How do you teach "tough minded football" ?

Originally posted by Sabrason:
SNF quote: Through parsing my post you completely ignored the paragrapgh with the central point . . . nice work.

[i][u]SNF Quote: That doesn't mean the franchise or the fan base have accepted mediocrity. It means that the expectation of success needs to be rebuilt from the bottom - up, again through consistent winning and playoff appearances. This team is young and building, and tangible improvement towards creating a new Superbowl or bust mentality should not be dismissed (or abandoned) simply because it wasn't enough of an improvement in the eyes of some or because the coach is a former Bear . . . [/i][/u]

I apologize, please forgive me for ignoring your "central point" which I will now address. A fan's expectation of success does not need to be rebuilt unless it was damaged/diminished in the first place -- which it clearly has with you and many others here. Being "ok with 8-8" simply b/c it would be the best record since 2002 is an example of that.

However, other fans such as myself, Singfan, etc have personally expected the same high standards since the glory days despite the Yorks and team falling well short of that for the last 8-10 years. Our expectations WERE high, ARE high and therefore don't need any rebuilding. The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team.

Of course, the ownership's expectations of success are certainly in need of rebuilding since they have accepted mediocrity for far too long. I'm not sure it even requires a long drawn-out process of "rebuilding" --- you just instantly expect more and do whatever it takes to see those expectations realized. Unfortunately, I don't think the Yorks are capable of that as I see little in the way of them modeling the team after the successful Patriots franchise that was once talked about.


SNF quote: what part of any of my posts suggests anyone should be happy with 8-8 every year?

Quote:
No part of your post suggested you're HAPPY with it, but you did say you were "ok" with it which, after the last decade of failure, no fan should be, IMO. For team expectations to increase i think it first needs to start with the ENTIRE fan base expecting more rather than being "ok" with 8-8 mediocrity simply b/c it would be better than any record they had since 2002. That is no reason at all. As Singfan mentioned, I can sense you changing your tune a little which his good.

Back to my previous question I notice you didn't answer: you want to see "tangible improvement" from MS even if it's only by one game from 7-9 to 8-8. Can't get any less tangible than that but ok. You'd be "ok" with that miniscule improvement enough to support MS and consider his job 'more than safe" with at least that record.

However, the more pronounced "tangible improvement" that you deem to be so important and that Martz orchestrated on offense last year went largely unrecognized and ignored in favor of focusing on isolated minutia that was cited as justification for what was truly an absurd and inappropriate firing. Do you think that was the correct thing to do. I know respected analysts like Jimmy Johnson didn't think so as he did not think Martz deserved to be canned.

I'm left wondering why Martz's faar more pronounced "tangible improvements" were ignored while MS's far less pronounced improvements were embraced and celebrated and will, in all liklihood, continue to be? It doesn't make any sense just as PA's siding with an unproven coaching nobody like MS over a former 49er coach and SB winner like Shanny and Holmgren doesn't. Since when do 49er fans turn on former coaches from the good years???

Between turning on those former 49er coaches and being ok with mediocrity, the state of the fan base (at least in here) has me a bit concerned.

“The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team”

I would agree with that if the downs were stitched together with contending campaigns. But after six straight losing seasons, applying those expectations to the current team would be similar to applying them to the 1979 or 1980 teams before we expected nothing less than a Division Title and a Superbowl run. I simply can't expect that of this years team.

As far as six straight losing seasons being “no reason at all” to make an 8-8 record OK; Really? No reason at all? Would it not be a clear improvement upon which future growth could be built? I’ll answer that . . . Of course. Which is why I believe Singletary should feel “more than” secure for 2010 if we reach 8-8 in 2009 . . . beyond 2010 he shouldn’t feel comfortable unless we’re in the Playoffs. If you want to call that changing tunes be my guest.

Back to Martz? . . . OK.

Obviously his firing was a risky proposition for Singletary. If the 2009 offense under-performs compared to 2008, the question of Martz’ dismissal will be raised again and again. Under Martz in 2008 the offense averaged 311 yards per game (211 Pass/100 Run) which was obviously more than just a tangible improvement over the dismal 237 Yards per Game (145/92) under Hostler in 2007.

The improvement in 2008 under Martz was more modest compared to 2006 under Turner when we averaged 304 Yards per Game (168/136). The obvious difference is the Pass/Run ratio (68/32) vs. (55/45) which is clearly important to Singletary.

