the game and correct mistakes from earlier in the game.

This is simply another example of why evaluating Trey right now is dumb either direction. Too many unknowns and lack of reps.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Sure. At the same time, we might have had two additional wins with average QB play in the previous games Trey played.

As negative as this sounds, I'm not trying to crush Trey because the level of play we saw should have been expected given his lack of experience and fundamental issues. He's a project. How that helps us win in the short term, when we are primed to do so, is a question that should have been thought about a little more by management. Can't play him and expect offensive success… can't develop him without playing him… can't win *situation. Easy to see going in. As I've said multiple times in these arguments, I'm glad management has apparently realized this and has adjusted their plans going forward. It's not good for Trey as an individual though.

Originally posted by genus49:
You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

There's a post I made during this exchange yesterday. See the bolded. I think what we've seen from Trey is to be expected of any rookie with his experience level and unrefined fundamentals. I won't expect anything else from him until he gets significant playing time… which he likely won't get here because of our team's situation. That's not his fault for the 50,000th time. It's poor management from our team.

As far as the Houston team, you guys are not gaining any traction in your argument that Houston's defense wasn't as bad as people think. Citing a single stat, like DVOA, or referencing a single game against another team (Chargers) does not make a great argument. We have a plethora of statistics, and a full season worth of games to judge Houston's defense… and it was flat out terrible. Pass and run. It's odd that the guys who continually point out Trey's SSS suddenly are willing to use a single game to draw conclusions about a team. It'd be like arguing that The 49ers defense wasn't great because they gave up a bunch of points to the Raiders *and their backup QB making his first start*. Or questioning Brock Purdy's potential because he didn't light up the stat sheet against the the Cowboys and their great defense. Further, the Chargers themselves weren't some elite team. They were inconsistent throughout the year, as they have been for multiple seasons under Staley. And they didn't necessarily lose the game against the Texans because of their offense. They scored 29 points, with a touchdown in garbage time. They had 23 points before that, which was their average for the season. It was not some outlier poor performance from their offense, or a great performance by the Texans defense. The argument otherwise is beyond weak.

As far as Trey's interception, since you can't see it yourself and because I don't have credibility in your eyes, go watch JTO's breakdown of the play. It's not complicated what went wrong, and it was multiple things as I described.

Justin Herbert was a Pro Bowl QB that year and is a top 5 QB. And the Chargers beat 5 playoff teams that year KC, LVR, PHI, PIT, and CIN. They were a playoff caliber team that year.

Also Houston's defense had 17 picks that year compared to the Niners' 9.

The Niners are obviously the better team, but it's "Any given Sunday." There's no gimme wins in the league regardless of the disparity between two team's talent and records.

That was a quality team win and a good performance by Lance.

As for the int, he nailed a similar throw during his next start.

Great 49ers gift ideas ⇨
Niners are in good hands at QB with either Purdy, Lance or Darnold.

Originally posted by SinceXVI:
Justin Herbert was a Pro Bowl QB that year and is a top 5 QB. And the Chargers beat 5 playoff teams that year KC, LVR, PHI, PIT, and CIN. They were a playoff caliber team that year.

Also Houston's defense had 17 picks that year compared to the Niners' 9.

The Niners are obviously the better team, but it's "Any given Sunday." There's no gimme wins in the league regardless of the disparity between two team's talent and records.

That was a quality team win and a good performance by Lance.

As for the int, he nailed a similar throw during his next start.

Trey Lance ➡️ Ray-Ray McCloud. Trey fits it in perfectly over the outstretched Roquan Smith for the 20-yard completion. 🎯 #49ers pic.twitter.com/JObg4Recvw

— Coach Yac 🗣 (@Coach_Yac) September 12, 2022

Niners are in good hands at QB with either Purdy, Lance or Darnold.

I don't disagree with the general idea behind 'Any Given Sunday' and no games are gimmies etc. That's how a better team like the Chargers can lose a game they shouldn't to the Texans. You don't draw definitive conclusions after a single game and that's exactly what people are doing by citing the Chargers/ Texans game as evidence that the Texans were better than what they were.

What I do disagree with is that the 49ers offense played well that game, or that the Texans presented a difficult challenge defensively. The Texans weren't good that day defensively, just as they weren't the entire season. We were bad offensively for the bulk of the game. Still won mainly because our defense completely controlled the game and our offense made a few nice plays by the end. It was still a subpar performance, and Trey did not play well regardless of the win. Again, expecting this guy to play well right away given his resume is absurd… and he hasn't.

The entire argument that people are downplaying the Texans in an attempt to minimize Trey's success is faulty, because he wasn't very successful in that game. It was the same level of performance we've seen in all his starts, with a big scoring play mixed in and a nice drive or two. His QBR was in the 30's, like every other performance. His PFF grade was lower in that game than against the more difficult opponent in Arizona. I don't think anyone should hang on these stats… but they point you in a direction.

Originally posted by genus49:
You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

So Lance is getting credit for completing passes on 3rd down short of the sticks. Did you have that same energy fir Jimmy?

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by genus49:
You had this type of energy for Jimmy G as well right?

Cuz you're holding a 21 year old rookie starting his 2nd and pretty critical game to a pretty high standard. His first home game start, must win game for the team to make the playoffs. Seems like diminishing Houston is an easy thing to do...someone tell the Chargers.

But this whole idea that Lance was crap in the first half is way over blown. The guy had 6 passes thrown through the first 28 minutes in the game. Had a terrific drive to close out the half and should've had a TD if Houston's DB didn't pin back Aiyuk's hand(that's a PI btw refs)

Just as a reminder here are the 49er 3rd/4th downs in the first half and what Trey did during each one of them.
3rd and 10 run short of the sticks
3rd and 1 - QB sneak for 1st down
3rd and 2 - QB run for 1 yard, 4th and 1 run by Mitchell stopped for -3 yard loss
3rd and 19 - pass to Jennings for 12 yards
pick
3rd and 9 - pass to Juice for 6 yards

The worst part of Trey's play in the first half was the pick, which we've talked about over and over. Paint it however poorly you want but fact is if he puts more air on the ball it's a huge play to Kittle. He'll learn from it. Peyton Manning talked about all the experience he had leading the league in picks as a rookie but SmokeyJoe on Webzone thinks Lance just sent a telegraph to the DB on a play destined to fail because of Trey's eyes.

Let's not forget how many people play the "he got it done in the end" when it comes to other QBs but Lance in his 2nd NFL start somehow gets torn apart because of how he played in the first half(when he was barely even asked to throw the ball) and we ignore all the good plays he put out there.

This is why a lot of us are frustrated with the narrative with Trey. I understand what the team gave up for him but it shouldn't make people's expectations of him to be completely unrealistic. Many here who are the most vocal in diminishing what Trey has done so far are quick to make excuse after excuse for veteran QBs who shall remain nameless who make similar mistakes or worse well into their NFL career.

So Lance is getting credit for completing passes on 3rd down short of the sticks. Did you have that same energy fir Jimmy?

I was simply showing Lance wasn't hurting the team like some insinuated in that first…but yes I had the same energy for Jimmy. Jimmy's play on 3rd down was easily one of his top attributes.

But at the same time my expectations for a 21 year old rookie aren't the same as they would be for a 8/9 year vet. They shouldn't be the same for you either.