Prayers for Damar Hamlin

Originally posted by luv49rs:

Originally posted by bsyde82:

Originally posted by ninersrule4:
I can't imagine what life is like for people who actually think this is vaccine related.

It's actually nice to critically think. To dismiss out of hand the possibility of any relation to the vaccine is just pure ignorance. You all acting like this happens all the time in the NFL when it has literally never happened. It could be a one in a billion chance hit, or it could be heart complications that made him more vulnerable to this super rare event. What am I saying here that is so unreasonable? I don't know what happened, like all of you, but the facts that we do know begs questions.

You want to put all vax-skeptical people in the same boat, that's fine. But I don't speak for any others, and opinions range broadly. There should be room for discussion without instantly accusing people of being Q anon or whatever.

i mean, the vaccine has had complications for me and other people. it's possible.

I had complications in that I basically had COVID for 24-48 hours, then I was fine.

Being fine for 1.5 years and then suddenly collapsing because of it doesn't make any sense, though. Doesn't seem like a vaccine issue at all.

And while there isn't really a comparable NFL situation (unless you count 1971 or 2005) there have been comparable situations in other sports (like the NHL) that happened well before COVID was a thing.

I don't like the vaccine constantly being brought up every time there's a death, and not to sound like an enlightened centrist (I probably already do) I also don't like how for every one kind of tone-deaf person (maybe or maybe not an anti-vaxxer) bringing it up, there's about 10-15 more people complaining about how anti-vaxxers always want to bring it up. I miss the days when politics wasn't getting jammed into everything.

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Driving to grocery store is 1/3000 chance something bad happens .

this conditions is in the billions . It would be like making my house airplane proof incase a plane crashed into it .

I get the first point. You are side-stepping the issues that I am raising, as evidenced by the accented above, however.

Factors to consider are likelihood of negative result, severity of negative result, and cost of mitigation or prevention of negative result.

Using the first example (car crash), the odds of a negative result are quite low, but not minuscule. The current cost of mitigating that risk (since cars must have seat belts) is negligible - a second to buckle up. The impact of that choice is to greatly reduce risk of serious injury of death. In sum, a solid cost/benefit in favor of putting a seat belt on, right? Same would be true as to putting a child in a car seat.

Using your example (plane crash into house a la Donny Darko), the odds of a negative result are next to zero, the impact of the negative result is high (death and destruction), and the cost to prevent the harm is astronomical (adamantium structure?) if not impossible. Conclusion - not worth it.

The situation here is in the middle. Assuming for our discussion that players could wear a chest pad that drops the risk of cardiac arrest to near zero and that the cost for such a pad is small($50 or less), is it worth it? You appear to say no, it is not. I disagree. I suspect that many parents would as well, particularly in the aftermath of this high profile tragedy and assuming the cause is as suspected.

Think of this way , how is the prevention of concussions going ?

but it's a great business idea. Bc you can probably sell a billion of them before you get sued for it not working .

I think the prevention of concussions is probably up since helmet use has increased (and technology has improved) in football, baseball, hockey and other sports. I also know first-hand that youth sports have really focused on diagnosing and preventing the issue in recent years, which has helped. Do you disagree?

On the last point, if the product worked, why would the manufacturer get sued? Again, I am assuming for arguments sake that fairly cheap technology exists to reduce the current level of risk to zero.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Or else you just don't want to discuss this seriously. I'm not attacking you at all - just trying to have a conversation - yet you shoot back glib and tangential responses.

The information and diagnosis is better , but the technology isn't what is preventing it is what I mean. (The numbers are the same
as 2002 - 2007 )

this is why I'm saying good luck making a product that prevents it ( catchers wear protection and still get them ) .

the airplane analogy is the same . We are unlikely
ever going to see if airplane proofing a house works or not bc it is an extremely rare thing that happens

yeah... we are talking past one another. I can't seem to articulate my position in a way that allows you to respond to it. you are talking about preventing damage from a multi-ton object flying from the sky. That cannot happen absent extreme cost. You are saying we don't have the tech to prevent a cardiac arrest on the field, while my hypothetical assumes that we do. etc. This is why you went to medical school and not law school. Our brains now work differently.

nah, that's not the complications i'm talking about. i'm talking about having otherwise normal health as a woman that became totally abnormal after the vaccine and boosters.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Driving to grocery store is 1/3000 chance something bad happens .

this conditions is in the billions . It would be like making my house airplane proof incase a plane crashed into it .

I get the first point. You are side-stepping the issues that I am raising, as evidenced by the accented above, however.

Factors to consider are likelihood of negative result, severity of negative result, and cost of mitigation or prevention of negative result.

