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Finally, a writer calls out Sing's crappy philosophy

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  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,140
Originally posted by kray28:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Philly game 39 pass 18 rush
Atl game 32 pass 22 rush
NO game 32 pass 22 rush

^12 turnovers lost by a combined 8 points.

Here’s a philosophy hold on to the damn football

Why not add some intelligent analysis to the boxscore summary (which proves crap since it tells nothing about the order of plays as they were called)?

Could the higher number of pass plays be related to the 49ers scrambling into hurry/spread/pass only mode when the run-run-pass method used for most of the game took them nowhere but into a late deficit to climb out of?


Somebody should break down the film. My guess is a lot of passes occur during the two minute drill before the first half and whenever we are down by more than two scores. I seem to see a very high percentage of running plays early in the game and when we are ahead. That is just an observation watching each game once and not taking notes, I could be wrong. I can almost guess when we will run or pass based on the situation, which is not good.
Originally posted by binary2nd:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by Giggidy:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Philly game 39 pass 18 rush
Atl game 32 pass 22 rush
NO game 32 pass 22 rush

^12 turnovers lost by a combined 8 points.

Here’s a philosophy hold on to the damn football

Exactly. I don't know any philosophy, strategy, or tactics that could work if our turnovers remain high.

The turnovers have occurred mostly on short passes and on runs.

.

This goes without saying, some people just don't get it. When you built your Offense around short passes and long drives, it makes it a lot easier for defenders to cheat and clog passing lanes, and also to tip balls. Also, the amount of third and longs we put our QBs in is startling, it's an obvious passing down where very few QB perform well. We led the league in third and long situations last year. It all goes back to playcalling and strategy.

I think its a really confused issue.

For example, I don't think its all the coordinators fault, nor is it all the quarterbacks fault; but rather, it is intertwined. When all the receivers are running deeper routes, Alex Smith has no choice but to throw a deeper pass, but when he is given the choice of, for example, 2 short routes, but only 1 deep route, he usually goes with the short route. So I think the reason Smith does so well in the spread shotgun offense, is because most of his options are long routes, and he is sort of forced into making the longer throw.

The other issue is less tangible. Smith looks much better when he has just completed a couple of passes in a row, he gets better and better with each completed throw. This is because he gets into a "rhythm." There is really no concrete way to explain what a "rhythm" is, but it is there; the same concept exists in all sports actually.
For example, a basketball player who is on a shooting hot streak needs to keep shooting to stay in his rhythm. If they don't keep feeding him the ball, he will not be able to maintain his rhythm.

Smith is a rhythm player, who needs to feel the game in a continuous flow. This makes it tougher for Gore to get as many carries as he would like, but I don't think this make Gore any less effective or any less important. Like the author pointed out in the article, Gore's best runs came after a sequence of completed passes which kept the defense on their heels, rather than their toes. When a defensive player is getting ready for a play, he is usually focusing his effort on the run or the pass as primary. He can't focus on both equally. If he tries to focus on both equally, then the offense has an advantage because either the run or the pass will surprise him just the same.

This can get rather complicated to try and explain technically. But the point is, like in any game, such as poker for example, you want to try and create patterns that put FEAR into your opponent. Running or passing X% of the time is not the right way to think about it.
If Alex Smith passing can put FEAR into the opponent from the beginning of a game, then Gore will become MUCH more effective throughout the entire game, but if we wait until the end of the game to unleash Smith, the other team will keep its focus on Gore because he has the reputation and Smith does not.

The most important point by far of course, is to do what WORKS.
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by kray28:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Philly game 39 pass 18 rush
Atl game 32 pass 22 rush
NO game 32 pass 22 rush

^12 turnovers lost by a combined 8 points.

Here’s a philosophy hold on to the damn football

Why not add some intelligent analysis to the boxscore summary (which proves crap since it tells nothing about the order of plays as they were called)?

Could the higher number of pass plays be related to the 49ers scrambling into hurry/spread/pass only mode when the run-run-pass method used for most of the game took them nowhere but into a late deficit to climb out of?


