Our Defensive Coordinator, Vic Fangio

I'm watching the film right now - most of Manning's passes were out in the 4 second range. Also, we were only bringing 4 most of the game - yes we have 2 OLB's and 3DL, but, we never brought both OLB's unless we were in Nickel with 2 DL. So, we had a 4 man rush all night.....

The problem was, as from what I see on film, that Manning was regularly able to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads. He had clean pockets without any pressure. If we had at least gotten close to him by the time the ball was out, then maybe we throw his rhythm off. But, with that much time, he was gonna carve us up like a turkey on thanksgiving any way you slice it.

Also, Denver did a lot of things formationally to prevent any sort of press coverage because they were stacking receivers or using guys out of the slot in isolation.

Seattle beat Denver in the SB because their pass rush got to Manning in that 3 second clock - which is the only way the physical jam works. If you can't get to the QB in 3 seconds with a jam - you're screwed even worse than we were - I know it's hard to believe, but really, you are.

Originally posted by NCommand:
When you sit back deep in off coverage and allow the QB to throw easy 2-7 passes (near perfect completion night with only 1 real incompletion) AND give up the TDs in the same fashion, you are essentially, playing a prevent-a-win defense against Manning. Like how we scored our only real TD just before the half.

PS: You may want to change your name to defenderFangio or defenderHaRoman or defendergameplan. j/k!

No, you aren't. That's not prevent-a-win. You might want to go look up what a prevent defense is, though. Because that's what you make it sound like we were playing. We play this kind of defense ALL THE TIME.

This defense we play is the kind of defense that has us listed as a top FIVE defense in the league. So nothing's CHANGED. Only thing that has, injuries, and facing the best offense we've faced all season with the best QB we've faced all season, with NO pass rush. Please.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I'm watching the film right now - most of Manning's passes were out in the 4 second range. Also, we were only bringing 4 most of the game - yes we have 2 OLB's and 3DL, but, we never brought both OLB's unless we were in Nickel with 2 DL. So, we had a 4 man rush all night.....

The problem was, as from what I see on film, that Manning was regularly able to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads. He had clean pockets without any pressure. If we had at least gotten close to him by the time the ball was out, then maybe we throw his rhythm off. But, with that much time, he was gonna carve us up like a turkey on thanksgiving any way you slice it.

Also, Denver did a lot of things formationally to prevent any sort of press coverage because they were stacking receivers or using guys out of the slot in isolation.

Seattle beat Denver in the SB because their pass rush got to Manning in that 3 second clock - which is the only way the physical jam works. If you can't get to the QB in 3 seconds with a jam - you're screwed even worse than we were - I know it's hard to believe, but really, you are.

1st bold - And people are saying we should have played press against them when they were in bunched formations, lol.

2nd bold - Might want to explain that to NC. Clearly not getting it. Thinks we can press like Seattle with no pass rush.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I'm watching the film right now - most of Manning's passes were out in the 4 second range. Also, we were only bringing 4 most of the game - yes we have 2 OLB's and 3DL, but, we never brought both OLB's unless we were in Nickel with 2 DL. So, we had a 4 man rush all night.....

The problem was, as from what I see on film, that Manning was regularly able to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads. He had clean pockets without any pressure. If we had at least gotten close to him by the time the ball was out, then maybe we throw his rhythm off. But, with that much time, he was gonna carve us up like a turkey on thanksgiving any way you slice it.

Also, Denver did a lot of things formationally to prevent any sort of press coverage because they were stacking receivers or using guys out of the slot in isolation.

Seattle beat Denver in the SB because their pass rush got to Manning in that 3 second clock - which is the only way the physical jam works. If you can't get to the QB in 3 seconds with a jam - you're screwed even worse than we were - I know it's hard to believe, but really, you are.