Using the first example (car crash), the odds of a negative result are quite low, but not minuscule. The current cost of mitigating that risk (since cars must have seat belts) is negligible - a second to buckle up. The impact of that choice is to greatly reduce risk of serious injury of death. In sum, a solid cost/benefit in favor of putting a seat belt on, right? Same would be true as to putting a child in a car seat.

Using your example (plane crash into house a la Donny Darko), the odds of a negative result are next to zero, the impact of the negative result is high (death and destruction), and the cost to prevent the harm is astronomical (adamantium structure?) if not impossible. Conclusion - not worth it.

The situation here is in the middle. Assuming for our discussion that players could wear a chest pad that drops the risk of cardiac arrest to near zero and that the cost for such a pad is small($50 or less), is it worth it? You appear to say no, it is not. I disagree. I suspect that many parents would as well, particularly in the aftermath of this high profile tragedy and assuming the cause is as suspected.

Think of this way , how is the prevention of concussions going ?

but it's a great business idea. Bc you can probably sell a billion of them before you get sued for it not working .

I think the prevention of concussions is probably up since helmet use has increased (and technology has improved) in football, baseball, hockey and other sports. I also know first-hand that youth sports have really focused on diagnosing and preventing the issue in recent years, which has helped. Do you disagree?

On the last point, if the product worked, why would the manufacturer get sued? Again, I am assuming for arguments sake that fairly cheap technology exists to reduce the current level of risk to zero.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Or else you just don't want to discuss this seriously. I'm not attacking you at all - just trying to have a conversation - yet you shoot back glib and tangential responses.

The information and diagnosis is better , but the technology isn't what is preventing it is what I mean. (The numbers are the same
as 2002 - 2007 )

this is why I'm saying good luck making a product that prevents it ( catchers wear protection and still get them ) .

the airplane analogy is the same . We are unlikely
ever going to see if airplane proofing a house works or not bc it is an extremely rare thing that happens

yeah... we are talking past one another. I can't seem to articulate my position in a way that allows you to respond to it. you are talking about preventing damage from a multi-ton object flying from the sky. That cannot happen absent extreme cost. You are saying we don't have the tech to prevent a cardiac arrest on the field, while my hypothetical assumes that we do. etc. This is why you went to medical school and not law school. Our brains now work differently.

DEFINITELY different brains . We are trained to be very short and concise , you guys can write for days !

This study thinks there are 3 designs that may be able to prevent it .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5181132/

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
DEFINITELY different brains . We are trained to be very short and concise , you guys can write for days !

This study thinks there are 3 designs that may be able to prevent it .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5181132/

That short and precise dude blabbed on for like 20000 words. damn.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Got it. Thanks.

Odds are you will survive a trip to the grocery store around the corner driving without a seat belt on, but it is probably a good idea to strap in. Low risk is a factor, but severity of consequences is another.

Also, I think the answer to the last question depends on who you ask. Would a parent feel safer spending an extra $50 on a better quality chest protector knowing that it reduced the risk of such an event to nothing? Many would. If Damar's family could go back in time 24 hours with that option available to them, would they make a different choice? Certainly.

Again, I don't know if the risk can be eliminated by economically viable technology, but if it can then organizations like the NFL would be well served to require it. At the very least (and I hate this phrase), it is good for optics.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Well, you are clearly not a critical thinker.

Wow

Originally posted by bsyde82:
he's saying it's possible. That's all, is that too hard to comprehend? Because it seems like most here are saying it's impossible.

have you ever witnessed a grown man playing football experiencing an event like this? the hit was nothing special. In fact, it barely qualifies as a "hit" when you think about all the hits that occur all the time in the NFL.

It has happened to athletes in virtually every sport. Its extremely rare but its always possible, just a matter of being hit in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just bad luck. Statistically someone is far more likely to experience myocarditis from a single bout of Covid than they are from a vaccine and there is nothing to suggest that any of that was at work here.

You continuing to harp on vaccines when there is exactly zero evidence that this was vaccine-linked in anyway is old, its clear you're here to push an agenda and this is not the thread for it so take it elsewhere.

Almost 24 hours and still no real updates

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
DEFINITELY different brains . We are trained to be very short and concise , you guys can write for days !

This study thinks there are 3 designs that may be able to prevent it .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5181132/

That short and precise dude blabbed on for like 20000 words. damn.

What an a*****e !

Originally posted by bsyde82:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
And? It could have been the donut you ate that morning. It's possible.

he's saying it's possible. That's all, is that too hard to comprehend? Because it seems like most here are saying it's impossible.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
I am an emergency medicine and critical care physician. I deal with cardiac arrests from numerous causes all the time. This has nothing to do with the vaccine. End of story.

