NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by jonnydel:
In that case, then we have to differ on the root cause.

To me, when I see a QB miss a read against cover 4 when the defense showed, pre-snap, a 4 shell look and stayed in that look post snap and the QB never looks to the side of the play to beat a cover 4 and has an open TE - it's not a system issue.

When you have plays that are called at the right time against the right defense and the players don't get it - it wouldn't matter who the play caller is, it's not going to work. I don't see anything that the top offenses in the league do - system wise, that we don't. I see us get good calls(not all the time) and the players fail.

When you see that on the film - how can I, in any way, say that if we had a different play caller the play would work??? If we had Mike McCarthy calling the exact same play as we did, is that going to change how well the players execute??

That is totally understandable. But I think where dissenting opinions occur is what brought about that play? Was it a 2nd or 3rd and long because of a questionable play call before that?

I think the different view points are comparing macro and micro "play economics." Within any specific play the fault will be on the players and the battles they win or lose, but within a series as a whole can you still blame just the players when they are seemingly put in positions with minimal chances to succeed through scheme or play design? I look at a play like SJ missed block which killed one red zone opportunity… that was a completely unrealistic play design dependent on every player winning their individual battle in the redzone where that rarely if ever happens.

There are undoubtedly plays left on the field by our QB, WRs, TEs and RBs… and its easy to diagnose errors on a play by play basis by looking at individual battles. But when does it become something more than that? At what point does it go from individual errors to scheme or design, that is what posters are debating. Some see another bad 3rd down play by the QB, others are still wondering WTF that play call was on 1st and 2nd…

Let see the throw to Lloyd and Davis and that will probably show that Roman and Harbs made good calls but Kap failed to get it to where the receiver could catch it.

Originally posted by Giedi:
jonnydel for his future film breakdowns

thl408 for all his hard work.

Thanks for being patient with us webzoners who feel very strongly about the team. I think everybody here respects and appreciates all the hard work you do to post these film breakdowns up. At least I do.

I can't express enough appreciation for the work jonnydel and thl408 do for the zone. I usually just spectate, but the tone of many on this thread is appalling.

I understand with disagreeing with someone's observation, but these two will back that up with cutups and dissecting plays. I don't consider that bias at all but arguing a point. Those who disagree can do the same thing to prove their observations.

I appreciate this thread and the work you guys do. I respect your observations and am glad that you dissect plays to further back up your observations.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I had to stop reading. I respect the work you and thl do here but there is a very obvious bias and agenda here to be taken too seriously at this juncture.

Riiight, just because we don't grab a pitchfork to join your "fire Roman" mob, we have a bias and an agenda. If you missed it, just above I said that there was a play, and I have already seen more plays, where I don't like the play design/call. This isn't the first, nor the last time that I have called out the coaches. I don't fully agree that it's all on Kap either, but that doesn't mean jonnydel has a bias. If anything he is one of the most objective posters on this forum. You know what's bias? Seeing the punt coverage unit take the field and bumping the Fire Roman thread. Hang on NC, you will get to see cut ups that will make you wett as I put the coaches on blast. It will come in due time.

I should not have tied you into that comment but fans see you both, as one. I know you've worked very hard on branching out and looking not at just the end results, but context and big picture and association of events that lead to a fail or success of such still shots/gifs. I respect that. You know that.

And nobody was out with a pitch fork after year 1...a few after the Superbowl, a few put theirs down d/t the WR personnel excuse but now, the pitch forks are out in full force for a reason. It's been 4 years now, under 2 different QB's, with incredible talent on offense and WE'VE REGRESSED.

So yes, forgive the fans who see CK, the WR's, the OL in pass protection, mental lapses, concentration issues, perpectual patterns as the end result of a piss poor offensive philosophy, poor coaching and lack of attention to detail, little to no accountability, etc.

Some would have you believe that if you put Peyton Manning in this offense, we'd suddenly be a top 5 offense. Fine. That's great. Some fans here would say if you put Manning in this offense, he'd be physically carted off on a stretcher afte week 2 (meaning CK makes this offense even move forward).

But if you're going to claim objectivity, you need to show it. I know even the biggest anti-HaRoman fans will at least admit when CK effs up, a RB failed in pass protection, the OL struggled, bone-headed penalties, TO's, etc, cost us.

Some of the posts in here have tried to balance this out with context but, ironically, have been completely ignored.