Then why was Martz canned? Well I think in addition to Singletary’s stated goal of building an offense around a strong ground game (not what Mad Mike is known for), it’s my theory that given the way Martz fixed the “QB competition” in 2008 he probably poisoned the well as far as long-term coaching interaction with Hill and Smith and made Singletary’s decision to go in another direction fairly easy and almost necessary.

Speaking of numbers, if we return to something closer to Norv Turner's offense, in a perfect world under Jimmy Raye in 2009 I’d like to see improvement in the neighborhood of 340-350 yards per game (210/140).

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

Originally posted by Sabrason:
SNF quote: Through parsing my post you completely ignored the paragrapgh with the central point . . . nice work.

[i][u]SNF Quote: That doesn't mean the franchise or the fan base have accepted mediocrity. It means that the expectation of success needs to be rebuilt from the bottom - up, again through consistent winning and playoff appearances. This team is young and building, and tangible improvement towards creating a new Superbowl or bust mentality should not be dismissed (or abandoned) simply because it wasn't enough of an improvement in the eyes of some or because the coach is a former Bear . . . [/i][/u]

I apologize, please forgive me for ignoring your "central point" which I will now address. A fan's expectation of success does not need to be rebuilt unless it was damaged/diminished in the first place -- which it clearly has with you and many others here. Being "ok with 8-8" simply b/c it would be the best record since 2002 is an example of that.

However, other fans such as myself, Singfan, etc have personally expected the same high standards since the glory days despite the Yorks and team falling well short of that for the last 8-10 years. Our expectations WERE high, ARE high and therefore don't need any rebuilding. The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team.

Of course, the ownership's expectations of success are certainly in need of rebuilding since they have accepted mediocrity for far too long. I'm not sure it even requires a long drawn-out process of "rebuilding" --- you just instantly expect more and do whatever it takes to see those expectations realized. Unfortunately, I don't think the Yorks are capable of that as I see little in the way of them modeling the team after the successful Patriots franchise that was once talked about.


SNF quote: what part of any of my posts suggests anyone should be happy with 8-8 every year?

Quote:
No part of your post suggested you're HAPPY with it, but you did say you were "ok" with it which, after the last decade of failure, no fan should be, IMO. For team expectations to increase i think it first needs to start with the ENTIRE fan base expecting more rather than being "ok" with 8-8 mediocrity simply b/c it would be better than any record they had since 2002. That is no reason at all. As Singfan mentioned, I can sense you changing your tune a little which his good.

Back to my previous question I notice you didn't answer: you want to see "tangible improvement" from MS even if it's only by one game from 7-9 to 8-8. Can't get any less tangible than that but ok. You'd be "ok" with that miniscule improvement enough to support MS and consider his job 'more than safe" with at least that record.

However, the more pronounced "tangible improvement" that you deem to be so important and that Martz orchestrated on offense last year went largely unrecognized and ignored in favor of focusing on isolated minutia that was cited as justification for what was truly an absurd and inappropriate firing. Do you think that was the correct thing to do. I know respected analysts like Jimmy Johnson didn't think so as he did not think Martz deserved to be canned.

I'm left wondering why Martz's faar more pronounced "tangible improvements" were ignored while MS's far less pronounced improvements were embraced and celebrated and will, in all liklihood, continue to be? It doesn't make any sense just as PA's siding with an unproven coaching nobody like MS over a former 49er coach and SB winner like Shanny and Holmgren doesn't. Since when do 49er fans turn on former coaches from the good years???

Between turning on those former 49er coaches and being ok with mediocrity, the state of the fan base (at least in here) has me a bit concerned.

“The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team”

I would agree with that if the downs were stitched together with contending campaigns. But after six straight losing seasons, applying those expectations to the current team would be similar to applying them to the 1979 or 1980 teams before we expected nothing less than a Division Title and a Superbowl run. I simply can't expect that of this years team.

As far as six straight losing seasons being “no reason at all” to make an 8-8 record OK; Really? No reason at all? Would it not be a clear improvement upon which future growth could be built? I’ll answer that . . . Of course. Which is why I believe Singletary should feel “more than” secure for 2010 if we reach 8-8 in 2009 . . . beyond 2010 he shouldn’t feel comfortable unless we’re in the Playoffs. If you want to call that changing tunes be my guest.

Back to Martz? . . . OK.

Obviously his firing was a risky proposition for Singletary. If the 2009 offense under-performs compared to 2008, the question of Martz’ dismissal will be raised again and again. Under Martz in 2008 the offense averaged 311 yards per game (211 Pass/100 Run) which was obviously more than just a tangible improvement over the dismal 237 Yards per Game (145/92) under Hostler in 2007.

