Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:I can see the one back set, be a base offense for the 49ers in the near future. Latu is much bigger and taller than Juszczyk, and Juszczyk is 32, so I think they are grooming Latu and Willis to at least be able to operate a two tight end set. As in one back two tight ends. I can see Kittle and Kittle 2.0 (Latu), CMC, Deebo and Aiyuk all on the field at the same time. The potential for a 5 wide vertical attack is there as well as a inside zone/outside zone run play. The odd man out would be Juszczyk. He still has a few years left, but I think they might be phasing out the fullback, or one of them (Latu, Willis, Coletto) replaces Juszczyk as Offensive Weapon 2.0.
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Interesting take on the three-tight end formation. I think Kyle might go three tight end base offense, and that will allow Kyle to keep 4 tight ends.
Here we see the wide receiver and the second tight end streak deep. The first tight end and the running back both bolt for opposite sides, and the third tight end takes his defender (likely a cornerback) towards the center of the field. If the defense is in zone, they have to hope that every zone is covered. This is not likely, since the offense will have been pounding the ball with a goal line looking formation for several plays.
But what if the defense goes to man coverage?
How about the run game plays? Let's take another look at the base three tight end formation.
In the above diagram, the first tight end can line up behind the right guard, behind and centered to the right guard/right tackle, or behind the right tackle. The third tight end can motion to any of the spots just mentioned. As the offensive line zone blocks with a rightward slant, the tight ends nearest the line join the zone, while tight ends behind the line look for opponents to take out (much like a fullback would).
[...]
There are more potential formation combinations that proceed from motions in a three tight end formation than any other formation in football. Because of the dual role of the tight end position, the formations become more difficult to adjust to. Here's a simple example. Looking at the above diagram, picture the first tight end motioning to the right sideline before the play. Question: Does the defense
1. Take the cornerback on the third tight end out to cover the first tight end, while switching the middle linebacker to one of the remaining tight ends (leaving the strong side linebacker to figure out his coverage), or
2. Have the middle linebacker follow his man all the way to the edge of the field, leaving the middle of the formation exposed to a run?
https://footballtimes.org/three-tight-ends-offensive-formation/
As a base offense? I don't think Kyle would take one of his best playmakers (Aiyuk or Deebo) off the field to force Latu and Woerner onto the field. Perhaps a snap or two with 3 TEs on the field.
remember tho this is positionless so TE1 is CMC and RB is Deebo
I know you're kind of joking here but with a team 27th in passing attempts annually, I'm very curious to see how Kyle deploys all of the multi-position players with Juice, Deebo, Jennings, Willis, Kittle, Latu, Colletto, CMC, etc. Slot/F/Y.
I think thl is right in thinking "packages."
Didn't Baltimore, another run-centric team, also deploy 3 TE's a bit?
I like the three tight end set for Purdy, because he can still have 5 receivers go out on pass patterns as well as having three good blockers for the run game. If Purdy can perfect throwing left handed, he can roll out either left or right and have a Tight end to throw to.
Kidding, but seriously - in the two tight end set, I think Kittle will be a Touchdown Machine. He had 7 touchdowns with Purdy in the last 5 regular season games.
It'll be interesting to see what changes Kyle has in store now that he has an offseason to think of things for CMC/Deebo. And also how he adjusts his offense if Brock is the QB and the vision of 11 on 11 football, in the run game, is no longer a thing.
I'll try to find the article of Belichick talking about having a fullback versus a second TE. He went in depth about how it affects the run game. I wonder if it's a sign that Kyle has not tried to find a true successor at fullback. Because like you said, Juice is getting old and I don't think shoehorning the backup TE into a fullback role is a proper long term solution to fullback. Is it because Kyle will start moving away from fullback and use more second TE?
I think the move to a one back two TE set is *primarily* to protect Purdy. I mean Kyle would be stupid to *not address* Riddick and the TE failure situation at blocking him this offseason resulting in a serious Purdy injury. Riddick moves from one side to the other, he'll be facing a much bigger man than a fullback that is a good blocker, and a is also a receiver. I'm hoping if we face Riddick again, we'll burn the Eagle defense on a TE fake block and TE screen pass. One of the strengths of Latu is that he's one heck of a blocker like Kittle. Secondly, I think Kyle can see a day when his offense becomes a pass first offense versus a run first offense based on the continued evolution and development of Purdy as a passer. I think for a rookie, Purdy was insanely accurate - specially in the short to medium area, where TE's like to work. I'm looking for Kyle to bolster that part of Purdy's game and extend it and make the run game more lethal out of it. Add in a 3rd TE and you can see Lance running a Baltimore three tight end set too, with Trey doing a bit more running than Purdy in those three Tight End special packages. That's one way to get Trey some reps while Purdy is the QB1.