How about we start with every first down play given that we're still 30th in the league on first down production puting our entire offense against the 8-ball on 2nd and 3rd downs.

It's like jonnydel and I are being shamed because we don't blast the coaches enough. Yet when we say over and over that it is a collective fail from everyone on offense, it falls on deaf ears. When we show a player fail, feel free to expand and tell us why the position coach did a poor job. Why can't Boone and Iupati pick up stunts? Why can't VD and Crabs catch the ball? Blame the appropriate coach. If you want to make it convenient and blame the OC, go a couple steps further and blame the guy that hired the guy that brought on this coaching staff.

How about you buy NFL Rewind and show me what I fail to show.

Not at all. You two are probably the most respected posters on this site right now no matter what school of thought you come from. You've earned that. Do you think ANYONE likes to bash HaRoman? Well, maybe pasodoc and cciowa. LOL. j/k. Sort of.

And one does not NEED NFL Rewind to review series of events; sequence of plays. I provided that in these threads several times...what I liked about the play calling series and what I didn't. Isn't THAT objective? Yet, this is the part that falls on deaf ears with the pro-HaRoman crowd in here. Numerous examples of context, series of plays, perpetual negative patterns, etc...all ignored.

If we're going to talk objectivity here, you've gone on record yourself saying that 50% of the offensive woes are d/t CK. That would fall under jonnydel's perspective as well. So naturally, that's how this thread spins. And that's fine! But, what about the rest of the crowd that feels CK isn't being put in position to succeed? Where are those stills/gifs? Where is that context?

If we're going to talk offense, let's talk offense. What do you two make of this...and please, ALL, chime in as well. Jonnydel and thl have provided a forum for us all. So let's discuss this offense objectively.

First down issues and predictability remain salient. This stat points to offensive play selection (mostly running on first downs) so you can eliminate CK from fault, OL pass protection and TE and WR issues. OL run blocking is our strength as is Gore/Hyde/Miller.

Saints Game:
2nd and 4 at NO 4 (13:05) (Shotgun) F.Gore left end for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P.Dawson extra point is GOOD, Center-K.Nelson, Holder-A.Lee.
2nd and 10 at SF 32 (10:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin (C.White).
2nd and 5 at 50 (8:44) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 12 at NO 33 (7:15) C.Kaepernick pass short middle to V.Davis to NO 25 for 8 yards (R.Bush). Pass 5, YAC 3
2nd and 8 at NO 18 (5:12) (Shotgun) PENALTY on NO-J.Jenkins, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at NO 18 - No Play.
2nd and 10 at SF 23 (1:29) (Shotgun) M.Ingram left tackle to SF 21 for 2 yards (C.Borland).
2nd and 1 at SF 25 (14:19) B.Miller right guard to SF 28 for 3 yards (B.Deaderick).
2nd and 17 at SF 21 (12:38) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to A.Boldin (K.Lewis).
2nd and 10 at SF 40 (8:24) F.Gore right guard to SF 44 for 4 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 12 at NO 48 (6:12) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep middle to A.Boldin to NO 25 for 23 yards (R.Bush). Pass 18, YAC 5
2nd and 10 at NO 46 (2:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore left guard to NO 45 for 1 yard (R.Humber).
2nd and 8 at SF 24 (14:17) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to B.Miller.
2nd and 9 at SF 44 (12:52) F.Gore left tackle to 50 for 6 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (7:44) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 15 for 4 yards (R.Humber; C.White). Pass -1, YAC 5
2nd and 6 at NO 40 (6:13) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to B.Cooks to NO 45 for 5 yards (C.Culliver). Pass -2, YAC 7
2nd and 7 at SF 26 (2:09) C.Kaepernick pass short right to F.Gore to SF 28 for 2 yards (R.Humber). Pass -4, YAC 6
2nd and 10 at SF 17 (12:12) C.Kaepernick pass short left to M.Crabtree to SF 23 for 6 yards (R.Humber). Pass 4, YAC 2
2nd and 4 at SF 38 (10:06) C.Kaepernick right end pushed ob at SF 43 for 5 yards (K.Vaccaro).
2nd and 6 at SF 47 (8:48) F.Gore right guard to SF 49 for 2 yards (J.Jenkins).
2nd and 10 at SF 22 (1:43) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin to SF 28 for 6 yards (C.Lofton). Pass 5, YAC 1 The Replay Official challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin (C.Lofton). The Saints called timeout, and the officals chose to REVIEW the play, with the result that the previous play was REVERSED. After the reversal, the Saints were given their timeout back.
2nd and 10 at NO 27 (1:00) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin.
2nd and 8 at NO 38 (13:45) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to K.Stills to NO 43 for 5 yards (P.Cox). Pass 5, YAC 0
2nd and 5 at SF 47 (12:11) M.Ingram right tackle to SF 43 for 4 yards (C.Borland; M.Wilhoite).
2nd and 1 at SF 44 (9:52) C.Hyde right guard to SF 47 for 3 yards (C.Jordan).
2nd nd 10 at SF 47 (8:31) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree.

