John Elway is the most OVERRATED quarterback of all time

Brad Johnson, the 2002 Bucs' Pro Bowl quarterback, had a rating of 92.9. He threw for 234.5 yards per game on 6.8 yards per attempt, with 22 TDs to 6 INTs.

Stat Paddy Mahomo, the supposed greatest quarterback, player, and person to ever exist in football, who did not make the Pro Bowl, had a rating of 93.5. He threw for 245.5 yards per game on 6.8 yards per attempt, with 26 TDs and 11 INTs. He did this while playing in the most quarterback friendly system in the history of professional football.

I always talk about Andy Reid's system, but let's demonstrate exactly what this effect is.

Let's look at the quarterbacks who played in Andy Reid's system, as well as outside Andy Reid's system. I will throw out rookie seasons, since for many quarterbacks these are understandably bad seasons as they learn the game. That helps Alex Smith a lot.

I'll throw out Smith's season after returning from the injury as well.

Donovan McNabb

With Andy Reid: 87.8 rating.

After Andy Reid: 78.5 rating.

Alex Smith:

Before Andy Reid: 82.3 rating.

With Andy Reid: 94.8 rating.

After Andy Reid: 85.7 rating.

Michael Vick:

Before Andy Reid: 76.7 rating.

With Andy Reid: 87.8 rating.

After Andy Reid: 78.4 rating.

We can even throw in Jeff Garcia.

95.8 rating with Reid.

You may say, "so what? Garcia had similar ratings with the 49ers," but the previous 4 seasons, Garcia's rating averaged out to 79.7.

A.J. Feeley:

With Andy Reid:

I can't easily calculate this on profootballreference, as they're nonconsecutive seasons, but:

2001-2002: 79.3
2006-2007: 77.8

Without Andy Reid:

2004 Miami: 61.7
2011 Rams: 66.0

Should also mention that Matt Moore came off coaching HS football to replace Stat Paddy Mahomo in 2019, and the Queefs nearly went 2-0 against two playoff teams (GB and MIN). Moore's rating was 100.9.

The Eagles blew out a 49ers team that went 10-6 in 2002 on MNF with Koy Detmer starting. Detmer's rating was 115.8.

QBs who play for Andy Reid consistently do better with Reid than in the vast majority of other systems.

If you want a comparison between Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan, look at how Donovan McNabb did when playing for Andy Reid in 2009 vs. Kyle Shanahan in 2010:

Andy Reid: 92.9
Kyle Shanahan: 77.1

Stat Paddy Mahomo isn't a garbage time stat padder the way certain other QBs are. His way of padding stats, thanks to Andy Reid, is with "touchdown passes" that should be counted as runs by the ball carrier.

He's the king of shovel passes and little flip tosses that make his passing numbers look better than they are.

If Andy Reid were to call handoffs inside the 5 like many other coordinators, Mahomo would not have so many touchdown passes. Just imagine if in 1995, the Cowboys had Troy Aikman throwing shovel passes to Emmitt Smith from the 5 and in instead of handing it off to him for touchdown runs.

Troy Aikman in 1995 threw 16 touchdowns. Emmitt Smith ran for 25 touchdowns that year.

16 of Smith's touchdowns were from the 5 and in.

He could double his touchdowns total if he only had a play caller who padded his stats the way Reid does with Stat Paddy Mahomo.

Of Stat Paddy Mahomo's 41 touchdowns in 2022, only 1 of them traveled more than 19 yards in the air. He averaged 4.5 air yards per touchdown "throw."

Here's an example of a Stat Paddy Mahomo "touchdown throw"



Second play in this video.

When you rave about all of the "touchdown throws" Stat Paddy Mahomo has, you are talking about a guy who plays in this redzone offense:

Can we please stop derailing the thread. This has nothing to do with Mahomes. You already tried this crap and your thread got locked. Give it a rest.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Can we please stop derailing the thread. This has nothing to do with Mahomes. You already tried this crap and your thread got locked. Give it a rest.

Don't want to address it?

You came into my thread and did a one-liner about how you made a compelling argument (with nothing but statistics), but I couldn't have done the same...even though you claim you didn't read it (which is your go to line when you can't argue with what's said), because you're decided you're triggered by the same type of insulting nicknames you would endorse were it for a player you weren't brainwashed into thinking is amazeballs.

If you are calling Elway overrated, you have to call Stat Paddy Mahomo even more overrated by your logic.

All you do is evasive, passive-aggressive crap. It's obnoxious.

