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Originally posted by captveg:
Originally posted by Furlow:
You've been pretending to know what you're talking about when it comes to this, just stop.

Fine. My reasoning was based in some conversations I had a few years ago about similar liabilty of a business, but if I was misinformed then so be it.

If Janitor had simpy made a straightforward point about this instead of lording it over me and laughing in my face in order to be the big dog I likely wouldn't have kept my defenses up and been so stubborn about it. But the defenses were mine and I own that. I still say it was obvious that "impossible" was clearly in context of the liability claim of the team, not at all meant in a physical reality sense. But this will be my final word on this aspect of this matter.

Originally posted by Furlow:
I remain shocked at how many people there are that blindly defend billionaires and their shady/greedy business practices.

See, this is my main source of frustration about this - this argument of "they're just cheap" would be great if it wasn't so muddled by other aspects. If there was consistent cheapness and avarice about these things by the 49ers I would agree with you. But I can't reconcile that argument with other factors.

As Young2Rice suggested, the team may be holding onto a more expensive-than-misters non-solution. That doesn't fit neatly into the "they're just cheap" narrative.

Then there's the lowering the bottle water price, which goes against that narrative. If they were just about the bottom line in the quickest and easiest way, they'd gouge water prices by raising them even higher, right?

Then there's the money spent in the last couple years on non-heat concerns, such as overhauling the food services. Obviously this is more profitable in the long run, but usually the opposite - quick fixes to save an immediate buck - are the symptoms of a wholly cheap philosophy. Keeping all fans cool and comfy would fall under the long-run profits philosophy, which is the opposite of just being cheap for cheap's sake.

Which brings us back to Al Guido's statement about misters not being a viable option for them. There's clearly something there that is giving them pause.

If it was the quick, money-saving miracle solution many of you are suggesting then a cheap, money-saving owner should be jumping at the opportunity to install them and boast about it, not disgruntle the fanbase further by making something up as to the reason for it not being viable. There just has to be something else - something practical and/or legitimately unappealing financially - for either the cheap or impractical to make any sense.

And it could end up being either one of those possibilities. I'm simply suggesting neither adds up with the information we have at the moment. If someone has some actual insight into what it may be - on either side of that pendulum - then I'm all ears. But just saying "they're cheap" doesn't work for me here. It's too vague and too contradictory for reasons I stated above, at least without further relative information.

Gets timeout, comes back and throws shade in the first post.

Stay classy
  • Cjez
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I'm with captveg on this one.
Originally posted by captveg:
Originally posted by Furlow:
You've been pretending to know what you're talking about when it comes to this, just stop.

Fine. My reasoning was based in some conversations I had a few years ago about similar liabilty of a business, but if I was misinformed then so be it.

If Janitor had simpy made a straightforward point about this instead of lording it over me and laughing in my face in order to be the big dog I likely wouldn't have kept my defenses up and been so stubborn about it. But the defenses were mine and I own that. I still say it was obvious that "impossible" was clearly in context of the liability claim of the team, not at all meant in a physical reality sense. But this will be my final word on this aspect of this matter.

Originally posted by Furlow:
I remain shocked at how many people there are that blindly defend billionaires and their shady/greedy business practices.

See, this is my main source of frustration about this - this argument of "they're just cheap" would be great if it wasn't so muddled by other aspects. If there was consistent cheapness and avarice about these things by the 49ers I would agree with you. But I can't reconcile that argument with other factors.

As Young2Rice suggested, the team may be holding onto a more expensive-than-misters non-solution. That doesn't fit neatly into the "they're just cheap" narrative.

Then there's the lowering the bottle water price, which goes against that narrative. If they were just about the bottom line in the quickest and easiest way, they'd gouge water prices by raising them even higher, right?

