Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by frenchmov:
You haven't defined what a "natural passer" is. Your definition is that they just throw the ball accurately regardless of mechanics or anything else? I assure you that isn't true.

Which is crappy,...because he includes Josh Allen and his 52% completion percentage as a rookie as a "natural passer",...fixed mechanics and all. He's just talking at this point.

Why do we have to argue with people who don't understand the basic concepts of 11 on 11 football here?

This is the problem with football forums. There's no screening process here to differentiate people who understand basic football concepts from those who do not.

We need a basic football literacy test.

Originally posted by thl408:
We've seen this when the 49ers were using Kap in similar concepts, but that was with Greg Roman designing the pass plays. Kyle will marry the run game with the passing game and it will be much more effective. When Kap was here it was mostly inside zone and gap concepts. Kyle will use inside zone, outside zone, and gap concepts in the run game to go along with his passing game. I predict everything will be on the menu by the time Lance is in his 3rd year and Kyle will start coming with drastically different gameplans that change weekly, or perhaps even each drive will look different.

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Originally posted by ritz126:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by ritz126:
we should only run wildcat formation

Yes because that's 11 on 11 football

all the best offenses in nfl history have had pocket QBs

Best offense in football right now is KC. Baltimore and Seattle are top 10.

The league is changing dude, rules are different. The kids that are learning to play QB are now the most athletic. The league is now using college concepts more than ever.

Who's the last real "pure pocket passer" that's been super successful drafted?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Because the criticisms of Lance ignore the reality that the gap between him and Jimmy is small and it is shrinking. Not because Lance is great. Because Jimmy isn't.

People pretending like Lance starting would be any worse than 2020 Jimmy with his second worst INT% in the NFL (behind only Nick Mullens). The only way Jimmy is clearly and obviously better, as opposed to just a little better, is if Jimmy takes a big step forward.

So far in camp and preseason he has not.

I don't want to turn this into another Jimmy discussion but I can't help ask why you're bringing up 2020 Jimmy when the one and a half worth of games he was healthy he didn't turn the ball over at all?

And before people run in here to remind everyone that despite the lack of turnovers Jimmy wasn't lights out vs Arizona I will once again remind the same people he was out there with the 3rd string C and no Aiyuk or Deebo.

We need to trust Shanahan in doing what's best for the team and for Lance long term. We know Jimmy isn't a top tier QB which is why we drafted Lance to replace him but he's also not a total scrub so no need to paint him as such. I'd much rather Trey replace the best Jimmy Garoppolo vs the worst one.

IMO if Jimmy is healthy he can be a better QB than he was in 2019 which is certainly good enough to lead this team to wins.

Originally posted by RasSuar:
Why do we have to argue with people who don't understand the basic concepts of 11 on 11 football here?

This is the problem with football forums. There's no screening process here to differentiate people who understand basic football concepts from those who do not.

We need a basic football literacy test.

You have options, you can simply not respond to those posts or put those posters on ignore.

Originally posted by RasSuar:
Why do we have to argue with people who don't understand the basic concepts of 11 on 11 football here?

This is the problem with football forums. There's no screening process here to differentiate people who understand basic football concepts from those who do not.

We need a basic football literacy test.

Lol it's a fan forum, not a coaching contest site. Besides, it's pretty entertaining because the clueless stands out

Originally posted by thl408:
Educate us. What is 11 on 11 football?

I'll start by telling you what it isn't - it isn't synonymous with a wildcat offense!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by ritz126:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by ritz126:
we should only run wildcat formation

Yes because that's 11 on 11 football

all the best offenses in nfl history have had pocket QBs

Best offense in football right now is KC. Baltimore and Seattle are top 10.

The league is changing dude, rules are different. The kids that are learning to play QB are now the most athletic. The league is now using college concepts more than ever.

Who's the last real "pure pocket passer" that's been super successful drafted?

Let me clarify myself. They are pocket Qb first

Mahomes is mobile but no team is putting a spy on him or game planning around his ability to run

Just because a qb has the ability to run does not automatically make the offense better because its 11 on 11

Originally posted by evil:
You have options, you can simply not respond to those posts or put those posters on ignore.

.