I had it clocked at most passes around 3-3.5 seconds but anything under 4 seconds is basically a timing offense and we haven't consistently gotten to the QB under 3 seconds ever...even with Aldon. There were stretches of games last year where the only time we got there under 3 seconds was by bringing the inside MLB blitzes with Bwoman/Willis. I totally disagree that Seattle was getting their pass rush there consistently under 3 seconds...the physical jams allowed them the extra second to get there on many of these occasions, threw off the timing of many routes and forced Manning to eat it or throw risky passes. By playing off coverage all night, it was easy to sit back there (at Mannings level) and pick the best of the 3+ options (2nd and 3rd reads) as they ran clean through our secondary. And like I said...I wasn't looking to this "wrinkle" as a primary defense but one we'd use to disrupt timing and throw off Manning some. In many cases, once your jam press is working, you can run blitzes off those or fake and retreat. We played prevent-a-win defense all night IMHO...the perfect defense for Manning and this timing offense.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I'm watching the film right now - most of Manning's passes were out in the 4 second range. Also, we were only bringing 4 most of the game - yes we have 2 OLB's and 3DL, but, we never brought both OLB's unless we were in Nickel with 2 DL. So, we had a 4 man rush all night.....

The problem was, as from what I see on film, that Manning was regularly able to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads. He had clean pockets without any pressure. If we had at least gotten close to him by the time the ball was out, then maybe we throw his rhythm off. But, with that much time, he was gonna carve us up like a turkey on thanksgiving any way you slice it.

Also, Denver did a lot of things formationally to prevent any sort of press coverage because they were stacking receivers or using guys out of the slot in isolation.

Seattle beat Denver in the SB because their pass rush got to Manning in that 3 second clock - which is the only way the physical jam works. If you can't get to the QB in 3 seconds with a jam - you're screwed even worse than we were - I know it's hard to believe, but really, you are.

I'm watching right now too, although in bits and pieces because I'm at work. Notice how well the DEN CBs are sticking to the 49er WRs. Harris and Talib are pretty good. Couple that with how Ware and VMiller were playing and it made sense for DEN to aggressively challenge the 49er WRs. Good point (DX, jonnydel) about how a 4 man pass rush, coupled with good CBs allow press man to work. The 49ers had neither going for them that night.

What's really jumping out to me is the way Manning is able to identify leverage of defenders. It's instinctual for him to see the defender's leverage and know that the route is about to become open based on the direction the WR is about to cut in his route. Uncanny.

NC, you have a point about how playing press is a good change up, but it's not even close to being the end all be all way to play Manning. When he sees press alignment, he dials up the pick plays (rub routes). The key is the 4 man pass rush and when the 49ers couldn't do that, it was game over.

Originally posted by thl408:
I'm watching right now too, although in bits and pieces because I'm at work. Notice how well the DEN CBs are sticking to the 49er WRs. Harris and Talib are pretty good. Couple that with how Ware and VMiller were playing and it made sense for DEN to aggressively challenge the 49er WRs. Good point (DX, jonnydel) about how a 4 man pass rush, coupled with good CBs allow press man to work. The 49ers had neither going for them that night.

What's really jumping out to me is the way Manning is able to identify leverage of defenders. It's instinctual for him to see the defender's leverage and know that the route is about to become open based on the direction the WR is about to cut in his route. Uncanny.

NC, you have a point about how playing press is a good change up, but it's not even close to being the end all be all way to play Manning. When he sees press alignment, he dials up the pick plays (rub routes). The key is the 4 man pass rush and when the 49ers couldn't do that, it was game over.

1. Who are the 4-man rushers outside Brooks and Lynch? Justin and McDonald? Come on...half the time Brooks is dropping back in coverage or edge sealing anyhow, Smith is double teamed, when was the last time you saw McDonald rush?, etc. Clearly, we knew going into this game, and every game, that we're NOT going to be "attacking" the Denver OL banking on a 4-man pass rush expected to consistently get there under 3 seconds. It's not even our game nor the defenders responsibilities of our 3-4 defense. They are to play disciplined, stop the run and eventually get there while the back end shut down the passing game. Sure, "if" we can provide pressure this way, that just makes their job that much simpler but we play just the opposite. There is a reason our slot CB plays 60-90% of the snaps. There is a reason why we play the big nickel the majority of the time...b/c that's our defensive identity. It gives us the best chance to win by clogging up passing lanes and the discipline of the intricate off coverage schemes allows 3 DL and 2 OLB's to eventually get there WHILE staying disciplined defending against the run and mobile QB's.
2. Manning is a stud so I agree, even if we played some jam press, we may have gotten a few "holding" calls or even a P.I. or two (hell, we got them anyway wrapping up receivers that ran clean off the LOS and past them anyhow) but at least you are forcing the hand and are giving yourself a chance. If they clearly are destroying us with this style and we're down 21 instantly like vs. the off coverage game plan, then OK, time to switch it up!
3. I love the rub routes. Dial that $%^&* up! It's no different than a screen. I'd dare them to try to rub out Brock, Cox, Cook (prior to the injury) Reid, Bethea, Brooks and Lynch sliding over against jam press. With their WR's it would be like watching Kyle Williams out on the edge trying to block out for VD/Boldin. Disaster!