Then there's the money spent in the last couple years on non-heat concerns, such as overhauling the food services. Obviously this is more profitable in the long run, but usually the opposite - quick fixes to save an immediate buck - are the symptoms of a wholly cheap philosophy. Keeping all fans cool and comfy would fall under the long-run profits philosophy, which is the opposite of just being cheap for cheap's sake.

Which brings us back to Al Guido's statement about misters not being a viable option for them. There's clearly something there that is giving them pause.

If it was the quick, money-saving miracle solution many of you are suggesting then a cheap, money-saving owner should be jumping at the opportunity to install them and boast about it, not disgruntle the fanbase further by making something up as to the reason for it not being viable. There just has to be something else - something practical and/or legitimately unappealing financially - for either the cheap or impractical to make any sense.

And it could end up being either one of those possibilities. I'm simply suggesting neither adds up with the information we have at the moment. If someone has some actual insight into what it may be - on either side of that pendulum - then I'm all ears. But just saying "they're cheap" doesn't work for me here. It's too vague and too contradictory for reasons I stated above, at least without further relative information.

Lol sometimes it's just better to say you were wrong rather than writing a bunch of crap just to sound smart.
  • Cjez
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faithful just need to suck it up, throw on a little sun screen and drink your pedialite.

Originally posted by Furlow:
Gets offended that he's accused of defending billionaire owners and their shady business practices, responds with a research paper defending a billionaire owner and his shady business practices.

Classic.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was trying to provide an opportunity for some legitimate discussion about it, but you clearly don't want to do that. Despite what you think, your point is not self evident.

Originally posted by Furlow:
It's a terrible argument. None of the things he mentioned are nearly as expensive as adding shade and/or misters, which have zero return on investment. The PSL's are already committed to, and that's all ownership cares about. Lowering the price of water is supply/demand, and improving the food boosts sales and profitability. All of those things he mentioned will make the team more profitable. Adding shade and/or misters will not. That's our point, all they care about is profit, and he continues to prove that, and vehemently defend it.

Our definition of "vehemently" is wildly different. And you guys need to get your story on the same page, which is why I pointed out Young2Rice's comment about installing misters perhaps being a money saver.

I'm looking for more evidence from your point of view, but all I seem to end up getting is just folded arms and a repeating of "They're cheap, I say. Cheap!" That's not an explanation, it's a mantra.

And even more inconsistent and confusing, you argue that something like lowering costs of bottled water is them being cheap. Well, if they only care about profit when they lower costs, and they only care about profit when they raise costs (such as for tickets or other items), then you've created a no-win scenario wherein no matter what the 49ers do it is evidence of their bilking of the consumer. That's rather illogical gymnastics, IMO.

Supply-demand theory for water when the demand is higher than supply suggests they should raise the price, not lower it, if profit was their only goal, no?
[ Edited by captveg on Aug 28, 2018 at 10:52 AM ]
  • Furlow
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 22,407
Originally posted by captveg:
Originally posted by Furlow:
Gets offended that he's accused of defending billionaire owners and their shady business practices, responds with a research paper defending a billionaire owner and his shady business practices.

Classic.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was trying to provide an opportunity for some legitimate discussion about it, but you clearly don't want to do that. Despite what you think, your point is not self evident.

Originally posted by Furlow:
It's a terrible argument. None of the things he mentioned are nearly as expensive as adding shade and/or misters, which have zero return on investment. The PSL's are already committed to, and that's all ownership cares about. Lowering the price of water is supply/demand, and improving the food boosts sales and profitability. All of those things he mentioned will make the team more profitable. Adding shade and/or misters will not. That's our point, all they care about is profit, and he continues to prove that, and vehemently defend it.

Our definition of "vehemently" is wildly different. And you guys need to get your story on the same page, which is why I pointed out Young2Rice's comment about installing misters perhaps being a money saver.

I'm looking for more evidence from your point of view, but all I seem to end up getting is just folded arms and a repeating of "They're cheap, I say. Cheap!" That's not an explanation, it's a mantra.