Is there an infinitesimal small remote possibility that a prior COVID infection caused myocarditis in this young man leading to higher chance of VF/VT? Yes, but he also couldn't even have gone through a warm up/workout let alone a practice or a game without having extreme symptoms. This is almost 100% certainty not related to COVID in any way (despite what internet and message board trolls might suggest).

There's also a small chance of a preexisting heart condition (HOCM, long QT, Brugada) that could have precipitated this event but that's also extraordinarily rare. Athletes are screened with ECHOs / ECGs to evaluate for these abnormalities (though they can sometimes be missed) after Reggie Lewis' unfortunate death in 1993. My sister is a Cardiologist in Arizona and did the screenings for the AZ Diamondbacks so I know they do at least ECHOs / ECGs.

The most likely cause is what everyone on the internet and twitter is already saying. A cardiac contusion leading to VF/VT or Commotio cordis as a result of blunt force trauma from the hit he took to the chest. The replay of the hit also suggests this.

The doctors in the ICU at his hospital are aware of all of this and are evaluating him for every possible cause and working up all injuries.

Let's just let him recover, hope for the best, and await official updates.

have you ever witnessed a grown man playing football experiencing an event like this? the hit was nothing special. In fact, it barely qualifies as a "hit" when you think about all the hits that occur all the time in the NFL.

Your logic is sound if if was myocarditis that was in process. Then there would have been symptoms during warm up...Granted...However, many athletes have and are dying on the field, mostly in other countries...69 died in one month at the end of 2021 when Vaxxing was near its peak. Here's an article that corroborates it..
https://dpbh.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/dpbhnvgov/content/Boards/BOH/Meetings/2021/Public%20Comments%20324%20to%20328.pdf

Here's an article from the highly respected Science magazine which reveals study which links cardiac deaths in young men to covid vaccines.
https://www.science.org/content/article/heart-risks-data-gaps-fuel-debate-covid-19-boosters-young-people

Sudden Death Syndrome especially in young adults is a global issue. Here's an article from Austrailia
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/what-is-sads-healthy-young-people-dying-from-sudden-adult-death-syndrome/news-story/97a476dd99caaf638cd1c15baabbc5d4

Does this mean that Damar Hamlin had a vax related health issue? We don't know. But we also should not summarily dismiss it. Currently the media, the government and the vaccine companies are doing their very best to downplay and deny there is an issue. It is very clear there is..

Originally posted by barrymartin:
Your logic is sound if if was myocarditis that was in process. Then there would have been symptoms during warm up...Granted...However, many athletes have and are dying on the field, mostly in other countries...69 died in one month at the end of 2021 when Vaxxing was near its peak. Here's an article that corroborates it..
https://dpbh.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/dpbhnvgov/content/Boards/BOH/Meetings/2021/Public%20Comments%20324%20to%20328.pdf

Here's an article from the highly respected Science magazine which reveals study which links cardiac deaths in young men to covid vaccines.
https://www.science.org/content/article/heart-risks-data-gaps-fuel-debate-covid-19-boosters-young-people

Sudden Death Syndrome especially in young adults is a global issue. Here's an article from Austrailia
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/what-is-sads-healthy-young-people-dying-from-sudden-adult-death-syndrome/news-story/97a476dd99caaf638cd1c15baabbc5d4

Does this mean that Damar Hamlin had a vax related health issue? We don't know. But we also should not summarily dismiss it. Currently the media, the government and the vaccine companies are doing their very best to downplay and deny there is an issue. It is very clear there is..

Its incredible how young athletes just never died before 2020, it was unheard of...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969030/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155532/

In a 2015 study of players in the National Collegiate Athletic Association, researchers showed that risks varied by sport and gender. Male Division I basketball players faced up to 10 times the risk of sudden cardiac death compared with all N.C.A.A. athletes. Male athletes faced a higher risk than women, and Black men faced a higher risk than men overall, the study found.

"Folks who maintain good amounts of exercise throughout their life span, they end up at lower risk of having these sudden events," said Dr. Meagan Wasfy, a sports cardiologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, who published a review of the study. "But for that small period of time where you're exercising, that risk goes up."

No one has been able to find any sort of increase in deaths of young athletes that wasn't statistical noise. It happened before, it will continue to happen. Its rare but when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of athletes, you're going to have some unlikely outcomes. Most of the alarmists promoting lists of hundreds and thousands of athletes either experiencing cardiovascular issues or dying are using cherry-picked nonsense, upon closer scrutiny, a lot of the deaths listed had absolutely zero to do with any kind of heart failure. Quite a few had never even been vaccinated, such as Christian Eriksen, who suffered cardiac failure but whose personal physician as well as team medical staff confirmed that he hadn't received any vaccines but had experienced a mild Covid infection months earlier. Some were really getting creative with their use of "athlete."

