Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
He should have been the starter half way through the 2021 season. To me, that is where SF made a mistake.

Did you think he was a better player than Jimmy G or did you think it was worthwhile to sacrifice the season for his development?

I dont think at the start of the 2021 season that Trey was better or even as good as Jimmy. But I do believe that if he would have gotten to play the whole season, by playoff time, he would have at least been as good as Jimmy. Then again, I dont think Jimmy is very good.

I never subscribed to the idea that playing Trey meant we would be "sacrificing the season."

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:
Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence.

What you're trying to accuse me of is 'motivated reasoning' which is using bias to construct and evaluate arguments to support a preferred conclusion.

The media driven narrative of Purdy being the week 1 starter can be considered magical thinking as it ignores the possibility of a setback or delay in Purdy's recovery, as well as ignores that Shanahan will be making the decision, not Kittle, Lynch, pundits, or fans.

First off, BP as QB1, isn't media driven. It's reality driven if you followed 2022 as we all did. It's also KS and JLs outright statement, that's he's earned it.

Everything I have seen, is QB1, with the if healthy caveat. I would, and have been, going a step further, and saying not only if healthy, but he's got to have enough time being healthy, to work with the ones, and be in game shape. Being able to practice in mid Aug is a tight turnaround for an early Sept week 1. That's about three weeks to cram in an offseason that most other QBs have months to prep for. Trust me, I get the concern. I hear he is trending toward QB1 week 1, based on his timeline. I would say it's a 50/50, which is better than I would have said, a month or two ago.

I hear you. I'm just pushing back against the false narrative that Lance has no chance at starting, that he's buried at QB3 no matter what he does.

We all know that nothing is set in stone, especially when it comes to our QBs' health.

Just because Lance may get another chance to start, it doesn't mean that he won't get injured or play himself out of the job.

But the notion that he's some raw prospect not capable of leading this team is false given that he's been in this system 3 years now and has shown that he can play well on this level.

"Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence"

Please explain the 'placebo effect'.

Sure, how about I explain the 'observer effect' of the double-slit experiment while I'm at it?

Bro, you 're the one that posted the quote in question. I mentioned the placebo effect because it is in direct opposition to what you posted. Try to stay on topic.

I'm here to talk about football not metaphysics.

But in regards to the 'placebo effect,' that applies to the perception of pain or an ailment, it's not a cure for an illness or disease.

It does not prove 'magical thinking.'

I will not further discuss 'magical thinking' as that's a slippery slope to offending people's religious faiths and belief systems.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I dont think at the start of the 2021 season that Trey was better or even as good as Jimmy. But I do believe that if he would have gotten to play the whole season, by playoff time, he would have at least been as good as Jimmy. Then again, I dont think Jimmy is very good.

I never subscribed to the idea that playing Trey meant we would be "sacrificing the season."

Yea I should have used 'potentially sacrificing the season' for clarity, but the thing is you mentioned starting him halfway through the season. Halfway through the season the team was 3-5 and had nearly no margin for error. If you're playing a QB who isn't as good as your starter at that point, I think it's reasonable to say you're willing to sacrifice the season. It's certainly a willingness to get worse overall.

I also don't think Jimmy is very good but I still believe he's a lot better than what we've seen from Trey. Maybe Trey improves over a half season or a season's worth of games. Who knows. I do think it makes sense to argue he should have played right away given playing time is what he needs the most. I don't agree with the argument though because I can't prioritize his development over the team's readiness to win the Super Bowl.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I dont think at the start of the 2021 season that Trey was better or even as good as Jimmy. But I do believe that if he would have gotten to play the whole season, by playoff time, he would have at least been as good as Jimmy. Then again, I dont think Jimmy is very good.

I never subscribed to the idea that playing Trey meant we would be "sacrificing the season."

Yea I should have used 'potentially sacrificing the season' for clarity, but the thing is you mentioned starting him halfway through the season. Halfway through the season the team was 3-5 and had nearly no margin for error. If you're playing a QB who isn't as good as your starter at that point, I think it's reasonable to say you're willing to sacrifice the season. It's certainly a willingness to get worse overall.

I also don't think Jimmy is very good but I still believe he's a lot better than what we've seen from Trey. Maybe Trey improves over a half season or a season's worth of games. Who knows. I do think it makes sense to argue he should have played right away given playing time is what he needs the most. I don't agree with the argument though because I can't prioritize his development over the team's readiness to win the Super Bowl.