Somebody should break down the film. My guess is a lot of passes occur during the two minute drill before the first half and whenever we are down by more than two scores. I seem to see a very high percentage of running plays early in the game and when we are ahead. That is just an observation watching each game once and not taking notes, I could be wrong. I can almost guess when we will run or pass based on the situation, which is not good.

The one thing that is not mentioned in that passing/running statistic, is the fact that most of those passing plays were either short routes, drop back routes, or they were designed screen plays.

It looks like we "pass" a lot. But it is irrelevant that we officially "pass" X% of the time. What is relevant, is that Smith is at his best in the shotgun spread offense. An offense which is much different from dropping back into the pocket and throwing a designed screen. Smith is very good at executing screen plays, but this does not mean half our plays should be screen plays. Smith might be good at screen plays, but he is BEST at the shotgun spread offense.
Even more pertinent were Madden's comments...saying yelling at your players isn't coaching. There's a sound old management philosophy...praise in public and counsel in private. I realize the NFL's a very emotional game...but berating your players in front of teammates isn't the way to coach. Hats off to Vernon for supporting Alex...and convincing him to stand up to Singletary. I think it was long overdue. Still, I agree w/Madden, who knows a thing or two about coaching in the NFL.
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by kray28:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Philly game 39 pass 18 rush
Atl game 32 pass 22 rush
NO game 32 pass 22 rush

^12 turnovers lost by a combined 8 points.

Here’s a philosophy hold on to the damn football

Why not add some intelligent analysis to the boxscore summary (which proves crap since it tells nothing about the order of plays as they were called)?

Could the higher number of pass plays be related to the 49ers scrambling into hurry/spread/pass only mode when the run-run-pass method used for most of the game took them nowhere but into a late deficit to climb out of?


Somebody should break down the film. My guess is a lot of passes occur during the two minute drill before the first half and whenever we are down by more than two scores. I seem to see a very high percentage of running plays early in the game and when we are ahead. That is just an observation watching each game once and not taking notes, I could be wrong. I can almost guess when we will run or pass based on the situation, which is not good.

Another point to make on this.

Why can't we just keep it SIMPLE? We run all kind of complex pulling and trapping plays in order to confront the criticism that we "dive up the middle" all the time. But again, changing up the complexity and timing of the running plays is not relevant to the reasons we struggle running the ball in the first place.

We struggle running the ball because the opponent is afraid of our run but not our pass. This has been the case for years.
It was pointed out in the article that Gore is more effective after we have completed a couple of passes in a row. So why not establish what the other team is NOT afraid of first, THEN go back to the run? That way the other team starts the game on their heels.

I don't know why Singletary is not confronted on this by the other coaches. I can almost swear Mike Johnson is aware of the things I am saying. Perhaps he doesn't know how to explain it to Singletary?

Johnson calls a great game when the leash is taken off in the 4th quarter. But just like last year, WHY wait until the 4th quarter to remove the leash? I say remove the leash in the 1st quarter, and pass the WHOLE 1st quarter. Then the other team will not know what the heck to expect the rest of the game. Maybe we could then run the ball down their throats if they have been scared of the pass enough?

This team is walking on eggshells with Singletary lurking in the background.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,140
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Even more pertinent were Madden's comments...saying yelling at your players isn't coaching. There's a sound old management philosophy...praise in public and counsel in private. I realize the NFL's a very emotional game...but berating your players in front of teammates isn't the way to coach. Hats off to Vernon for supporting Alex...and convincing him to stand up to Singletary. I think it was long overdue. Still, I agree w/Madden, who knows a thing or two about coaching in the NFL.

You can't rip into your quarterback in front of god and everybody and then expect him to be a leader. Who is going to look up to a guy the coach humiliates in front of everyone?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by excelsior:
Look at the results that McDaniel is getting out of Orton in Denver. Pretty impressive. Orton had not particularly impressed anyone before. Coaching, gameplans, and playcalling matter.