Go away

Originally posted by FootballExpert49ers:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Can we please stop derailing the thread. This has nothing to do with Mahomes. You already tried this crap and your thread got locked. Give it a rest.

Don't want to address it?

You came into my thread and did a one-liner about how you made a compelling argument (with nothing but statistics), but I couldn't have done the same...even though you claim you didn't read it (which is your go to line when you can't argue with what's said), because you're decided you're triggered by the same type of insulting nicknames you would endorse were it for a player you weren't brainwashed into thinking is amazeballs.

If you are calling Elway overrated, you have to call Stat Paddy Mahomo even more overrated by your logic.

All you do is evasive, passive-aggressive crap. It's obnoxious.

Correct. Didnt read the rest of your post, or any of the other recent ones. Grow up.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Correct. Didnt read the rest of your post, or any of the other recent ones. Grow up.

LOL. The passive-aggressive, evasive child is telling someone else to grow up.

You're plugging your ears and going, "la la la la, I can't hear you!" to deal with anything that challenges your idiotic statements.

Originally posted by FootballExpert49ers:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Correct. Didnt read the rest of your post, or any of the other recent ones. Grow up.

LOL. The passive-aggressive, evasive child is telling someone else to grow up.

You're plugging your ears and going, "la la la la, I can't hear you!" to deal with anything that challenges your idiotic statements.

Yes, I am. Grow up.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
John Elway won Player of the Month twice, in his 16 season career.

Brock Purdy won Player of the Month twice so far, in less than 1.5 seasons.

So you take Purdy over a rookie John Elway?

Because that's what I said.

+ Show all quotes
I was just wondering. Looking at Elways stats they were mediocre but idk how good the team around him was back then. Either way he had a very talented arm

Mediocre compared to what? Once you get pass the numbers Marino put up early in his career or a Dan Fouts, QBs didn't put up crazy numbers like that. You could make a Pro Bowl throwing 19 or 20 TDs. The whole discussion of his numbers reeks of I didn't watch football back then/I wasn't alive back then.

Mediocre compared to his contemporaries. Read the first page or two. I addressed all of this.

I will never compare QB stats across eras, for obvious reasons. But they absolutely can be compared to others IN his own era. And his stats do not compare favorably.

Okay, I went back and read. You made some compelling arguments. I'll say this in response

1) You used Elway's career numbers from 1983 - 1998 and looked specifically at QBs with 100 or more starts. But timing is everything. It fails to take into account the Dan Marino as well as West Coast Offense effect on the league. As teams began to either look for the big arm QB and as the WCO philosophies began to spread around the league, completion percentages began to creep up. Dan Reeves never really adapted his offense and he was John Elway's HC for 10 years. You really have two different things going on with the passing game as you get into the 90s with teams throwing the ball more, throwing more safer/controlled passes, or going full balls to the wall with the run and shoot offenses. Elway wasn't in an offense that caught up until Mike Shanahan was hired as HC for the Broncos in 1995. Ironically, Mike was John's OC, but under Dan Reeves. Mike Shanahan was a completely different play caller after his tenure with the 49ers. He had a similar type of QB in Steve Young and we saw the results of what the 49ers did offensively from 1992 - 1994, compared to what Mike was doing with the Broncos prior and the effects of what Mike did with them from 1995 - 1998.

2) Using Mike Shanahan pre-49ers and post-49ers gives more insight into another overlooked point. The difference in talent between the teams. The Broncos on offense do not at all compare to the 49ers teams of that era, save for Shannon Sharpe. But when we look at offensive talent, I'd argue what Elway had was behind what his contemporaries had as well. Marino had better talent, as did Warren moon, as did Bernie Kosar, as did Dave Krieg, as did Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Boomer Esiason, Mark Rypien,Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly etc. I think any QB of note that started 100 or more games from 1983 - 1998 had better talent than John Elway. That's 11 guys who had better talent, and I'm probably forgetting some. It pretty much proves the point that no QB did more with less consistently than John Elway.

3) Taking the first two points, yeah, there are not going to be many Player of the Months, MVP awards (and I agree with you, the 1987 MVP should've gone to Jerry Rice or Joe Montana), or gaudy season single passing numbers. But give him Duper, Clayton, and Nat Moore to throw to with that big arm he had. Or give him Mike Quick + Keith Jackson. Give him Sterling Sharpe, Give him a Steve Largent. Give him a Drew Hill, Haywood Jeffries, etc. Are you taking Mark Jackson/Vance Johnson/Steve Sewell over those names?