Of the 25 2nd downs we had this game here is the breakdown:
17 times 25 times of >7 to go averaging 10.6 yards left to go

Giant's Game:
2nd and 5 at SF 25 (6:18) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 18 at SF 41 (4:08) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie). PENALTY on NYG-D.Rodgers-Cromartie, Defensive Pass Interference, 35 yards, enforced at SF 41 - No Play.
2nd and 17 at NYG 17 (1:52) (Shotgun) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 13 for 4 yards (J.McClain, J.Hankins).
2nd and 2 at SF 47 (14:35) F.Gore right end ran ob at NYG 37 for 16 yards (Q.Demps).
2nd and 1 at NYG 28 (13:43) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 29 for -1 yards (M.Kiwanuka, J.McClain).
2nd and 11 at NYG 24 (11:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep middle to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 7 at NYG 26 (7:46) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to V.Davis.
2nd and 8 at SF 17 (3:57) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep left to M.Crabtree to SF 42 for 25 yards (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 11 at SF 41 (2:24) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd.
2nd and 10 at SF 41 (12:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore right end to NYG 48 for 11 yards (J.McClain, A.Rolle).
2nd and 9 at SF 33 (6:11) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 41 for 8 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at NYG 43 (3:59) (Shotgun) F.Gore up the middle to NYG 38 for 5 yards (M.Patterson, M.Herzlich).
2nd and 10 at NYG 38 (3:05) (Shotgun) C.Hyde up the middle to NYG 34 for 4 yards (M.Herzlich, J.Hankins).
2nd and 7 at SF 49 (:43) (No Huddle, Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short right to R.Jennings (C.Borland).
2nd and 6 at NYG 40 (14:25) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis
2nd and 8 at SF 23 (9:15) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin pushed ob at SF 30 for 7 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at SF 38 (7:22) (Shotgun) C.Hyde left tackle to SF 39 for 1 yard (A.Rolle).
2nd and 2 at SF 10 (4:05) F.Gore right guard to SF 13 for 3 yards (J.McClain, D.Kennard).
2nd and 9 at SF 25 (2:34) F.Gore right tackle to SF 27 for 2 yards (A.Rolle, M.Kuhn).
Only 19 2nd down opportunities this game:
12 of the 19 times of >7 yards to go averaging 10.4 yards to go

30th in the league in first down production for the season. Only the Lions and Raiders are worse.
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-yards-per-first-down-attempt/2014/


Playing with only 2 downs and behind the 8-ball. It's hard to do...

My personal opinion is that those are just rehashed stats that don't mean much if not taken into context - down distance, opposing defensive formation look, and offensive personnel groupings. Saying Colin failed on first down - without much more than the above, really isn't saying much, in my opinion.

I think jonnydel and thl and several others with access to the all 22 film give a much deeper look at each play, and a much more precise view of exactly what happened and why, and probably draw a much more accurate conclusion (not necessarily right or wrong) but a much deeper analysis than just looking at down and distance on a given play. In doing so, they give the webzoners a deeper understanding of the the game. Those that don't take the time and effort to understand what they are saying *before* criticising them are losing out on some valuable insights that can be gotten by going through the effort of it. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by GORO:
I believed this was the best thing to do as well! Remember when Anthony Davis pushed around Suh at the goal line. He would probably be a pro bowl guard. And boone is really good at tackle.

I'd argue based on the Rams game last year that Boone is more than just really good at T, but yeah. Seems so obvious. I guess I shouldn't be surprised our coaches haven't made the move. The rest of the criticisms outlined in the OP are kind of weak.

Need more leadership? What? Get out of here with that subjective nonsense please.
Manning's receivers would be nothing without him? (At least 2, possibly 3 pro bowlers with or without Manning)
GB's OL has been garbage for years? Wells was a pro bowl C, their current C is playing like a pro bowler, Sitton has been an elite guard for years and Bulaga has been good when healthy.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Thank you!!!