So true! Its like the saying "old dogs can't learn new tricks" and Sing just refuses to adjust to his players strengths instead of the other way around.

Not true! Take a look at Ortons' starts 19 through 34 (2008 with the Bears) his second full season as a starter.

Orton played very well. He has above average ability.

He also played well in his rookie year (for a rookie). This was all while in CHI, one of the worst offensive teams during that time.

McDaniels nabbed him going into his 3rd full year as a starter, the year that QB's arrive into the NFL.


Yeah i wished we had orton. No matter what we do at the end of the season Alex has to go period. He is just a losing QB. Even if we some wind up winning the division Alex will still need to go. Im tired of wasting talent becuase of the QB. I was one that changed my mind last yr. i actually thought Alex had turn a new leaf. But that one looks the same as the other side. I feel sorry for sing cuz he tied his future to Alex and Alex let him down. Oh well.
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by excelsior:
Look at the results that McDaniel is getting out of Orton in Denver. Pretty impressive. Orton had not particularly impressed anyone before. Coaching, gameplans, and playcalling matter.

So true! Its like the saying "old dogs can't learn new tricks" and Sing just refuses to adjust to his players strengths instead of the other way around.

Not true! Take a look at Ortons' starts 19 through 34 (2008 with the Bears) his second full season as a starter.

Orton played very well. He has above average ability.

He also played well in his rookie year (for a rookie). This was all while in CHI, one of the worst offensive teams during that time.

McDaniels nabbed him going into his 3rd full year as a starter, the year that QB's arrive into the NFL.


Yeah i wished we had orton. No matter what we do at the end of the season Alex has to go period. He is just a losing QB. Even if we some wind up winning the division Alex will still need to go. Im tired of wasting talent becuase of the QB. I was one that changed my mind last yr. i actually thought Alex had turn a new leaf. But that one looks the same as the other side. I feel sorry for sing cuz he tied his future to Alex and Alex let him down. Oh well.

yea because Singletary getting fired at the end of the season is all Alex's fault wow you haters really have no sense of reality at all. The defense is allowing an average over 20 points per game. Yet the losses are all on Smith.
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by excelsior:
Look at the results that McDaniel is getting out of Orton in Denver. Pretty impressive. Orton had not particularly impressed anyone before. Coaching, gameplans, and playcalling matter.

So true! Its like the saying "old dogs can't learn new tricks" and Sing just refuses to adjust to his players strengths instead of the other way around.

Not true! Take a look at Ortons' starts 19 through 34 (2008 with the Bears) his second full season as a starter.

Orton played very well. He has above average ability.

He also played well in his rookie year (for a rookie). This was all while in CHI, one of the worst offensive teams during that time.

McDaniels nabbed him going into his 3rd full year as a starter, the year that QB's arrive into the NFL.


Yeah i wished we had orton. No matter what we do at the end of the season Alex has to go period. He is just a losing QB. Even if we some wind up winning the division Alex will still need to go. Im tired of wasting talent becuase of the QB. I was one that changed my mind last yr. i actually thought Alex had turn a new leaf. But that one looks the same as the other side. I feel sorry for sing cuz he tied his future to Alex and Alex let him down. Oh well.

Orton did worse than Alex in a conservative Offense, with a better OC. Orton is only thriving because he is in a spread/shotgun style Offense with McDaniels.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
This can get rather complicated to try and explain technically. But the point is, like in any game, such as poker for example, you want to try and create patterns that put FEAR into your opponent. Running or passing X% of the time is not the right way to think about it.

I agree...the PC-thing is to preach "balance." F balance. Give me an OC who watches and studies film and KNOWS ever weakness of the opposition and exploits those with his play calling (game planning, practice execution until perfect, scrpted plays, in-game and half-time adjustments, flow, rhythm plays, etc.)...sort of like what every OC/DC facing us has done this year. If a team is very weak in run defense let's run the ball 60 times. If the team is weak against the pass, let's pass 60 times. And then counter with some surprises mixed in there. F balance...get me good coaching!
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Giggidy:
Originally posted by 9erfan4life:
Philly game 39 pass 18 rush
Atl game 32 pass 22 rush
NO game 32 pass 22 rush

^12 turnovers lost by a combined 8 points.