The improvement in 2008 under Martz was more modest compared to 2006 under Turner when we averaged 304 Yards per Game (168/136). The obvious difference is the Pass/Run ratio (68/32) vs. (55/45) which is clearly important to Singletary.

Then why was Martz canned? Well I think in addition to Singletary’s stated goal of building an offense around a strong ground game (not what Mad Mike is known for), it’s my theory that given the way Martz fixed the “QB competition” in 2008 he probably poisoned the well as far as long-term coaching interaction with Hill and Smith and made Singletary’s decision to go in another direction fairly easy and almost necessary.

Speaking of numbers, if we return to something closer to Norv Turner's offense, in a perfect world under Jimmy Raye in 2009 I’d like to see improvement in the neighborhood of 340-350 yards per game (210/140).
But...but...if our QB doesn't throw for 300+ yards a game he is a bust.Seriously though,I believe Martz was canned because of not only the JTO debacle,but his inability to use our best player on offense.There is no way a team with Frank Gore should rank 26th in rushing.That,along with his unexplainable desire to constantly run seven step drops when it was obvious to even the casual fans that the line couldn't hold that long.Throw in other things like the chance to win at Philly,against the Pats,and that craziness in Arizona,and Martz being unemployed at this point in time becomes very understandable.I agree with you that if we can return to at least the 2006 offense,with the ball control aspect of it and the pretty good defense,we should be able to have a winning season for the first time in a long time.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

Originally posted by Sabrason:
SNF quote: Through parsing my post you completely ignored the paragrapgh with the central point . . . nice work.

[i][u]SNF Quote: That doesn't mean the franchise or the fan base have accepted mediocrity. It means that the expectation of success needs to be rebuilt from the bottom - up, again through consistent winning and playoff appearances. This team is young and building, and tangible improvement towards creating a new Superbowl or bust mentality should not be dismissed (or abandoned) simply because it wasn't enough of an improvement in the eyes of some or because the coach is a former Bear . . . [/i][/u]

I apologize, please forgive me for ignoring your "central point" which I will now address. A fan's expectation of success does not need to be rebuilt unless it was damaged/diminished in the first place -- which it clearly has with you and many others here. Being "ok with 8-8" simply b/c it would be the best record since 2002 is an example of that.

However, other fans such as myself, Singfan, etc have personally expected the same high standards since the glory days despite the Yorks and team falling well short of that for the last 8-10 years. Our expectations WERE high, ARE high and therefore don't need any rebuilding. The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team.

Of course, the ownership's expectations of success are certainly in need of rebuilding since they have accepted mediocrity for far too long. I'm not sure it even requires a long drawn-out process of "rebuilding" --- you just instantly expect more and do whatever it takes to see those expectations realized. Unfortunately, I don't think the Yorks are capable of that as I see little in the way of them modeling the team after the successful Patriots franchise that was once talked about.


SNF quote: what part of any of my posts suggests anyone should be happy with 8-8 every year?

Quote:
No part of your post suggested you're HAPPY with it, but you did say you were "ok" with it which, after the last decade of failure, no fan should be, IMO. For team expectations to increase i think it first needs to start with the ENTIRE fan base expecting more rather than being "ok" with 8-8 mediocrity simply b/c it would be better than any record they had since 2002. That is no reason at all. As Singfan mentioned, I can sense you changing your tune a little which his good.

Back to my previous question I notice you didn't answer: you want to see "tangible improvement" from MS even if it's only by one game from 7-9 to 8-8. Can't get any less tangible than that but ok. You'd be "ok" with that miniscule improvement enough to support MS and consider his job 'more than safe" with at least that record.

However, the more pronounced "tangible improvement" that you deem to be so important and that Martz orchestrated on offense last year went largely unrecognized and ignored in favor of focusing on isolated minutia that was cited as justification for what was truly an absurd and inappropriate firing. Do you think that was the correct thing to do. I know respected analysts like Jimmy Johnson didn't think so as he did not think Martz deserved to be canned.

I'm left wondering why Martz's faar more pronounced "tangible improvements" were ignored while MS's far less pronounced improvements were embraced and celebrated and will, in all liklihood, continue to be? It doesn't make any sense just as PA's siding with an unproven coaching nobody like MS over a former 49er coach and SB winner like Shanny and Holmgren doesn't. Since when do 49er fans turn on former coaches from the good years???

Between turning on those former 49er coaches and being ok with mediocrity, the state of the fan base (at least in here) has me a bit concerned.