I'm sorry if we don't tend to show enough of the coaches failing. You want to know one reason why??? Because it's not the cause of most of our play fails.....

Here's an excerpt from my OP

"The passing game: To me, the passing game was very sub-par this game. There were definite plays to be made, but, for one reason or another we didn't execute. For all the talk and work that was put into the passing game this year, it was very disappointing to watch. In the end - this falls squarely on the shoulders of CK. In the last thread I gave a scouting report on CK for the past few years - from what I see. In that, I mentioned that CK is one of those "2 steps forward, 1 step back" kind of QB's in his development. This was a "1 step back" game. What frustrated me the most was our inability to execute plays and throws that we've done probably hundreds of times.Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/180298-giants-coaches-film-analysis/#UBjue6Jvu6RbXJky.99"

Note how I intentionally put these statements in here. This is my opinion - I'm quantifying that and trying to add it so that everyone knows that everything I say is from what I see. I do not, nor will every claim, to be the know-all, see-all of football. I talk about what I see and if that doesn't jive with what you think I should see or what you want me to see - then you can disagree. As for everyone else who would like to know how I arrived at those conclusions, you'll have to wait until I get internet going again.

Sometimes, the zone is like a bunch of bigfoot hunters who don't go into the wood themselves telling everyone who goes into the woods that don't find bigfoot that they're obviously biased for not seeing bigfoot......

Anyhoo - just venting.......

That's not qualifying your real angle which is the passing game is subpar BECAUSE of CK (and that you have no intentions of looking at other sources, cough, scheme, cough).

Originally posted by jonnydel:
In that case, then we have to differ on the root cause.

To me, when I see a QB miss a read against cover 4 when the defense showed, pre-snap, a 4 shell look and stayed in that look post snap and the QB never looks to the side of the play to beat a cover 4 and has an open TE - it's not a system issue.

When you have plays that are called at the right time against the right defense and the players don't get it - it wouldn't matter who the play caller is, it's not going to work. I don't see anything that the top offenses in the league do - system wise, that we don't. I see us get good calls(not all the time) and the players fail.

When you see that on the film - how can I, in any way, say that if we had a different play caller the play would work??? If we had Mike McCarthy calling the exact same play as we did, is that going to change how well the players execute??

I think we're one of the only teams that never drive the ball into the endzone when in the redzone. TE production non-existent. Running the play call to 01 secs every play at home and every other play on the road, only team I've seen do this. 3rd and long and let's just give up and have Kap roll out to his right and throw it out of bounds. Risk-adverse to the max, with such a great defense makes no sense. If any team should be taking more offensive risks its the team with a stout D that can bail out mistakes. What about the notion that the majority of our TDs are from broken plays and not Romans playcalls? There are so many systemic problems on a macro level that can't possibly be ignored on the coaching level.

My qualms is the overall system not specific plays during specific times (since that will happen to all QBs/Wrs/OL). No team looks similar to us on offense. I've watched every time at least twice this season and last season and before that.

Originally posted by awp8912:

Originally posted by thl408:
It's like jonnydel and I are being shamed because we don't blast the coaches enough. Yet when we say over and over that it is a collective fail from everyone on offense, it falls on deaf ears. When we show a player fail, feel free to expand and tell us why the position coach did a poor job. Why can't Boone and Iupati pick up stunts? Why can't VD and Crabs catch the ball? Blame the appropriate coach. If you want to make it convenient and blame the OC, go a couple steps further and blame the guy that hired the guy that brought on this coaching staff.

How about you buy NFL Rewind and show me what I fail to show.

Week after week you guys are blaming our overall production on micro situations. No ones saying our players didn't stink it up this week. Its been 3-4 years and nothing has changed even though personnel has come and gone. I don't need to watch every down of coaches film to conclude our players failed to execute once again. No ones debating that. What I am saying and others is that this clearly has to be a systemic issue and not an execution lapse week in week out, based on the macro stats these past 3-4 years has shown time and time again.

Understood about the micro situations. I break down plays, rarely drives, never entire games. That's just too time consuming. Sometimes I'll do a series of cutups on a certain situation. I am about to do one on all the 3rd down failures. I understand that someone may say, "but what about 1st and 2nd down"? I simply do not have the time for that as I want to cover a wide variety of subjects. Especially in a 49er victory.