Here’s a philosophy hold on to the damn football

Exactly. I don't know any philosophy, strategy, or tactics that could work if our turnovers remain high.

Singeltary is not fumbling the balls muffing punts and tipping passes for the INT.
No, but in practice, instead of just practicing running the ball, they should pay more attention to details. I seen teams turn this around, we surely are not.
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by excelsior:
Look at the results that McDaniel is getting out of Orton in Denver. Pretty impressive. Orton had not particularly impressed anyone before. Coaching, gameplans, and playcalling matter.

So true! Its like the saying "old dogs can't learn new tricks" and Sing just refuses to adjust to his players strengths instead of the other way around.

Not true! Take a look at Ortons' starts 19 through 34 (2008 with the Bears) his second full season as a starter.

Orton played very well. He has above average ability.

He also played well in his rookie year (for a rookie). This was all while in CHI, one of the worst offensive teams during that time.

McDaniels nabbed him going into his 3rd full year as a starter, the year that QB's arrive into the NFL.


Yeah i wished we had orton. No matter what we do at the end of the season Alex has to go period. He is just a losing QB. Even if we some wind up winning the division Alex will still need to go. Im tired of wasting talent becuase of the QB. I was one that changed my mind last yr. i actually thought Alex had turn a new leaf. But that one looks the same as the other side. I feel sorry for sing cuz he tied his future to Alex and Alex let him down. Oh well.

yea because Singletary getting fired at the end of the season is all Alex's fault wow you haters really have no sense of reality at all. The defense is allowing an average over 20 points per game. Yet the losses are all on Smith.

Since Sing's firing is inevitable, he should step back, be a cheerleader, and let the coaches that will be here next year control their own units.

[ Edited by TheCatch on Oct 13, 2010 at 20:19:11 ]
Originally posted by Ninerswin49:
When did the Zone lose its class...I have been a fan of the niners since just before the John Brodie days. Even in some of the darkest days, I dont remember the niner fans being ugly. These are truly dark days for the niners, but do we have to lose our history of being a proud franchise in the process? We may be the joke of the NFL, but even in this dark period, I am hopeful that this group of Niners will succeed, yes, even our current ownership and coach. GO NINERS!

The proud days ended when the Yorks bought the team
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by excelsior:
Look at the results that McDaniel is getting out of Orton in Denver. Pretty impressive. Orton had not particularly impressed anyone before. Coaching, gameplans, and playcalling matter.

So true! Its like the saying "old dogs can't learn new tricks" and Sing just refuses to adjust to his players strengths instead of the other way around.

Not true! Take a look at Ortons' starts 19 through 34 (2008 with the Bears) his second full season as a starter.

Orton played very well. He has above average ability.

He also played well in his rookie year (for a rookie). This was all while in CHI, one of the worst offensive teams during that time.

McDaniels nabbed him going into his 3rd full year as a starter, the year that QB's arrive into the NFL.


Yeah i wished we had orton. No matter what we do at the end of the season Alex has to go period. He is just a losing QB. Even if we some wind up winning the division Alex will still need to go. Im tired of wasting talent becuase of the QB. I was one that changed my mind last yr. i actually thought Alex had turn a new leaf. But that one looks the same as the other side. I feel sorry for sing cuz he tied his future to Alex and Alex let him down. Oh well.

The Coach and the Front Office made the difference here...they knew that Jay Cutler was not going to take them where they needed to go...in 6 years??? Our coach and our front office have no idea who will take us where we need to go...
the 49er are 0-5 the Washington redskins are 3-2 the Skins are better at QB and Head Coach. Are they much better any where ells on the team?? I have been saying give Alex Smith and Sig a chance. well they are getting a chance and there not looking to good. I think it's time for a change.
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