“The expectation of fans is the one thing that can and should remain consistently high regardless of the ups and downs of the team”

I would agree with that if the downs were stitched together with contending campaigns. But after six straight losing seasons, applying those expectations to the current team would be similar to applying them to the 1979 or 1980 teams before we expected nothing less than a Division Title and a Superbowl run. I simply can't expect that of this years team.

As far as six straight losing seasons being “no reason at all” to make an 8-8 record OK; Really? No reason at all? Would it not be a clear improvement upon which future growth could be built? I’ll answer that . . . Of course. Which is why I believe Singletary should feel “more than” secure for 2010 if we reach 8-8 in 2009 . . . beyond 2010 he shouldn’t feel comfortable unless we’re in the Playoffs. If you want to call that changing tunes be my guest.

Back to Martz? . . . OK.

Obviously his firing was a risky proposition for Singletary. If the 2009 offense under-performs compared to 2008, the question of Martz’ dismissal will be raised again and again. Under Martz in 2008 the offense averaged 311 yards per game (211 Pass/100 Run) which was obviously more than just a tangible improvement over the dismal 237 Yards per Game (145/92) under Hostler in 2007.

The improvement in 2008 under Martz was more modest compared to 2006 under Turner when we averaged 304 Yards per Game (168/136). The obvious difference is the Pass/Run ratio (68/32) vs. (55/45) which is clearly important to Singletary.

Then why was Martz canned? Well I think in addition to Singletary’s stated goal of building an offense around a strong ground game (not what Mad Mike is known for), it’s my theory that given the way Martz fixed the “QB competition” in 2008 he probably poisoned the well as far as long-term coaching interaction with Hill and Smith and made Singletary’s decision to go in another direction fairly easy and almost necessary.

Speaking of numbers, if we return to something closer to Norv Turner's offense, in a perfect world under Jimmy Raye in 2009 I’d like to see improvement in the neighborhood of 340-350 yards per game (210/140).

But...but...if our QB doesn't throw for 300+ yards a game he is a bust.Seriously though,I believe Martz was canned because of not only the JTO debacle,but his inability to use our best player on offense.There is no way a team with Frank Gore should rank 26th in rushing.That,along with his unexplainable desire to constantly run seven step drops when it was obvious to even the casual fans that the line couldn't hold that long.Throw in other things like the chance to win at Philly,against the Pats,and that craziness in Arizona,and Martz being unemployed at this point in time becomes very understandable.I agree with you that if we can return to at least the 2006 offense,with the ball control aspect of it and the pretty good defense,we should be able to have a winning season for the first time in a long time.
Agreed.

But I often wonder why, when referring to the Martz firing, how most everyone fails to mention how the constant barrage of turnovers absolutely KILLED US. It is my belief that Martz's flawed gameplan accounted for the majority of those turnovers. I believe that was the major reason why he was fired. I wonder how different our season would have turned out had we been able to hold onto the ball.

I think when Singletary refers to a "ball-control" offense, he means we are going to EXECUTE and NOT TURN THE BALL OVER.

That also may be a big reason why the Dolphins (+17) went from worst to the playoffs in one year.

I don't know about you guys, but I get really f**king pissed when we give away the game.

It's tough to be tough minded when you're turning the ball over and getting sacked over and over.

SNF quote:I would agree with that if the downs were stitched together with contending campaigns. But after six straight losing seasons, applying those expectations to the current team would be similar to applying them to the 1979 or 1980 teams before we expected nothing less than a Division Title and a Superbowl run. I simply can't expect that of this years team.


See, that's where we differ. I hold the team to the same consistent standard I have for the last quarter century+ while your standard/expectation fluctuates depending on how the team is doing. Mine doesn't. The Yorks love fans like you - no pressure.

SNF quote: As far as six straight losing seasons being “no reason at all” to make an 8-8 record OK; Really? No reason at all? Would it not be a clear improvement upon which future growth could be built? I’ll answer that . . . Of course. Which is why I believe Singletary should feel “more than” secure for 2010 if we reach 8-8 in 2009 . . . beyond 2010 he shouldn’t feel comfortable unless we’re in the Playoffs. If you want to call that changing tunes be my guest.

Ehhhh!! Sorry, going from 7-9 to 8-8 would absolutely not be a sign of "clear improvement" and I'm utterly shocked that in this day and age some fans are now willing to consider ONE GAME something to hang their support on...lol Secondly, in no way should MS be made to feel "more than safe" with that record. As I've said before, numerous teams have hovered in the 7-9/8-8 area for years without improvement so it's got to be at least 10-6 IMO to be considered something to build on.