The definition of 'athlete' used by the article is very broad, and in many cases not accurate. In one incident a golf caddy who collapsed is included, despite that fact that they were not a competitor in the event. Joe Plant, a British man who suffered cardiac arrest while walking as part of a fundraiser for the British Heart Foundation in September is included on the list. What isn't included is the fact that Mr. Plant had a pre-existing cardiac condition, which is why he was walking to raise money for heart research. Moreover, the classification of a person walking to raise money as an 'athlete' is disingenuous. Overall, a review of the list finds that among those classified as 'athletes' are 8 spectators; 4 coaches or members of the team staff; 6 people not competing in a sporting event; and a referee who died in his sleep, with no mention of any recent involvement in sports.

Only two of the cases include any mention of COVID-19 vaccines. It isn't known if any of the people who collapsed were vaccinated, or if they had experienced COVID-19. SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has a lasting impact on a number of people referred to as 'long-haulers'. A leading area of concern amongst people with long COVID-19 are cardiovascular complications that persist after infection.

Several of the cases provide no evidence of cardiac involvement at all. For example, a case from Arcisate, Italy describes a referee who suffered a "medical emergency" which ended the match. This generic description could be anything from sudden death, to a soft tissue injury that limited mobility and prevented completion of the match. While anyone who collapses should be cause for concern, the reasons for these incidents could be as simple as dehydration – a common and often readily treatable condition.

Myocarditis occurrence in young men was about six-seven times higher in those infected with Covid itself.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34341797/

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines

https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/myocarditis-seven-times-more-likely-covid-19-vaccines/

If you really feel the need to push anti-vax arguments, take them elsewhere, this is not the thread for it.

Originally posted by ninerfan4life:
Almost 24 hours and still no real updates

According to CNN at the moment DH needed to be resuscitated twice; once on the field and once at the hospital according to an uncle of DH. He is still not breathing on his own and he is currently in PRONE position.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
I am an emergency medicine and critical care physician. I deal with cardiac arrests from numerous causes all the time. This has nothing to do with the vaccine. End of story.

Is there an infinitesimal small remote possibility that a prior COVID infection caused myocarditis in this young man leading to higher chance of VF/VT? Yes, but he also couldn't even have gone through a warm up/workout let alone a practice or a game without having extreme symptoms. This is almost 100% certainty not related to COVID in any way (despite what internet and message board trolls might suggest).

There's also a small chance of a preexisting heart condition (HOCM, long QT, Brugada) that could have precipitated this event but that's also extraordinarily rare. Athletes are screened with ECHOs / ECGs to evaluate for these abnormalities (though they can sometimes be missed) after Reggie Lewis' unfortunate death in 1993. My sister is a Cardiologist in Arizona and did the screenings for the AZ Diamondbacks so I know they do at least ECHOs / ECGs.

The most likely cause is what everyone on the internet and twitter is already saying. A cardiac contusion leading to VF/VT or Commotio cordis as a result of blunt force trauma from the hit he took to the chest. The replay of the hit also suggests this.

The doctors in the ICU at his hospital are aware of all of this and are evaluating him for every possible cause and working up all injuries.

Let's just let him recover, hope for the best, and await official updates.

All of this.

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by ninerfan4life:
Almost 24 hours and still no real updates

According to CNN at the moment DH needed to be resuscitated twice; once on the field and once at the hospital according to an uncle of DH. He is still not breathing on his own and he is currently in PRONE position.

I am a cardiologist.

People are stating it is due to commotio cordis (arrhythmia due to blunt trauma) to the chest which it could be but classically that is most often in kids and teens with small objects moving quickly (baseball, lacrosse, hockey, etc). He will need to be evaluated for cardiomyopathies (HCM, ARVC, etc) and channelopathies (CPVT, Brugada, Long QT syndrome, etc).

RIght now neurologic recovery is key. When the heart stops brain perfusion is key. You can have permanent brain damage in just minutes. CPR can curb that and buy time. The fact that he got good CPR quick and was defibrillated with an AED is key.

Right now he is intubated and sedated. Often we cool a patient core body temp in the setting of cardiac arrest. It can take up to 72 hours to prognosticate.

It also seems from this report that he has acute lung injury (ALI) or acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) which can happen from lung contusions (from CPR) or even just from an arrest.

The key will be his brain function.