It's a miracle Elway got to three damn Super Bowls, as well as had other deep postseason runs. It's a miracle he won as many games as he did. Limited offensive talent and a limited playbook. He never had a chance to flourish until he was past his prime and got a HC who was on the cutting edge of where the league had gone.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
Go away

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
John Elway won Player of the Month twice, in his 16 season career.

Brock Purdy won Player of the Month twice so far, in less than 1.5 seasons.

So you take Purdy over a rookie John Elway?

Because that's what I said.

I was just wondering. Looking at Elways stats they were mediocre but idk how good the team around him was back then. Either way he had a very talented arm

+ Show all quotes
Mediocre compared to what? Once you get pass the numbers Marino put up early in his career or a Dan Fouts, QBs didn't put up crazy numbers like that. You could make a Pro Bowl throwing 19 or 20 TDs. The whole discussion of his numbers reeks of I didn't watch football back then/I wasn't alive back then.

Mediocre compared to his contemporaries. Read the first page or two. I addressed all of this.

I will never compare QB stats across eras, for obvious reasons. But they absolutely can be compared to others IN his own era. And his stats do not compare favorably.

Okay, I went back and read. You made some compelling arguments. I'll say this in response

1) You used Elway's career numbers from 1983 - 1998 and looked specifically at QBs with 100 or more starts. But timing is everything. It fails to take into account the Dan Marino as well as West Coast Offense effect on the league. As teams began to either look for the big arm QB and as the WCO philosophies began to spread around the league, completion percentages began to creep up. Dan Reeves never really adapted his offense and he was John Elway's HC for 10 years. You really have two different things going on with the passing game as you get into the 90s with teams throwing the ball more, throwing more safer/controlled passes, or going full balls to the wall with the run and shoot offenses. Elway wasn't in an offense that caught up until Mike Shanahan was hired as HC for the Broncos in 1995. Ironically, Mike was John's OC, but under Dan Reeves. Mike Shanahan was a completely different play caller after his tenure with the 49ers. He had a similar type of QB in Steve Young and we saw the results of what the 49ers did offensively from 1992 - 1994, compared to what Mike was doing with the Broncos prior and the effects of what Mike did with them from 1995 - 1998.

2) Using Mike Shanahan pre-49ers and post-49ers gives more insight into another overlooked point. The difference in talent between the teams. The Broncos on offense do not at all compare to the 49ers teams of that era, save for Shannon Sharpe. But when we look at offensive talent, I'd argue what Elway had was behind what his contemporaries had as well. Marino had better talent, as did Warren moon, as did Bernie Kosar, as did Dave Krieg, as did Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Boomer Esiason, Mark Rypien,Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly etc. I think any QB of note that started 100 or more games from 1983 - 1998 had better talent than John Elway. That's 11 guys who had better talent, and I'm probably forgetting some. It pretty much proves the point that no QB did more with less consistently than John Elway.

3) Taking the first two points, yeah, there are not going to be many Player of the Months, MVP awards (and I agree with you, the 1987 MVP should've gone to Jerry Rice or Joe Montana), or gaudy season single passing numbers. But give him Duper, Clayton, and Nat Moore to throw to with that big arm he had. Or give him Mike Quick + Keith Jackson. Give him Sterling Sharpe, Give him a Steve Largent. Give him a Drew Hill, Haywood Jeffries, etc. Are you taking Mark Jackson/Vance Johnson/Steve Sewell over those names?

It's a miracle Elway got to three damn Super Bowls, as well as had other deep postseason runs. It's a miracle he won as many games as he did. Limited offensive talent and a limited playbook. He never had a chance to flourish until he was past his prime and got a HC who was on the cutting edge of where the league had gone.

The miracle that delivered the superbowls was Terrell Davis.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
John Elway won Player of the Month twice, in his 16 season career.

Brock Purdy won Player of the Month twice so far, in less than 1.5 seasons.

So you take Purdy over a rookie John Elway?

Because that's what I said.

I was just wondering. Looking at Elways stats they were mediocre but idk how good the team around him was back then. Either way he had a very talented arm

Mediocre compared to what? Once you get pass the numbers Marino put up early in his career or a Dan Fouts, QBs didn't put up crazy numbers like that. You could make a Pro Bowl throwing 19 or 20 TDs. The whole discussion of his numbers reeks of I didn't watch football back then/I wasn't alive back then.

+ Show all quotes
Mediocre compared to his contemporaries. Read the first page or two. I addressed all of this.