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
Not saying Trey is an idiot whatsoever, on the contrary by all accounts he is an intelligent young man... I can teach you proper passing mechanics and you can learn them perfectly but that doesn't mean you will be able throw the ball like Trevor Lawrence (who is a natural passer imo).... some guys can just naturally throw the ball accurately with very little coaching and do this a very early age... it seems to be innate

You haven't defined what a "natural passer" is. Your definition is that they just throw the ball accurately regardless of mechanics or anything else? I assure you that isn't true.

By your "definition" (if you can call it a definition since you haven't really defined it) Trevor Lawrence could have not thrown a football his entire life, picked one up at age of 20 and boom he's accurate because he is just a "natural passer".

In reality, every QB good spends literally thousands of hours perfecting mechanics. The great ones go a level beyond and become machines with it.

There was a great interview with Steve young years ago where he said being a great QB was boring/mundane because you had to become like a machine: mechanics needed to be there, trust your reads mentally, and through muscle memory complete the same motion/mechanical process each time.

It's not about some magical "well I was born with it!" or whatever undefined definition you are using. This doesn't mean I'm saying Trey is guaranteed to refine his mechanics to such a level that he will be a machine (as many of the great were) but just to say that anyone can improve as a QB: can improve mechanics, recognition, accuracy, etc

we just see it differently then, I may be wrong but you seem to imply that all you need to do is teach someone the mechanics of passing and you have a QB... that hasn't been my experience, you can only get so far with mechanics only... the way I have seen it is that passing is like any other gift you can just do it well if you have the gift... it's something you see someone do and it's recognizable, and I don't see this is Trey... this probably won't be the explanation you want but it's the best I can do

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
we just see it differently then, I may be wrong but you seem to imply that all you need to do is teach someone the mechanics of passing and you have a QB... that hasn't been my experience, you can only get so far with mechanics only... the way I have seen it is that passing is like any other gift you can just do it well if you have the gift... it's something you see someone do and it's recognizable, and I don't see this is Trey... this probably won't be the explanation you want but it's the best I can do

You are correct in one thing: teaching someone doesn't guarantee anything. For example, Kyle shanahan could teach me better footwork, throwing motion, whatever but I have nowhere near an arm to succeed in the nfl. You could also have a guy with the arm but without the will (jamarcus Russell).

So yes, you need mechanics, you need the arm, you need the intelligence/recognition, and you need to be elite at ALL of those things if you want to be at the top in the nfl. That is why it's the hardest position in sports.

But elite players don't just "have a gift"

Originally posted by RasSuar:

Originally posted by thl408:
We've seen this when the 49ers were using Kap in similar concepts, but that was with Greg Roman designing the pass plays. Kyle will marry the run game with the passing game and it will be much more effective. When Kap was here it was mostly inside zone and gap concepts. Kyle will use inside zone, outside zone, and gap concepts in the run game to go along with his passing game. I predict everything will be on the menu by the time Lance is in his 3rd year and Kyle will start coming with drastically different gameplans that change weekly, or perhaps even each drive will look different.

.

Because Roman's run game was mainly inside zone, it couldn't benefit from the bootlegs that are in Kyle's offense (outside zone boot action), which is easy money when the target is Kittle/Deebo, who we know is breaking the first tackle. Funny enough, Geep Chryst (Tomsula) implemented an outside zone scheme, but it was mashed together with subpar personnel.

I think Kyle will be a bit impatient when it comes to bringing Lance up to speed. This is why I do think we will see an unorthodox QB rotation that will see Lance get increased reps if Lance shows he can handle it.

and then again running the football isn't about 11 vs 11 or wildcat, it's about getting more blockers at the point of attack than defenders

next game, draw a line through the center and count how many offensive guys and defensive guys there are on each half of that linel, trying to get more offensive blockers at the point of attack than defenders is the goal, this is simple math and the object of running the ball

Kyle will formation, shift and motion to gain that advantage on running plays which is his chess game and fun to watch

Originally posted by ritz126:
Let me clarify myself. They are pocket Qb first

Mahomes is mobile but no team is putting a spy on him or game planning around his ability to run

Just because a qb has the ability to run does not automatically make the offense better because its 11 on 11

Yeah and Trey's a pocket QB 1st. Not sure why this point was made.

A QB that knows how to use that ability can tax defenses,...especially with the way the rules are now.