Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by boast:

Originally posted by Giedi:
That 20 million cap hit is negotiable as was Jimmy's last year with the 49ers. That 5th year option, should Kyle exercise it, does in a sense lock Trey with the 49ers, and that option can be renegotiated from a position of strength by Kyle if Trey's not progressed to where he's NOT getting offers from other teams commensurate with what Kyle can give him as QB2/QB3 for the 49ers.

you keep posting this but it isnt true. so let me post it again...

the 5th year option is A NON-NEGOTIABLE FIXED AMOUNT.



NFL.com

Yeah, it can't be renegotiated. It would have to be declined and then the team can negotiate an extension to his rookie scale contract (which would be only four years at that point). So the team has control over his fifth year, if they choose to execute it, but has to pay him a ton.

if they choose to decline it, they have to negotiate with Trey on an extension. So it doesn't guarantee he would want to.

Green Bay did that this year with Jordan love. Declined his fifth year option but negotiated a one year extension to his rookie contract (replacing what would of been the fifth year). He's the starter though so it makes more sense for him, I doubt Lance would want to do that unless his agent tells him that it's the best financial offer he will get.

Exactly. Everything is negotiable in the NFL, even the salary cap. Example, See all the players traded for their cap space etc.. You just have to decline the 5th option with the contingency that Kyle and Trey can work out a deal acceptable to both and work out the deal prior to the option lapsing. Simple.

Yeah, I think boast was just saying that you can't renegotiate the actual fifth year option. We would have to terminate it first and start from scratch on an extension.

if that happens, I'd imagine it's something similar to what Jordan love got - low base pay but lots of incentives built in. Essentially what sam darnold signed with us.

The 5th year option is Kyles leverage against Trey leaving for other pastures, so to speak. Again it depends on Treys progress this year and next, but by having a deal in place prior to the 5th year option lapsing, it is still a renegotiation of the 5th year option. Options are ether exercised or not - at the control of the option holder - in this case Kyle is the option holder.

What leverage are you talking about? The way it is right now, if we exercise the 5th year option, we would way over pay Trey $20M. Trey may not mind putting the $20M in his pocket.

When a call option is out of money, it has no intrinsic value. Essentially it is worthless.

Trey will have to do a ton this season for the call option to have any intrinsic value.

Assuming Trey's option is 20 million and Brock salary is 1 million, that's 21 million for a franchise QB and a stud backup with two more years remaining. Jimmy alone is costing the Bottom feeing raiders 23 million. Again the value of the option is in the mind of the option holder - not you.

Guys it's not possible. We don't have a spare $20M+ in 2025 for a backup player . A lot of our contracts are ballooning over the next 2-3 years. We are already over next year.

i bet that's why Bosa's contract is taking so long, it's all about the structuring because a couple million is a lot to us right now, we are cash strapped.

need to redo a bunch of contracts just to be under the cap next year.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
What I find incredibly funny is that the later we got into last offseason/preseason, you and others used that as one of the excuses why Jimmy had zero trade market. "QB rooms are set now" and "teams want their QB (especially a new QB) in the system all offseason/training camp" were repeated ad nauseam. Now because its Trey Lance, none of those excuses matter. Funny how that works.

If Trey is going to be traded now to another team, he will likely be in the same situation he is there that he is here. How is that "doing right by the player?" Sorry, but being a QB2 in a different system is no more of a "gameday role" than him being the QB2/3 with us.

It's the distinction of QB1 v backup. Taking a flyer on a backup is fine in August. Detroit just did it a few days ago. Waiting til Aug to acquire your QB1 is more an issue. That's fairly obvious in my book. Also, again, big distinction, on QB2 vs QB3. QB2 means he gets to be active on gameday, play in TL packages, and he will get more reps all season. QB3 is inactive and he just sits on the bench, break in case of emergency.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I don't understand why some are so quick to say Trey is a bust. They seem to dismiss his extreme lack of playing time and jump right to he can't play. When JG came here, everyone kept saying he'll get better. He needs more experience in ths offense. When he got hurt, they were always willing to give him time to get back in the groove because he was rusty. But they expect Trey to be good right now with no experience.