And even more inconsistent and confusing, you argue that something like lowering costs of bottled water is them being cheap. Well, if they only care about profit when they lower costs, and they only care about profit when they raise costs (such as for tickets or other items), then you've created a no-win scenario wherein no matter what the 49ers do it is evidence of their bilking of the consumer. That's rather illogical gymnastics, IMO.

Supply-demand theory for water when the demand is higher than supply suggests they should raise the price, not lower it, if profit was their only goal, no?

People weren't buying $8 bottles of water, despite how hot they were. So the team lowered the price to a point where it was profitable. Did they possibly lower it below the ideal profitable price? Perhaps. THANK YOU, JED! You're so generous. You sacrificed a few thousand dollars per game to sell us water to give the illusion that you care. WHAT A GUY!

Plenty of "evidence" has been provided that shade and/or misters are possible, and being done at many stadiums and theme parks across the US. The 49ers are choosing to do neither. You can believe that they're greedy b*****ds who only care about profit, or you can believe they're really nice guys with great intentions who just can't figure out a way to add misters and/or shade. To most of us it's pretty obvious. Either way, they are flat out lying by saying "it's not possible," which was our point to begin with. I'd prefer they just tell the truth that they're not going to spend money on those things (in whatever BS PR language they want to use).
Originally posted by Furlow:
People weren't buying $8 bottles of water, despite how hot they were. So the team lowered the price to a point where it was profitable.

A reasonable point - this was they type of thing I was looking for, instead of just telling me off or implying I'm a worthless piece of s**t over and over. A little basic level of discourse.

Originally posted by Furlow:
You can believe that they're greedy b*****ds who only care about profit, or you can believe they're really nice guys with great intentions who just can't figure out a way to add misters and/or shade.

The truth is likely down the middle, not to either extreme. They're for profit only up to a point, and/or they're really nice guys only up to a point. I'd say it likely leans more towards the business inclination, but there are degrees to these things, not black/white absolutes. We're debating where that line is, and while I believe they are going to serve the best interests of their business more often than not, I do think it's evident that they also want to do that without making an outright enemy of every fan, and not solely for longterm profit motives, though it is absolutely a factor.

Originally posted by Furlow:Either way, they are flat out lying by saying "it's not possible," which was our point to begin with.

I figured everyone understood the "it's not possible" statement to be in context of unspoken parameters. Now, those caveats may be based on their own cost-benefit analysis you find appalling or below your standard, but that's not the same thing as believing it literally cannot be done because misters had never been done before in the history of mankind, which Al Guido was fairly obviously not saying. That's the illogic I was pushing back against.

But ANYWAY, this September, beware the Demon Sun of Levi's. Oooooooh-ooooooooooh!!


[ Edited by captveg on Aug 28, 2018 at 1:04 PM ]
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
I'm with captveg on this one.

#metoo
You guys are still having a dick measuring contest in here over wet concrete?
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
You guys are still having a dick measuring contest in here over wet concrete?

Just another recycled "yorks are cheap" discussion going on for the thousandth time

Nothing to see here
[ Edited by DonnieDarko on Aug 28, 2018 at 9:03 PM ]
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
faithful just need to suck it up, throw on a little sun screen and drink your pedialite.


Lol
Originally posted by 49erWill:
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
faithful just need to suck it up, throw on a little sun screen and drink your pedialite.


Lol

75??? Thats a beautiful day in LA lol
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
You guys are still having a dick measuring contest in here over wet concrete?

Just another recycled "yorks are cheap" discussion going on for the thousandth time

Nothing to see here

My argument isn't even that they are cheap. Just that they are lying.
Specifically, this statement

"One suggestion from fans has been to install built-in misters throughout Levi's Stadium. That's isn't a viable solution either. Guido points out that, unlike in Arizona, the area's humidity would create a safety issue with misters. While it might offer relief from the heat, fans could slip on the resulting wet concrete surfaces."

Which I have rebutted very thoroughly.
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