PS: I'm glad you understand that I wasn't calling for jam press as a primary defense but one we'd try early and stick with if it worked. Our offense is completely predicated on what the defense does. We could have dictated the same way here and force their hand. That's all.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I'm watching the film right now - most of Manning's passes were out in the 4 second range. Also, we were only bringing 4 most of the game - yes we have 2 OLB's and 3DL, but, we never brought both OLB's unless we were in Nickel with 2 DL. So, we had a 4 man rush all night.....

The problem was, as from what I see on film, that Manning was regularly able to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads. He had clean pockets without any pressure. If we had at least gotten close to him by the time the ball was out, then maybe we throw his rhythm off. But, with that much time, he was gonna carve us up like a turkey on thanksgiving any way you slice it.

Also, Denver did a lot of things formationally to prevent any sort of press coverage because they were stacking receivers or using guys out of the slot in isolation.

Seattle beat Denver in the SB because their pass rush got to Manning in that 3 second clock - which is the only way the physical jam works. If you can't get to the QB in 3 seconds with a jam - you're screwed even worse than we were - I know it's hard to believe, but really, you are.

I'm watching right now too, although in bits and pieces because I'm at work. Notice how well the DEN CBs are sticking to the 49er WRs. Harris and Talib are pretty good. Couple that with how Ware and VMiller were playing and it made sense for DEN to aggressively challenge the 49er WRs. Good point (DX, jonnydel) about how a 4 man pass rush, coupled with good CBs allow press man to work. The 49ers had neither going for them that night.

What's really jumping out to me is the way Manning is able to identify leverage of defenders. It's instinctual for him to see the defender's leverage and know that the route is about to become open based on the direction the WR is about to cut in his route. Uncanny.

NC, you have a point about how playing press is a good change up, but it's not even close to being the end all be all way to play Manning. When he sees press alignment, he dials up the pick plays (rub routes). The key is the 4 man pass rush and when the 49ers couldn't do that, it was game over.

That's been my point as well. You have to get after Manning with a 4 man rush - that's the key. For us, Manning was getting the ball out, but, we still weren't even close. He could've had 5 seconds all night long. You have to at least get close to the guy and start to make him rush some throws or reads.

Tony Dungy said it before the game when asked what he would give as advice to slow Manning down. He said, "I'll give you a hint, get pressure on Peyton with only 4 guys consistently". It wasn't the press or disrupt the timing. Manning's throws weren't a lot of timing routes against zone coverage. Like Thl said, it's about his ability to read leverage pre/post snap and get the ball to the right guy. He's probably the best there's ever been at this. The teams that have had the most success against Manning have always had the pass rush as the common denominator.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerG94:
The 49ers secondary was getting beat deep while playing off coverage and playing 7 or 8 in coverage most of the time. I don't want to imagine how bad the beating would have been had the DB's been playing press man coverage the whole time. Would have been ugly. With a pass rush it might have been different but I'm not convinced any of our corners can man up on any of Denver ' s wr's regardless of a good pass rush.

They got beat one time deep on the immediate TD by Thomas on Cox and Bethea right after the CK INT IIRC. They got beat b/c Thomas was lined up outside (again, IIRC) and had a free and clean release and was able to beat Cox and a late-arriving Bethea. And you're right...that magical < 3 second pass rush would have instantly allowed our off coverage DB's to come up and make INT's all day.

Pass rush helps BOTH off AND man. It helped vs. Atlanta, all out blitz, you don't have an interception really if Brock is not playing off allowing him to attack the WR. (Brock still wasn't the same in this game, not the same Brock). Off coverage allows you to to make those pick 6's he made vs. the Texans, etc etc. Pass rush would help with man as well. You are straight up delusional if you think you can play jam/press man with no pass rush.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
That's been my point as well. You have to get after Manning with a 4 man rush - that's the key. For us, Manning was getting the ball out, but, we still weren't even close. He could've had 5 seconds all night long. You have to at least get close to the guy and start to make him rush some throws or reads.