On the taking over in 2021, how practical is that idea, given that he got knocked around vs ARZ. Recall after ARZ, he didn't dress the following game, even after a bye iirc. He was injured. This is on top of the finger, which was also injured, and presumably gave him grief all 2021. The whole issue with the finger, is it was jacked, and impacted his delivery is my understanding. Do we really want him out there, live fire reps, with different mechanics to accommodate the finger? Doesn't that just reinforce wrong mechanics? Shouldn't he have just gotten the finger 100% before action? What did we do to deserve getting a less durable QB than JG, to replace JG? Who here offended the Fball Gods?

I have many questions

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
On the taking over in 2021, how practical is that idea, given that he got knocked around vs ARZ. Recall after ARZ, he didn't dress the following game, even after a bye iirc. He was injured. This is on top of the finger, which was also injured, and presumably gave him grief all 2021. The whole issue with the finger, is it was jacked, and impacted his delivery is my understanding. Do we really want him out there, live fire reps, with different mechanics to accommodate the finger? Doesn't that just reinforce wrong mechanics? Shouldn't he have just gotten the finger 100% before action? What did we do to deserve getting a less durable QB than JG, to replace JG? Who here offended the Fball Gods?

I have many questions

The vocal part of the fanbase, at least in terms of social media, was absolutely insane prior to the 21 draft. Really haven't seen anything like it.

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:
Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence.

What you're trying to accuse me of is 'motivated reasoning' which is using bias to construct and evaluate arguments to support a preferred conclusion.

The media driven narrative of Purdy being the week 1 starter can be considered magical thinking as it ignores the possibility of a setback or delay in Purdy's recovery, as well as ignores that Shanahan will be making the decision, not Kittle, Lynch, pundits, or fans.

First off, BP as QB1, isn't media driven. It's reality driven if you followed 2022 as we all did. It's also KS and JLs outright statement, that's he's earned it.

Everything I have seen, is QB1, with the if healthy caveat. I would, and have been, going a step further, and saying not only if healthy, but he's got to have enough time being healthy, to work with the ones, and be in game shape. Being able to practice in mid Aug is a tight turnaround for an early Sept week 1. That's about three weeks to cram in an offseason that most other QBs have months to prep for. Trust me, I get the concern. I hear he is trending toward QB1 week 1, based on his timeline. I would say it's a 50/50, which is better than I would have said, a month or two ago.

I hear you. I'm just pushing back against the false narrative that Lance has no chance at starting, that he's buried at QB3 no matter what he does.

We all know that nothing is set in stone, especially when it comes to our QBs' health.

Just because Lance may get another chance to start, it doesn't mean that he won't get injured or play himself out of the job.

But the notion that he's some raw prospect not capable of leading this team is false given that he's been in this system 3 years now and has shown that he can play well on this level.

"Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence"

Please explain the 'placebo effect'.

Sure, how about I explain the 'observer effect' of the double-slit experiment while I'm at it?

Bro, you 're the one that posted the quote in question. I mentioned the placebo effect because it is in direct opposition to what you posted. Try to stay on topic.

I'm here to talk about football not metaphysics.

But in regards to the 'placebo effect,' that applies to the perception of pain or an ailment, it's not a cure for an illness or disease.

It does not prove 'magical thinking.'

I will not further discuss 'magical thinking' as that's a slippery slope to offending people's religious faiths and belief systems.

For the record, the placebo effect does indeed refer to documented physical changes in the body's response all sorts of ailments. Using terms like 'magical thinking' only serve to shut down any understanding of the subject. It is an anti intelligence position taken in an attempt to protect an established position, without concern for viability of said position.
"Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence" This is you bringing metaphysics into the conversation.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I dont think at the start of the 2021 season that Trey was better or even as good as Jimmy. But I do believe that if he would have gotten to play the whole season, by playoff time, he would have at least been as good as Jimmy. Then again, I dont think Jimmy is very good.

I never subscribed to the idea that playing Trey meant we would be "sacrificing the season."

Yea I should have used 'potentially sacrificing the season' for clarity, but the thing is you mentioned starting him halfway through the season. Halfway through the season the team was 3-5 and had nearly no margin for error. If you're playing a QB who isn't as good as your starter at that point, I think it's reasonable to say you're willing to sacrifice the season. It's certainly a willingness to get worse overall.

I also don't think Jimmy is very good but I still believe he's a lot better than what we've seen from Trey. Maybe Trey improves over a half season or a season's worth of games. Who knows. I do think it makes sense to argue he should have played right away given playing time is what he needs the most. I don't agree with the argument though because I can't prioritize his development over the team's readiness to win the Super Bowl.