My breakdowns are low level. Anyone here can take these breakdowns and form their own conclusion as to why the coaches have failed the team. Notice how many offensive line breakdowns there are. All those times I show Boone or Iupati failing to pass pro sufficiently. From that, gather that Solari is not up to snuff. Notice the rounded routes that VD runs, and how he and Crabs fail to catch the ball. Take that and say that Mangini and Morton are not up to snuff. When a screen pass is called and the players fail again and again and again. Or when Roman calls a play where he has two slow WRs running straight down the field. Take that and question why Roman even entertains the thought of screen passes with plodding guards or deep bombs with slow WRs. All these player fails that we have documented, take it one level further and ask why aren't these fixed by now? Fill in the blanks. I have never and will never exclusively blame the players or the coaches. It just isn't that simple. So when you see me point out a player fail, ask if you have seen this before and why hasn't it been fixed? From that, you will see that I don't exclude the coaches from blame or have a bias. For those that want more finger pointing at the coaches, I guess I just don't explicitly point it out enough.

I just spent way too much time defending my posting. That was f**kin stupid.

If I sound like I am criticizing you jonnydel and you thl408, I apologise. I'm not trying to sound like a *hole. I am grateful for your breakdowns even though I have coaches film, you guys know more about the x's and o's than me and I appreciate these threads from you guys.

I'm just too frustrated with this offense like everyone else.

Originally posted by Giedi:
My personal opinion is that those are just rehashed stats that don't mean much if not taken into context - down distance, opposing defensive formation look, and offensive personnel groupings. Saying Colin failed on first down - without much more than the above, really isn't saying much, in my opinion.

I think jonnydel and thl and several others with access to the all 22 film give a much deeper look at each play, and a much more precise view of exactly what happened and why, and probably draw a much more accurate conclusion (not necessarily right or wrong) but a much deeper analysis than just looking at down and distance on a given play. In doing so, they give the webzoners a deeper understanding of the the game. Those that don't take the time and effort to understand what they are saying *before* criticising them are losing out on some valuable insights that can be gotten by going through the effort of it. Just my 2 cents.

That's the sole purpose of this thread and what I'm asking them to do; objective casual analysis. To review why we are, essentially, going BACKWARDS on first downs the mass majority of the time (mostly runs stuffed for lost yardage). 30th in the NFL. And this is a perpetual problem I've noted since Harbaugh first arrived under Alex's tenure as well. This is a 4-year issue now and one that is constantly ignored yet, to me, is the biggest factor why the OL can't pass protect, why CK is running for his life, is why we are forced to make something out of nothing (will ourselves to win) on individual ad lib plays, etc. When you're only playing with 2 downs, defenses are in a much better situation to dictate you and pin their ears back and they know they have an extra second to do it b/c you've got 7-20 yards to go! We've still managed to overcome some of this and are 20th in the NFL in total first downs but you can see how one leads to another; series of events.

It's like in golf when you shank a tee-shot. Now you're off in the rough. It doesn't mean you're totally screwed but the probability of making up for it on your next two shots, are dramatically reduced, to get par and even less, birdie.

I came in here for film analysis, not drama.


j/k

Originally posted by Giedi:
jonnydel for his future film breakdowns

thl408 for all his hard work.

Thanks for being patient with us webzoners who feel very strongly about the team. I think everybody here respects and appreciates all the hard work you do to post these film breakdowns up. At least I do.

I concur, I giddily look forward to this thread every week. You guys are amazing and are providing a phenomenal service to us, for free. Frankly, I'd pay money for it. Thanks again.

I am seriously bored with the CK hate...so your great analysis is that our offense is underperforming and what we need is "leadership"? That is your film analysis....sorry bro that line is tedious.

Originally posted by DarthNiner:
I came in here for film analysis, not drama.


j/k

"Onward!" LOL

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by sincalfaithful:

Originally posted by verb1der:
Sorry but how can a QB elevate the play of his oline? Buy them Rolex watches, or give them cookies on the sidelines!?

Can someone give examples?

Kap was supposed to go block for Vernon after handing off the ball to him duh

I mean most teams hand the ball off to their struggling TE instead of their Potential HOF Running back

lol, that was actually pretty creative.

He freaking got a first down on that play...my gosh. It was called back on a hold by our worst OL Boone.

Apparently, to the original poster this play call is also the result of CK's horrible leadership. If CK was only a better lead Boone wouldn't have held and GRO would have made a different call...ridiculous take.