Tony Dungy said it before the game when asked what he would give as advice to slow Manning down. He said, "I'll give you a hint, get pressure on Peyton with only 4 guys consistently". It wasn't the press or disrupt the timing. Manning's throws weren't a lot of timing routes against zone coverage. Like Thl said, it's about his ability to read leverage pre/post snap and get the ball to the right guy. He's probably the best there's ever been at this. The teams that have had the most success against Manning have always had the pass rush as the common denominator.

If you believe this, then next time we'll have to resort to a 4-3 defense and rush Aldon/Lynch as DE's and throw in Smith/Williams and Dial/Carradine inside. B/c there is no way we're ever going to get their consistently under 3 seconds from our base 3-4 even with Lynch/Brooks and Aldon, Willis and Bowman, Justin and McDonald all on the field at the same time. No way. I don't think you guys are being realistic here on this one.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:
I'm watching right now too, although in bits and pieces because I'm at work. Notice how well the DEN CBs are sticking to the 49er WRs. Harris and Talib are pretty good. Couple that with how Ware and VMiller were playing and it made sense for DEN to aggressively challenge the 49er WRs. Good point (DX, jonnydel) about how a 4 man pass rush, coupled with good CBs allow press man to work. The 49ers had neither going for them that night.

What's really jumping out to me is the way Manning is able to identify leverage of defenders. It's instinctual for him to see the defender's leverage and know that the route is about to become open based on the direction the WR is about to cut in his route. Uncanny.

NC, you have a point about how playing press is a good change up, but it's not even close to being the end all be all way to play Manning. When he sees press alignment, he dials up the pick plays (rub routes). The key is the 4 man pass rush and when the 49ers couldn't do that, it was game over.

1. Who are the 4-man rushers outside Brooks and Lynch? Justin and McDonald? Come on...half the time Brooks is dropping back in coverage or edge sealing anyhow. Clearly, we knew going into this game, and every game, that we're NOT going to be "attacking" the Denver OL banking on a 4-man pass rush expected to consistently get there under 3 seconds. It's not even our game nor the defenders responsibilities of a 3-4 defense. They are to play disciplined, stop the run and eventually get there while the back end shut down the passing game. Sure, "if" we can provide pressure this way, that just makes the job of the secondary that much simpler. But there is a reason our slot CB plays 60-90% of the snaps. There is a reason why we play the big nickel the majority of the time...b/c that's our defensive identity. It gives us the best chance to win by clogging up passing lanes and the discipline of the intricate off coverage schemes allows 3 DL and 2 OLB's to eventually get there WHILE staying disciplined defending against the run and mobile QB's.
2. Manny is a stud so I agree, even if we played some jam press, we may have gotten a few "holding" calls or even a P.I. or two (hell, we got them anyway wrapping up receivers that ran clean off the LOS and past them anyhow) but at least you are forcing the hand and are giving yourself a chance. If they clearly are destroying us with this style and we're down 21 instantly like vs. off coverage, then OK, time to switch it up.
3. I love the rub route. Dial that $%^&* up! It's no different than a screen. I'd dare them to try to rub out Brock, Cox, Cook (prior to the injury) Reid, Bethea, Brooks and Lynch sliding over against jam press. With their WR's it would be like watching Kyle Williams out on the edge trying to block out for VD/Boldin. Disaster! PS: I' glad you understand that I wasn't calling for jam press as a primary defense but one we'd try early and stick with if it worked.

Since DEN's base package is 1rb/1te/3wr it makes all the sense in the world to play nickel. Brooks is not dropping back in this package, he is rushing the QB as a DE in a 3 point stance in most cases, if not all. So yes, the 4 man rush is Brooks/Lynch/Justin.RayMac and that was not good enough. The 49ers were not in a 3-4 most of the night so Brooks and Lynch's assignments were not typical of a 3-4 OLB, since they were in nickel. Watch the game again if you don't believe me.

I am a bit unclear what you mean by the bolded. Are you suggesting that the 49ers were rushing 5 most of the time? When the 49ers are in nickel, there are only 2 DL in the game along with 2 OLBs that are in a three point stance.

It's not called the big nickel. The "big nickel" is when an additional safety gets into the game for a 4DL/2LB/2CB/3Safety look. Coined the big nickel by Nolan. The 49ers do not use this. They are in a traditional nickel package personnel with 3CBs and 2 safeties.

No doubt about it, our defense got taken to the wood shed by Denver.

Fangio had a bad game. The defense had a bad game.

