John Elway is the most OVERRATED quarterback of all time

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BobS:
There are plenty of quarterbacks that look better in the box score than on the field and vice versa. Kirk Cousins is the current shining example of a guy who looks a lot better on paper than in person.

I get that. Very well aware. But how many quarterbacks....hell, how many players in sports history can you say are top 10 of all time but the stats aren't even close to reflecting that?

I mean seriously. I get that stats don't always tell the story. But if you want to make the claim that Elway is top 10 of all time, why don't the numbers come close to supporting that? Every single player that is widely considered top 10 player in every single sport can use stats to backup his case. But for some reason, people are willing to dismiss statistics entirely with Elway. Makes no sense to me.

Elway was a #1 pick who from 84-89 had a record of 60-27-1 including playing in 2 Superbowl's. Numbers didn't matter as much back then. Most people just saw the game score in the local paper or 2 highlight plays from the national half time show. Take a random box score from 1986 (his first pro bowl season): they won the game 38-17 against KC (who was 7-4) and you assume Elway put up big numbers but he was 15-29 for 196 yards no touchdowns and 3 sacks.

Things always come full circle don't they.....

Go back to the end of Elway's run, and there was very vocal fans from all over the country demanding that Elway be in the greatest off all time talk.....

Truth is, the NFL was more silo'ed in its approach to football than it is now. Elway was in that first generation of QBs that was leading the charge against the 3 yards and a cloud of dust style of offenses, that were crazy risk adverse, and the offense took a do no harm, and capitalize when the other team screws up approach.

Elway just happened to be drafted, by one of those Risk adverse, 3 yards and a cloud of dust coaches. So you can almost ignore the first half of his career as a measuring stick.

The 80s were wild, both in college and the NFL...you have the birth of the modern NFL as we know it...the major difference was the whole mesh of concepts we see today and think of the modern passing game were split into tons of different offenses.

Elway might have ben the next Dan Marino, he just happened to land on the wrong team, with the wrong coach.

The best argument for Elway was when the game was on the line, and Reeves took the handcuffs off the offense, Elway routinely moved the ball and won games. He was one of the NFL leaders for a long time with the most 4th QTR comebacks. In that era, he traded blows with Dan Marino in 4th qtr passing and comebacks...and took the lead for several years, though he eventually ended up as the number 3 in NFL history when he retired.

I think in some ways, Brock Purdy could end up being thought of as a John Elway type QB. Here in the modern passing era, he is tied to a coach that runs the football...and late in games is asked to go win it. History might look back a Purdy and say well...he can't have been great look at these dudes passing for 5k yards and such. Not that Shanny is nearly as conservative as Reeves...but in this era he is one of the safer coaches.

If you want a sense of what Elway felt like back in the day, think of the 49ers playoffs this year...backs against the wall and loosing....then you have to turn your QB loose to go win a game. You get those clutch passes, clutch runs by the QB...and against all odds the QB finds a way.

That comeback magic Elway had, was what pushed all the best ever talk when he retired. The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I don't think he was the best of all time, but he was in fact...way better then his stats would show us today.

Originally posted by Dshearn:
The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I don't think he was the best of all time, but he was in fact...way better then his stats would show us today.

I agree with what you are saying here, but hear me out. IF the truth is somewhere in the middle, then me saying he is the most overrated QB of all time is accurate.

How he is viewed: top 10 of ALL TIME
How he stacks up statistically: very poorly to his peers (see post #2 in this thread)

So if the truth is in the middle, he should be viewed as merely a good QB in his era. Instead, he is viewed as one of the best to ever do it. That right there shows that he IS incredibly overrated, which was my entire point in making this thread.

Originally posted by Dshearn:
Things always come full circle don't they.....

Go back to the end of Elway's run, and there was very vocal fans from all over the country demanding that Elway be in the greatest off all time talk.....

Truth is, the NFL was more silo'ed in its approach to football than it is now. Elway was in that first generation of QBs that was leading the charge against the 3 yards and a cloud of dust style of offenses, that were crazy risk adverse, and the offense took a do no harm, and capitalize when the other team screws up approach.

Elway just happened to be drafted, by one of those Risk adverse, 3 yards and a cloud of dust coaches. So you can almost ignore the first half of his career as a measuring stick.