There are pros and cons to the fullback versus second TE grouping. I don't see how using a second TE helps Purdy any more than a FB - Reddick beat a TE on that play. On the play he got injured, there were two TEs in the game. I bet Juice in the backfield would have done a better job of blocking Reddick on that play than a TE. Juice in the backfield cut blocking Reddick may have done better than asking a TE to act like an offensive tackle.
Well that's where the three TE concept comes from. What if you had *another* Kittle 2.0 (who is bigger than Juszczyk) been in the backfield? Keep in mind, I don't think they can retain Juan Jennings even with an expanded cap. They still have to sign Bosa. Latu may be a 3rd down receiver a la Jennings if/when Jennings leaves for his 2nd contract. I think they will retain Deebo and possibly squeeze Aiyuk in, but Jennings - capwise - is going to be difficult. I think a two tight end set presents run fit problems to a defense, specially in first down base offense with all the motions Kyle employs and Latu being bigger and stronger (hopefully) than Juszczyk. Secondly, I think it allows Kyle to get to that magical 50/50 run pass split with a credible second TE as both a blocker and a receiver.
Here's Kyle talking a bit about his run game philosophy during last years playoffs...
I realize you guys had great success on the ground in 2019 and so you didn't throw the ball much at all, but in these two games, is this kind of more your style or more what you want that offense to be? A 50-50 split or a very close split between running and pass?Here's the play against Dallas where Juszczyk was on the LOS acting like a TE and Kittle caught a pass when he was not even supposed to be a receiver.
"Yeah, we always try to do that just because we don't like anyone to tee off in any direction. I wouldn't say it's necessarily the style of game that I want. It's that we feel we have to adapt to the style that we think you need to play to win whatever that given game is or that given moment that week and the better defensive lines you go against, the better defenses you go against, that style usually leads to slowing guys down and not allowing other teams to play at what they want to do and it also gives you a much higher percentage of winning the turnover battle too. I think you need to be able to win games that way in the playoffs a lot. Not always do you have to. We saw it a different way in our first week versus Seattle and we'll work all week to see how we see it this week too."
Note: I'm thinking of the one back, Two Tight End set as a *base* offense for first and ten, and not really employed for 2nd or 3rd downs.
For 3TE sets, that'd just be a package you might see sprinkled in a couple times a game if there's a mismatch to exploit.
I don't equate bigger to being better when it comes to run blocking. Juice's mobility is his greatest asset as a run blocker. I think a player like Juice is much more valuable than a second TE of equal talent, within SF's offense. And while he wouldn't be as good in the passing game as a second TE, having Deebo/Aiyuk/Kittle/CMC helps greatly to offset any shortcomings of having a fullback on the field (in the passing game).
But Kyle opting to spend draft capital on finding a dynamic second TE could be a hint as to where he wants to take his base offense. Perhaps Latu is just as mobile as Juice in the run game and can be a 'pretend fullback' on some downs in a similar manner to how Juice will play like a second TE on some downs.
The Two TE set could also be related to the 2021 cut blocking rules changes. Because the backside of zone blocking is usually cut blocks, and if those rules limit cut blocks, the pursuing backside end can screw up the play and not allow the RB a cutback lane at the point of decision. So now you have to man the backside of the zone run with (possibiy) a TE at the LOS to give the RB possible back side cuts, if you can't cut block anymore. (or if cut blocking is very difficult with the new rules)
NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reported the league has given the thumbs up on a proposal first brought by the competition committee that expands prohibition against blocking below the waist. The approved proposal illegalizes blocking below the waist by offensive and defensive players on scrimmage downs when contact occurs beyond five yards on either side of the line of scrimmage and more than two https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-owners-approve-expanded-rule-on-low-blocks-90-man-rosters-to-start-training-yards outside of either offensive tackle.as for Juszczyk, again, I think Purdy's passing talent can use a TE more than a Fullback because he's so accurate. A fullback generally is focused more on the run blocking, and so when I see Juszczyk - I see a blocker not a receiver (yes, I know he is a very good receiver). It's more in the contested high catches that I'm focused on - in the settings like the short yardage or endzone plays. That TE height advantage over the defender and Purdy's accuracy can give the offense the edge in the passing game vs Purdy having to pass to Juszczyk who is shorter and has a lesser catch radius. At the same time, the TE is a bigger body to be able to put in to block for first down run fits. With everybody going big nickel and 4-2-5 defenses, I think a bigger TE vs a Fullback has the advantage on base downs in general. Add in a 3rd TE on first downs, and you can see the dilemma a defense has in dealing with Kyle's zone runs and his counters to it. Remember, Kyle's entire offense revolves around a good run game. I think Baltimore and SF were the top two run teams in the league last year and the year before.