SNF quote: Back to Martz? . . . OK. Obviously his firing was a risky proposition for Singletary. If the 2009 offense under-performs compared to 2008, the question of Martz’ dismissal will be raised again and again. Under Martz in 2008 the offense averaged 311 yards per game (211 Pass/100 Run) which was obviously more than just a tangible improvement over the dismal 237 Yards per Game (145/92) under Hostler in 2007.

Exactly, risky is an understatement yet you and many other fans called for Martz's head on a silver platter?? With proven SB winning OC's pretty rare around the league, a guy like Martz does not come around very often so, for all of his faults, the niners were lucky to have him and will most likely pay dearly for letting him go. MS was/is not even qualified to fire a guy like Martz -- it was an inappropriate thing to have him do and a completely dysfunctional situation.

Now, I'm not saying that Martz didn't have his shortcomings or didn't make some mistakes but I certainly didn't think they outweighed the drastic tangible improvement we all witnessed. Overall, when something works you stick with it and, as JJ eluded to, MS and Martz were working well together and succeeding during the second half of the season so why fire him. No OC anywhere else in the league would be fired after orchestrating that kind of improvement.

As far as JTO was concerned, based on the facts at the time, he was the correct choice before the start of the season whether he was favored by Martz or not. This is basic common sense regardless of qb or team -- you go with the guy who knows the system the best. Anyone who knows anything agrees with that.

While JTO eventually went downhill in part b/c of his mistakes, the poor OL had a lot more to do with his demise than most here would like to admit. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that, in addition to pulling JTO, MS absolutely ripped into the OL and OL coach for their horrible lack of protection of JTO shortly after he took over (his greatest contribution as interim HC, IMO) . Something that Hill ultimately benefited from since OL improved enough to allow Martz's system to work properly and propel Hill to be the highest rated qb in the league for most of the second half of the season. That was no coincidence.


SNF quote: The improvement in 2008 under Martz was more modest compared to 2006 under Turner when we averaged 304 Yards per Game (168/136). The obvious difference is the Pass/Run ratio (68/32) vs. (55/45) which is clearly important to Singletary.

What's your point - that Martz deserved to be fired b/c his tangible improvement was more modest than Turner's? That's no reason and is ridiculous. You compare a coach to the previous coach he was hired to replace which was Hostler NOT Turner.

Of course it wasn't going to be difficult for Martz to eclipse the horrendous offense of 2007 but so what, he still did it. Came right in, plugged in his system, did what he was hired to do (despite some very difficult circumstances and a few mistakes) and how was he rewarded -- by being fired.


SNF quote: Then why was Martz canned? Well I think in addition to Singletary’s stated goal of building an offense around a strong ground game (not what Mad Mike is known for), it’s my theory that given the way Martz fixed the “QB competition” in 2008 he probably poisoned the well as far as long-term coaching interaction with Hill and Smith and made Singletary’s decision to go in another direction fairly easy and almost necessary.

Considering that Gore gained over 1,000yds for the third straight season even in Martz's offense makes the argument that Martz ignores the running game absurd. I think Marshall Faulk would agree. I believe Martz's ideal pass/run ratio in his system is a very balanced 5.5/4 which I think is substantiated by Faulk's success under him years ago and Gore's 1,000+ yds last season.

Martz didn't "fix" any qb competition...again, he chose the best guy at the time, the guy that knew his system the best -- there is no arguing this point whether he favored JTO or not. That's who any OC would and should choose. Smith wasn't even a remote choice and I believe Hill admitted to being well behind JTO in knowledge of the system early on until he watched JTO run it for the first half of the season. I need not remind you that before OL broke down and JTO went south, he was gunslinging like no tomorrow and leading our SEVENTH RANKED offense early on. A fact that, again is ignored and overlooked. Therefore, I understood why Martz chose him despite what ultimately occurred.


SNF quote: Speaking of numbers, if we return to something closer to Norv Turner's offense, in a perfect world under Jimmy Raye in 2009 I’d like to see improvement in the neighborhood of 340-350 yards per game (210/140).

As far as I'm concerned, Raye must field an offense superior to that of Martz's or it will confirm what common sense tells me and most -- that his firing was a huge mistake. I don't really care how Raye's offense stacks up against Turner's b/c Raye is not replacing Turner - he's replacing Martz.

Conveniently, as I mentioned several weeks ago, since the Raye hire no fan has dared claim that Raye will field a statistically superior offense to Martz's which I find comical considering that is why coaches are suppose to be fired and hired -- to IMPROVE upon what was there previously. Comparing resumes, Raye never did and does not seem to have what it takes to outperform Martz but I hope he proves me wrong.