The 80s were wild, both in college and the NFL...you have the birth of the modern NFL as we know it...the major difference was the whole mesh of concepts we see today and think of the modern passing game were split into tons of different offenses.

Elway might have ben the next Dan Marino, he just happened to land on the wrong team, with the wrong coach.

The best argument for Elway was when the game was on the line, and Reeves took the handcuffs off the offense, Elway routinely moved the ball and won games. He was one of the NFL leaders for a long time with the most 4th QTR comebacks. In that era, he traded blows with Dan Marino in 4th qtr passing and comebacks...and took the lead for several years, though he eventually ended up as the number 3 in NFL history when he retired.

I think in some ways, Brock Purdy could end up being thought of as a John Elway type QB. Here in the modern passing era, he is tied to a coach that runs the football...and late in games is asked to go win it. History might look back a Purdy and say well...he can't have been great look at these dudes passing for 5k yards and such. Not that Shanny is nearly as conservative as Reeves...but in this era he is one of the safer coaches.

If you want a sense of what Elway felt like back in the day, think of the 49ers playoffs this year...backs against the wall and loosing....then you have to turn your QB loose to go win a game. You get those clutch passes, clutch runs by the QB...and against all odds the QB finds a way.

That comeback magic Elway had, was what pushed all the best ever talk when he retired. The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I don't think he was the best of all time, but he was in fact...way better then his stats would show us today.

Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

During that same time frame, Bernie Kosar had nine 4th quarter comebacks.

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

one of the great all timers was Joe with KC vs Elway and the quality of those 2 QBs made the game great

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

During that same time frame, Bernie Kosar had nine 4th quarter comebacks.

And had 0 during his only Pro Bowl season.

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

During that same time frame, Bernie Kosar had nine 4th quarter comebacks.

And had 0 during his only Pro Bowl season.

Just pointing out that 4QC stat doesnt really prove anything.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BobS:
There are plenty of quarterbacks that look better in the box score than on the field and vice versa. Kirk Cousins is the current shining example of a guy who looks a lot better on paper than in person.

I get that. Very well aware. But how many quarterbacks....hell, how many players in sports history can you say are top 10 of all time but the stats aren't even close to reflecting that?

I mean seriously. I get that stats don't always tell the story. But if you want to make the claim that Elway is top 10 of all time, why don't the numbers come close to supporting that? Every single player that is widely considered top 10 player in every single sport can use stats to backup his case. But for some reason, people are willing to dismiss statistics entirely with Elway. Makes no sense to me.

Of the guys in the top ten all time argument I would say Elway had one of the weaker supporting casts on offense.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

During that same time frame, Bernie Kosar had nine 4th quarter comebacks.

And had 0 during his only Pro Bowl season.

Just pointing out that 4QC stat doesnt really prove anything.

Most of the time the same QB who engineered the comeback caused the deficit by earlier poor play.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Jcool:
Fun fact: from 1986-1989 Elway's peak 80s years of 3 Pro Bowls, 87 MVP and 2 Superbowl appearances, he had 7 4th quarter comebacks. Joe Montana during that same time: 10.

During that same time frame, Bernie Kosar had nine 4th quarter comebacks.

And had 0 during his only Pro Bowl season.

Just pointing out that 4QC stat doesnt really prove anything.

okay.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Dshearn:
The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, I don't think he was the best of all time, but he was in fact...way better then his stats would show us today.

How he is viewed: top 10 of ALL TIME
How he stacks up statistically: very poorly to his peers (see post #2 in this thread)

So if the truth is in the middle, he should be viewed as merely a good QB in his era. Instead, he is viewed as one of the best to ever do it. That right there shows that he IS incredibly overrated, which was my entire point in making this thread.

Well yeah.....if you are going by the insane reaction that he was the best ever, like we were hearing on sports center at the end of his career....he is hella overrated.

If we are going by game on the line, 3 mins left in the 4th a score wins the game....he was one of the best to ever play the game.

Hard for me, personally.....to separate the player from the system. I think Elway had top 10 all time ability, but I really would be hard pressed to put him top 10 all time....that is a massive chunk of data, and far to many players have real signature wow moments that can compete with Elway for that intangible 7th gear he can shift into late in games to win it. Hard to get past the fact that by the time he was winning super-bowls...it was not Elway it was the run game.