Trey isn't just inexperienced. He's the least experienced QB the Niners have ever drafted. In any round. You can criticize Kyle and John for taking a chance on him but they couldn't have predicted the injuries that messed up their development plan. They now have a guy that they invested a lot in but is almost like a rookie. In some ways he's worse than rookie since it's been so long since he had any extended playing time. It's not like Purdy who started 4 years and played all those games.

That sounds like a bit of revisionist history if you ask me. Jimmy won his first five starts with nothing but a crash course in Kyle's system. Then he got hurt, after kind of a rough start, in what, his 3rd game of the following season. I'm not sure it was a question of him "getting better". The rap on Jimmy from those whose life seemed to be dedicated to pushing it, was that there were certain things he didn't do well in their opinion, like throwing the deep ball and a penchant for throwing kind of head scratching picks, and they were ALWAYS pounding him on that after the Super Bowl. Other than that, I believe he was usually in the top five in terms of efficiency during those years he was healthy enough to get through a season. I don't think the comparison you are trying to make to Lance is very accurate.

I don't know how many games Jimmy started in college but, like Lance, he pretty much sat behind Brady his first three years in the league and only had a couple of starts, which means most of his reps came during practice and he didn't do too bad when he finally got his chance. This is Lance's third training camp and, according to some people, he is still only marginally better than he was in his first camp. Obviously losing a year to injury didn't help him any, and that was a tough break for him.

There seems to be a lot of legitimate debate on how bad he actually played against the Raiders but the one consistent take-away seems to be his unwillingness to let the ball go when the throw was open. While Mike Lombardi used a rather unfortunate metaphor to try and explain it, I think there is some truth to the idea that the kind of instincts you need to play the position at a high level are not always things you can learn. You either have them or you don't. Lance's play against the Raiders seems like it was full of "teachable moments", the question now is what will he learn from it. Time will tell I guess.

Originally posted by 49ers81:
I keep going back to one thought. As far as I know, Darnold and Allen only signed one-year deals, which means we are still going to need QB's next year. Does Darnold want to stay on as a back-up, or will he be looking to start again somewhere, depending on how the season evolves of course. And what about Allen, I doubt he's considered starting material in this league, but he may have some options on where else he might want to go as a back-up. Lance is still under contract for two more years. Assuming they don't pick up his 5h year option, why not keep him around and see what he might turn into. Given our injury history at the position, I am all for keeping as many QB's as possible.

I made this comment multiple times, but not surprisingly, it was ignored by the posters who want to trade Trey.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
I keep going back to one thought. As far as I know, Darnold and Allen only signed one-year deals, which means we are still going to need QB's next year. Does Darnold want to stay on as a back-up, or will he be looking to start again somewhere, depending on how the season evolves of course. And what about Allen, I doubt he's considered starting material in this league, but he may have some options on where else he might want to go as a back-up. Lance is still under contract for two more years. Assuming they don't pick up his 5h year option, why not keep him around and see what he might turn into. Given our injury history at the position, I am all for keeping as many QB's as possible.

I made this comment multiple times, but not surprisingly, it was ignored by the posters who want to trade Trey.

We got Darnold and Allen this year, fairly easily, with little investment. They both look to be pretty good backups. If we like them we can offer extensions for future. I am sure there are other backups that will be avail also, and the way we have built this with our OL, and skill guys plus KS, it's very QB friendly. They would want to come here, I imagine. I'm not sweating who the 2024 backups are.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
I keep going back to one thought. As far as I know, Darnold and Allen only signed one-year deals, which means we are still going to need QB's next year. Does Darnold want to stay on as a back-up, or will he be looking to start again somewhere, depending on how the season evolves of course. And what about Allen, I doubt he's considered starting material in this league, but he may have some options on where else he might want to go as a back-up. Lance is still under contract for two more years. Assuming they don't pick up his 5h year option, why not keep him around and see what he might turn into. Given our injury history at the position, I am all for keeping as many QB's as possible.

I made this comment multiple times, but not surprisingly, it was ignored by the posters who want to trade Trey.

We got Darnold and Allen this year, fairly easily, with little investment. They both look to be pretty good backups. If we like them we can offer extensions for future. I am sure there are other backups that will be avail also, and the way we have built this with our OL, and skill guys plus KS, it's very QB friendly. They would want to come here, I imagine. I'm not sweating who the 2024 backups are.