I will never compare QB stats across eras, for obvious reasons. But they absolutely can be compared to others IN his own era. And his stats do not compare favorably.

Okay, I went back and read. You made some compelling arguments. I'll say this in response

1) You used Elway's career numbers from 1983 - 1998 and looked specifically at QBs with 100 or more starts. But timing is everything. It fails to take into account the Dan Marino as well as West Coast Offense effect on the league. As teams began to either look for the big arm QB and as the WCO philosophies began to spread around the league, completion percentages began to creep up. Dan Reeves never really adapted his offense and he was John Elway's HC for 10 years. You really have two different things going on with the passing game as you get into the 90s with teams throwing the ball more, throwing more safer/controlled passes, or going full balls to the wall with the run and shoot offenses. Elway wasn't in an offense that caught up until Mike Shanahan was hired as HC for the Broncos in 1995. Ironically, Mike was John's OC, but under Dan Reeves. Mike Shanahan was a completely different play caller after his tenure with the 49ers. He had a similar type of QB in Steve Young and we saw the results of what the 49ers did offensively from 1992 - 1994, compared to what Mike was doing with the Broncos prior and the effects of what Mike did with them from 1995 - 1998.

2) Using Mike Shanahan pre-49ers and post-49ers gives more insight into another overlooked point. The difference in talent between the teams. The Broncos on offense do not at all compare to the 49ers teams of that era, save for Shannon Sharpe. But when we look at offensive talent, I'd argue what Elway had was behind what his contemporaries had as well. Marino had better talent, as did Warren moon, as did Bernie Kosar, as did Dave Krieg, as did Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Boomer Esiason, Mark Rypien,Randall Cunningham, Jim Kelly etc. I think any QB of note that started 100 or more games from 1983 - 1998 had better talent than John Elway. That's 11 guys who had better talent, and I'm probably forgetting some. It pretty much proves the point that no QB did more with less consistently than John Elway.

3) Taking the first two points, yeah, there are not going to be many Player of the Months, MVP awards (and I agree with you, the 1987 MVP should've gone to Jerry Rice or Joe Montana), or gaudy season single passing numbers. But give him Duper, Clayton, and Nat Moore to throw to with that big arm he had. Or give him Mike Quick + Keith Jackson. Give him Sterling Sharpe, Give him a Steve Largent. Give him a Drew Hill, Haywood Jeffries, etc. Are you taking Mark Jackson/Vance Johnson/Steve Sewell over those names?

It's a miracle Elway got to three damn Super Bowls, as well as had other deep postseason runs. It's a miracle he won as many games as he did. Limited offensive talent and a limited playbook. He never had a chance to flourish until he was past his prime and got a HC who was on the cutting edge of where the league had gone.

The miracle that delivered the superbowls was Terrell Davis.

I referenced the three Super Bowls before Terrell Davis. It's a miracle he did that because the AFC teams at the time that were in contention had more talent.

Originally posted by FootballExpert49ers:
Stat Paddy Mahomo isn't a garbage time stat padder the way certain other QBs are. His way of padding stats, thanks to Andy Reid, is with "touchdown passes" that should be counted as runs by the ball carrier.

He's the king of shovel passes and little flip tosses that make his passing numbers look better than they are.

If Andy Reid were to call handoffs inside the 5 like many other coordinators, Mahomo would not have so many touchdown passes. Just imagine if in 1995, the Cowboys had Troy Aikman throwing shovel passes to Emmitt Smith from the 5 and in instead of handing it off to him for touchdown runs.

Troy Aikman in 1995 threw 16 touchdowns. Emmitt Smith ran for 25 touchdowns that year.

16 of Smith's touchdowns were from the 5 and in.

He could double his touchdowns total if he only had a play caller who padded his stats the way Reid does with Stat Paddy Mahomo.

Of Stat Paddy Mahomo's 41 touchdowns in 2022, only 1 of them traveled more than 19 yards in the air. He averaged 4.5 air yards per touchdown "throw."

Here's an example of a Stat Paddy Mahomo "touchdown throw"



Second play in this video.

When you rave about all of the "touchdown throws" Stat Paddy Mahomo has, you are talking about a guy who plays in this redzone offense:

When did you start watching football? Honestly because when he actually had talent on the Offense outside of Kelce he had a 50 TD season. Only Manning and Brady have managed this accomplishment in their careers.

Originally posted by jcs:
When did you start watching football? Honestly because when he actually had talent on the Offense outside of Kelce he had a 50 TD season. Only Manning and Brady have managed this accomplishment in their careers.

How many of those were impressive throws?