On the taking over in 2021, how practical is that idea, given that he got knocked around vs ARZ. Recall after ARZ, he didn't dress the following game, even after a bye iirc. He was injured. This is on top of the finger, which was also injured, and presumably gave him grief all 2021. The whole issue with the finger, is it was jacked, and impacted his delivery is my understanding. Do we really want him out there, live fire reps, with different mechanics to accommodate the finger? Doesn't that just reinforce wrong mechanics? Shouldn't he have just gotten the finger 100% before action? What did we do to deserve getting a less durable QB than JG, to replace JG? Who here offended the Fball Gods?

I have many questions

I don't think Lance has ever been remotely close to as good as jimmy in regards to overall QB play, including leadership etc.

idk if Lance would of gotten as good as jimmy because Jimmy was a damn good QB. He wasn't a scrub. He wasn't what we hoped he would be but he was in the top 12 QBs.

Lance hasn't been healthy for a single regular season game, so I doubt he would of gotten better as the season went on. Not because he can't get better, but he was injured and it would of compounded. The experience would of probably benefited him down the road, IMO, but I think lances play has been pretty bad when he's the starter. So when I project him over a season, I'm not expecting much.

i don't want this to come off as some bashing post, I'm just giving my honest take on how I think it would of played out. I think if we played a good team, he would of been a disaster. He probably could continue to best the bad teams if our defense continued playing at a high level.

im glad Lance is finally healthy and working on the things that he is. I'm hoping he looks good and confident heading into camp and just let's loose. I'd really like to see him make a big stride and give Brock some competition.

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SinceXVI:
Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence.

What you're trying to accuse me of is 'motivated reasoning' which is using bias to construct and evaluate arguments to support a preferred conclusion.

The media driven narrative of Purdy being the week 1 starter can be considered magical thinking as it ignores the possibility of a setback or delay in Purdy's recovery, as well as ignores that Shanahan will be making the decision, not Kittle, Lynch, pundits, or fans.

First off, BP as QB1, isn't media driven. It's reality driven if you followed 2022 as we all did. It's also KS and JLs outright statement, that's he's earned it.

Everything I have seen, is QB1, with the if healthy caveat. I would, and have been, going a step further, and saying not only if healthy, but he's got to have enough time being healthy, to work with the ones, and be in game shape. Being able to practice in mid Aug is a tight turnaround for an early Sept week 1. That's about three weeks to cram in an offseason that most other QBs have months to prep for. Trust me, I get the concern. I hear he is trending toward QB1 week 1, based on his timeline. I would say it's a 50/50, which is better than I would have said, a month or two ago.

I hear you. I'm just pushing back against the false narrative that Lance has no chance at starting, that he's buried at QB3 no matter what he does.

We all know that nothing is set in stone, especially when it comes to our QBs' health.

Just because Lance may get another chance to start, it doesn't mean that he won't get injured or play himself out of the job.

But the notion that he's some raw prospect not capable of leading this team is false given that he's been in this system 3 years now and has shown that he can play well on this level.

"Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence"

Please explain the 'placebo effect'.

Sure, how about I explain the 'observer effect' of the double-slit experiment while I'm at it?

Bro, you 're the one that posted the quote in question. I mentioned the placebo effect because it is in direct opposition to what you posted. Try to stay on topic.

I'm here to talk about football not metaphysics.

But in regards to the 'placebo effect,' that applies to the perception of pain or an ailment, it's not a cure for an illness or disease.

It does not prove 'magical thinking.'

I will not further discuss 'magical thinking' as that's a slippery slope to offending people's religious faiths and belief systems.

For the record, the placebo effect does indeed refer to documented physical changes in the body's response all sorts of ailments. Using terms like 'magical thinking' only serve to shut down any understanding of the subject. It is an anti intelligence position taken in an attempt to protect an established position, without concern for viability of said position.
"Magical thinking is this when a person believes thoughts, specific words, emotions or rituals can influence the external world, an example is the toxic positivity myth of ''The Secret' which believes in thinking good outcomes into existence" This is you bringing metaphysics into the conversation.

Did you not read that I'm here to only discuss football?!

This is the second time you've try to attack me personally, with the 1st time you having an embarrassing meltdown.

For the record, I did not bring up the term "magical thinking" as it's a loaded term, I was responding to someone else's post accusing me as such, I simply clarified its definition as it was being misapplied.

But somehow you missed that fact.

Go ahead and have the last word, I'm putting you on block.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
I've said this before and I think it still.stands.

People like the possibility of Trey could be. I like the possibility of what Trey.could be. But the the fact is up to this point it is all he is. A possibility. Posters are acting like he is great simply because of where he was drafted and his athleticism. The problem is that there have been a lot of guys who haven't made it with his skill set. He's got to put it together this year or he will be labeled a bust. There's no denying it.

His athleticism isn't really that impressive... he isn't a great runner, he hasn't shown good escapabiility in the pocket, he hasn't shown the ability to extend plays... so far his athleticism is average by NFL standards.