Exactly. I find it odd that some people seemed very concerned about 2024 backup QB.

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by Shemp:

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Interesting take from Steve Young. He doesn't think Trey is slow mentally or confused but he's thinking too much trying to be perfect. Certainly possible.

Trey seems capable of making some plays out there, but he has to just settle down and run the offense. He's overwhelmed, that's very clear. The reason he's overwhelmed could be many different reasons.

Everything we've heard says he knows the offense super well, so why didn't he execute it properly most of Sunday?

He wasn't trusting his reads. Why? If they're processing fine, what would make a guy hesitate? If you look at where Trey was looking, it wasn't that he couldn't progress through his options, he just wouldn't pull the trigger and then half the time panicked or was late on throw to the outlet or third read.

It shows when he is in the pocket... it's not off instincts like when he first got in the league where he just ran out of there.... you see him try to do everything that he trained over the past few years. Protecting the ball with both hands while he hitches forward or around chaos, still looking down field. Now usually this is a good thing... he has to keep with this until it becomes natural.

Another example is when he leaves the pocket, where some think his athleticism is overrated....where as, imo, it's just because he's trying to be too perfect looking downfield instead of committing 100% to running forward. He's shown his quickness already.. has shown his agility already... but that slight hesitation is enough for these NFL defenders to catch up.

Again I feel he will be fine, he just needs to be out there more often. Time is ticking though, as far as playing time.

I have never seen agility or quickness from Lance. If anything, his pocket mobility and ability to be a running threat have both been extremely underwhelming.

first who are you? what was your old name on here? cause it sure wasn't Shemp.

anyway..

All 3 nice plays, thanks for sharing. If that's his best, it's nothing to write home about, but nice plays. I was Shaj. I shine shoes at Sac airport, remember? Terminal 1.

Originally posted by Shemp:

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by Shemp:

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Interesting take from Steve Young. He doesn't think Trey is slow mentally or confused but he's thinking too much trying to be perfect. Certainly possible.

Trey seems capable of making some plays out there, but he has to just settle down and run the offense. He's overwhelmed, that's very clear. The reason he's overwhelmed could be many different reasons.

Everything we've heard says he knows the offense super well, so why didn't he execute it properly most of Sunday?

He wasn't trusting his reads. Why? If they're processing fine, what would make a guy hesitate? If you look at where Trey was looking, it wasn't that he couldn't progress through his options, he just wouldn't pull the trigger and then half the time panicked or was late on throw to the outlet or third read.

It shows when he is in the pocket... it's not off instincts like when he first got in the league where he just ran out of there.... you see him try to do everything that he trained over the past few years. Protecting the ball with both hands while he hitches forward or around chaos, still looking down field. Now usually this is a good thing... he has to keep with this until it becomes natural.

Another example is when he leaves the pocket, where some think his athleticism is overrated....where as, imo, it's just because he's trying to be too perfect looking downfield instead of committing 100% to running forward. He's shown his quickness already.. has shown his agility already... but that slight hesitation is enough for these NFL defenders to catch up.

Again I feel he will be fine, he just needs to be out there more often. Time is ticking though, as far as playing time.

I have never seen agility or quickness from Lance. If anything, his pocket mobility and ability to be a running threat have both been extremely underwhelming.

first who are you? what was your old name on here? cause it sure wasn't Shemp.

anyway..

All 3 nice plays, thanks for sharing. If that's his best, it's nothing to write home about, but nice plays. I was Shaj. I shine shoes at Sac airport, remember? Terminal 1.

Um.. we don't know what his best is. He's barely played. But he's shown agility and quickness. No reason to think it's not there anymore after a year or two. He just shows hesitation now because he tries to look down field. That's part of his development.

We'll see if he can find the right balance eventually, be it with our team or another team.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
We got Darnold and Allen this year, fairly easily, with little investment. They both look to be pretty good backups. If we like them we can offer extensions for future. I am sure there are other backups that will be avail also, and the way we have built this with our OL, and skill guys plus KS, it's very QB friendly. They would want to come here, I imagine. I'm not sweating who the 2024 backups are.