But, this was only one game in a 16 game season.

Where we are at after 16 games it what really counts.

Fangio has done a pretty good job so far in his time with the 49ers.

Originally posted by thl408:
Since DEN's base package is 1rb/1te/3wr it makes all the sense in the world to play nickel. Brooks is not dropping back in this package, he is rushing the QB as a DE in a 3 point stance in most cases, if not all. So yes, the 4 man rush is Brooks/Lynch/Justin.RayMac and that was not good enough. The 49ers were not in a 3-4 most of the night so Brooks and Lynch's assignments were not typical of a 3-4 OLB, since they were in nickel. Watch the game again if you don't believe me.

I am a bit unclear what you mean by the bolded. Are you suggesting that the 49ers were rushing 5 most of the time? When the 49ers are in nickel, there are only 2 DL in the game along with 2 OLBs that are in a three point stance.

It's not called the big nickel. The "big nickel" is when an additional safety gets into the game for a 4DL/2LB/2CB/3Safety look. Coined the big nickel by Nolan. The 49ers do not use this. They are in a traditional nickel package personnel with 3CBs and 2 safeties.

Oh I believe you! But no reasonable DC is going to expect Lynch/Brooks/McDonald/Justin to get there consistently under 3 seconds...hell, 4 seconds even...ever. That would be game suicide. Hell, replace Aldon with Brooks and it's still not happening. If you guys want to run the defense the same way Seattle did or how the Giants did when they beat the Pats in the Superbowl, you'll have to play a very different style of defense...a 4-3 and have dymanic pass rushers as DE's and esp. if you have a great rotation like Seattle had and bring it every down...you'll also want one big-body inside to stuff the run and another pass rushing interior DT. Even then, you're still not getting there under 3 seconds. You'll still probbly want to play jam press or at least tighter at the LOS with the WR's hopiing to add an extra second for your pass rushers to get there. Unfortunately, that's not our base defense nor our personnel.

I used the wrong term...correct, the "big" part of the "big nickel" is when we pull Willis off the field (b/c Bowman is a bit better in coverage). The fact remains that we're heavier in the backend in numbers and personnel and rely on off coverage schemes to generate "coverage sacks" while the front end thwarts the run, first and foremost. It's just a difference in defensive philosophy.

Originally posted by buck:
No doubt about it, our defense got taken to the wood shed by Denver.

Fangio had a bad game. The defense had a bad game.

But, this was only one game in a 16 game season.

Where we are at after 16 games it what really counts.

Fangio has done a pretty good job so far in his time with the 49ers.

Agreed x5! The good news is we don't play another "timing offense" with a good veteran QB at the helm like this again, until, say, the Gianats (new WCO) and the Chargers?

Originally posted by NinerG94:

The 49ers secondary was getting beat deep while playing off coverage and playing 7 or 8 in coverage most of the time. I don't want to imagine how bad the beating would have been had the DB's been playing press man coverage the whole time. Would have been ugly. With a pass rush it might have been different but I'm not convinced any of our corners can man up on any of Denver ' s wr's regardless of a good pass rush.

Yes, their WR's were playing awesome that night. It seemed none of our corners could stop them at all. The fake screen fooled Reid and our Rush was just not good enough and consistent enough to throw Mannings timing and rhythm off. They called a great offensive game, and caught Fangio's defense with it's pants down several times. I think the fact that Willis was out was a big key, because he's the QB of the defense and makes the defensive calls. Who was out there for the defense were two very young players who didn't know how to adjust the defense to what Manning was doing. Not really a lot of things you can do on defense when your defensive captain is out and you stick in there two really young and inexperienced players to call the defensive adjustments.

Originally posted by REB4:

Originally posted by defenderDX:

yeah, good luck playing press vs. those receivers. we're not Seattle.

Oh you mean it could have been worst? LOL, nothing could have been worst then last night...looked like the Raiders, lol. I don't know about you, but if I am going to lose, I'd rather go out swinging and trying to win, rather then play to not lose by too much.

If you are talking about blitzing, Peyton will kill you if you blitz him. Really, the best game plan is for your offense to outscore their offense, and for your defense to do their best to slow him down. The Anquan drop, and the missed field goal were mistakes that really made us one dimensional at the half, and once that happened - with a QB like that, it's tough to come out of that with a win. You don't stop a Peyton Manning offense, you just hope to slow it down.