Even if we just look at his era and go with just the 80s....dude has STIFF competition

Montana, Moon, Marino, Kelly, Fouts... I say that because Fouts was still going to pro-bowls in 1985, and was a monster late 70s early 80s. I remember thinking of Elway as a rich mans Boomer Esiason or Phil Simms even. I remember when Boomer changed teams and right off the bat he had like some ridiculous 500 yard game.i might be miss remembering, but I think he had nearly 1000k yards two weeks. Boomer is another one of those dudes if we are going to "what if" a player...

After that you have to figure out what you are going to do Randall Cunningham, yet another what if player that was confined by system.

I could see a case for Elway top 5, but I could see an argument for 6 too..... just in the 80s.....especially if you are really high on Cunningham like I am, and have sympathy on him for his system.

I would like to see an argument for Elway top 10 all time, I doubt I would buy that argument....but I would like to hear it.

A little overrated, yes.

Not as overrated as Stat Paddy Mahomo, though.

He didn't "carry" those Broncos teams to anything. Those were defensive teams.

On the other hand, he was in the worst system of any of the guys considered elite back then.

Steve Young was outperformed by Steve DeBerg and Vinny Testaverde on Tampa Bay. People blame the players around him, but it was - as it always is - the system that was the difference between Young in San Francisco and Young in Tampa Bay. James Wilder, Kevin House, and Jimmie Giles were all good players.

Warren Moon was in the run and shoot. The run and shoot gave production to JAG receivers and made Jeff George look good on paper.

Troy Aikman sucked until Norv Turner came in. He's from the Don Coryell tree.

Dan Fouts was a nonfactor outside the Coryell system.

Brett Favre without the WCO is not seen as even remotely good. The guy wasn't accurate and he's a dumbass. Perfect example of the "style over substance" notions that now dominate with the Stat Paddy Mahomo nonsense. Difference is, Favre had to contend with the old equipment, playing surfaces, wide receivers who didn't have gloves that catch the balls for them, and the rules play callers had for how they process information, that actually expose you if you're stupid (and he was frequently exposed throughout his career, prior to his time in Mike McCarthy's system when the shotgun spread college garbage started to take off) and is clearly better than Mahomo.

Back to the Coryell system - his offensive coordinator, Joe Gibbs, won Super Bowls with 3 different QBs in Washington. He also had Jay Schroeder throw for 4,000+ yards in a season. That system made stars out of guys you'd have never even heard of.

Jim Kelly succeeded in Ted Marchibroda's K-gun offense, where Vinny Testaverde had a big season in 1996 with the Ravens.

Dan Marino's numbers were never the same after Jimmy Johnson took over. No, Marino didn't "carry" Duper and Clayton. Duper was burning people deep and Clayton was elite after the catch, breaking tons of tackles. Marino's initial decline was when Duper and Clayton started getting banged up, and it continued further when Shula retired.

I don't expect Elway to rank high when he's going against guys with far better offensive systems.

Backup QBs often outperform the starters on paper. Look at Elvis Grbac's numbers in 1995 compared to Steve Young's.

Jason Garrett had a huge game vs. the Packers on Thanksgiving 1994.

Frank Reich led the famous comeback for the Bills against the Oilers in the 1992-1993 AFC wildcard playoff game.

When Marino played only 5 games in 1993, the Dolphins wound up leading the league in passing yards. To be fair, Marino at least had the better efficiency numbers than Scott Mitchell and Dave Krieg.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I was and I get the idea that he was regarded as one of if not the best prospect coming out of college. In fact, I believe that is part of the reason why people believe he was as great as the incorrectly believe he was. He had this reputation of being elite and a winner coming out of college, and that never left him in spite of his play.

you realize that you at least acknowledged that he is a great QB in the post above, right?

They purposely do not rank HOFers.

So beyond this, your "chosen enemy" here is public perception,... not John Elway.

There should be some kind of plan or goal to get this information to every American football fan over 40 yrs old.

Then maybe enough chatter gets ESPIN to pick up on the noise and do some kind of documentary in response.

I mean things like this is the true aim, right?

Terrell Davis made John Elway.