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
I've said this before and I think it still.stands.

People like the possibility of Trey could be. I like the possibility of what Trey.could be. But the the fact is up to this point it is all he is. A possibility. Posters are acting like he is great simply because of where he was drafted and his athleticism. The problem is that there have been a lot of guys who haven't made it with his skill set. He's got to put it together this year or he will be labeled a bust. There's no denying it.

His athleticism isn't really that impressive... he isn't a great runner, he hasn't shown good escapabiility in the pocket, he hasn't shown the ability to extend plays... so far his athleticism is average by NFL standards.

I wouldn't say it's average, I'd say it's above average, but I don't think it falls in the category of special or game changing. I think The issue with his athleticism is it's best suited to plow through people but that's not good in the nfl or for his health.

i also think Kyle needs to stop calling so many designed runs with him and let them either be RPO or play action, then he can make a choice there. He seemed to do best when the play broke down and he ran VS the deigned runs.

ive said it before - I think running with your qb consistently is a losing strategy over the course of a season. I prefer they have enough athleticism so when they scramble around, a skill player can get open for a pass or enough to scramble for a first down here and there. Essentially what brock did, that's how I like to see a QB use their athleticism. Lance could do some of that but he didn't seem to have the same quickness and agility that Brock displayed. Idk if it was lances injury or kyles trust in his passing ability, but I hope Kyle changes up his play calling if Lance plays again.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Did you think he was a better player than Jimmy G or did you think it was worthwhile to sacrifice the season for his development?

Would've been ideal to develop him since they didn't end up winning the SB in 21. They lost to the Rams whom they've owned for 7 years.

Originally posted by eric_anthony:
Would've been ideal to develop him since they didn't end up winning the SB in 21. They lost to the Rams whom they've owned for 7 years.

At the time of the decision, they don't have the advantage of knowing the result of one of the options.

You can't win on the biggest stages in the game if you aren't playing in them. There are other factors to consider besides the finishing spot of the team as well. Winning and losing, and the work that goes in in the process, have real effects on the team.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by eric_anthony:
Would've been ideal to develop him since they didn't end up winning the SB in 21. They lost to the Rams whom they've owned for 7 years.

At the time of the decision, they don't have the advantage of knowing the result of one of the options.

You can't win on the biggest stages in the game if you aren't playing in them. There are other factors to consider besides the finishing spot of the team as well. Winning and losing, and the work that goes in in the process, have real effects on the team.

Right, hindsight is always 2020. I still think starting Lance wasn't the right decision. He was still injured, so it isn't like you could expect much from him. He also isn't better than jimmy.

i think it's funny how Lance gets a pass because he's been injured his entire career but no one gives jimmy slack for playing through a separated throwing shoulder and torn ligament in thumb (throwing hand) in those playoffs. I actually thought he played well considering how injured he was - our o line was getting dominated that game.

Injuries definitely play a factor in performance but jimmy was tough and played well through a lot of tough injuries.

Originally posted by tankle104:
I don't think Lance has ever been remotely close to as good as jimmy in regards to overall QB play, including leadership etc.

idk if Lance would of gotten as good as jimmy because Jimmy was a damn good QB. He wasn't a scrub. He wasn't what we hoped he would be but he was in the top 12 QBs.

Lance hasn't been healthy for a single regular season game, so I doubt he would of gotten better as the season went on. Not because he can't get better, but he was injured and it would of compounded. The experience would of probably benefited him down the road, IMO, but I think lances play has been pretty bad when he's the starter. So when I project him over a season, I'm not expecting much.

i don't want this to come off as some bashing post, I'm just giving my honest take on how I think it would of played out. I think if we played a good team, he would of been a disaster. He probably could continue to best the bad teams if our defense continued playing at a high level.

im glad Lance is finally healthy and working on the things that he is. I'm hoping he looks good and confident heading into camp and just let's loose. I'd really like to see him make a big stride and give Brock some competition.

Jimmy was not very good in 2021 though. Watch the Falcons or Titans game. Hell watch the 1st half vs the Rams. What Trey did vs Houston is on par with what Jimmy was doing against everyone but Jacksonville in the 2nd half of the year. It was the Deebo show for the most part.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Jimmy was not very good in 2021 though. Watch the Falcons or Titans game. Hell watch the 1st half vs the Rams. What Trey did vs Houston is on par with what Jimmy was doing against everyone but Jacksonville in the 2nd half of the year. It was the Deebo show for the most part.

I think he was pretty much the same Jimmy G we've seen the last three seasons. Probably have better production, like last season, if CMC was in the mix in '21. What he is as a player is pretty well established and he's been consistent in that, bad and good.