You can offer them extensions, there's nothing saying they have to accept them. As I said, depending on how this year plays out they may not want to stay. Sure, there are always back-ups out there you can sign, but by next year Lance will have had three full off seasons and pre-seasons invested in the system and whatever other opportunities he might garner this year. It's not la certainty that anyone else they might bring in could say that. Whether the team considers him a QB2 or QB3 they will still need at least one more if both Darnold and Allen choose to move on. The downside to that though is that you will still owe him first round draft pick money for that year. Which could be a factor.

Originally posted by Afrikan:
first who are you? what was your old name on here? cause it sure wasn't Shemp.

anyway..

Shaj

But no agility or quickness.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
I keep going back to one thought. As far as I know, Darnold and Allen only signed one-year deals, which means we are still going to need QB's next year. Does Darnold want to stay on as a back-up, or will he be looking to start again somewhere, depending on how the season evolves of course. And what about Allen, I doubt he's considered starting material in this league, but he may have some options on where else he might want to go as a back-up. Lance is still under contract for two more years. Assuming they don't pick up his 5h year option, why not keep him around and see what he might turn into. Given our injury history at the position, I am all for keeping as many QB's as possible.

I made this comment multiple times, but not surprisingly, it was ignored by the posters who want to trade Trey.

Its a silly comment. Darnold and Allen's contract length should have no bearing on whether or not to keep Trey if that's what they want to do.

Darnold and Allen both came over this season. If they think both give them a better chance to win than Trey then they could easily find 2 more backups next year. Possibly even draft another (should have drafted Stetson Bennett this year IMO).

While I don't see a path to trading Trey at this stage, his draft status and contract length should be literally the last things to determine whether he's kept or not IMO

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49ers81:
I keep going back to one thought. As far as I know, Darnold and Allen only signed one-year deals, which means we are still going to need QB's next year. Does Darnold want to stay on as a back-up, or will he be looking to start again somewhere, depending on how the season evolves of course. And what about Allen, I doubt he's considered starting material in this league, but he may have some options on where else he might want to go as a back-up. Lance is still under contract for two more years. Assuming they don't pick up his 5h year option, why not keep him around and see what he might turn into. Given our injury history at the position, I am all for keeping as many QB's as possible.

I made this comment multiple times, but not surprisingly, it was ignored by the posters who want to trade Trey.

Its a silly comment. Darnold and Allen's contract length should have no bearing on whether or not to keep Trey if that's what they want to do.

Darnold and Allen both came over this season. If they think both give them a better chance to win than Trey then they could easily find 2 more backups next year. Possibly even draft another (should have drafted Stetson Bennett this year IMO).

While I don't see a path to trading Trey at this stage, his draft status and contract length should be literally the last things to determine whether he's kept or not IMO

Well sure. We could bring in two new backups. Point is, if we trade Trey, we could very realistically enter the offseason with just Purdy.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Shaj

But no agility or quickness.

Add Mark Schlereth, LeSean McCoy, Murph and Mac to the list, myself also. It's almost like that story, the Emperors New Clothes. For years I heard he's got run ability. Where is it? I don't see it. He gets ran down by front seven defenders, he doesn't make anyone miss in space, he gets beaten to the spot by front seven guys over and over. Who has more short area quickness between Lance or the last guy in the draft, BP? Real question. I don't know I'd probably say BP does.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's the distinction of QB1 v backup. Taking a flyer on a backup is fine in August. Detroit just did it a few days ago. Waiting til Aug to acquire your QB1 is more an issue. That's fairly obvious in my book. Also, again, big distinction, on QB2 vs QB3. QB2 means he gets to be active on gameday, play in TL packages, and he will get more reps all season. QB3 is inactive and he just sits on the bench, break in case of emergency.

It's not just this, it's our asking price. We'd effectively be giving Trey away for nothing to save a little bit of money, get a low round draft pick, and have a QB3 with arguably less volatility in case of emergency.

We weren't letting Jimmy G go for nothing because he has real value in the league, and most importantly was very valuable to us as insurance. With Purdy an unknown, Jimmy was near universally viewed as the best QB on our roster. We hoped Trey would play and improve, but there was no serious argument he was a better player than Jimmy by the end of camp last season.

That's why there was no market for Jimmy. There was no market at our asking price. There's next to no doubt we could have given him away for a conditional low round pick.

The situations are not close to comparable.

people who are poo-pooing the possibility of Trey getting traded could be in for a surprise. Trey's cap hit in 2024 is $10M again.