Offseason All22 Film Study

Originally posted by NCommand:

Another interesting tidbit from NN's Sakamoto.

-As we pointed out, the rotations along the defensive front in sub packages are interesting. We aren't allowed to report the specifics, but the 49ers vary their looks with the front seven more in O'Neil's defense than they did under Eric Mangini and Vic Fangio. Those defenses typically replaced the nose tackle with an extra defensive back in those situations. But that's not always the case with this new defense O'Neil is installing.

Pretty sure this is a note from Chris Biderman of Niners Wire. Hate to see a professional journalist get mixed up with a fan blog

Originally posted by kush:

Pretty sure this is a note from Chris Biderman of Niners Wire. Hate to see a professional journalist get mixed up with a fan blog

You're correct. Edited. And thank you.

I've been thinking I'm not too keen on Ward starting outside. Like the slot CB position, it narrows his ability to make plays compared to SS. I'd rather have him and Reid at SS/FS (respectively), Robinson and Johnson outside and Bethea competing with Tartt for the nickel/dime S role where they both can be used more down in the box. Remember, Bethea is an excellent blitzer and when he gets to play near the LOS, his play recognition is top notch. I could see him thriving there some 50-66% of the snaps.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Been thinking I'm not too keen on Ward starting outside. Like the slot CB, it narrows his ability to make plays compared to FS. I'd rather have him and Reid at FS/SS, Robinson and Johnson outside and Bethea competing with Tartt for the nickel/dime S role where they both can be used more down in the box. Remember, Bethea is an excellent blitzer and when he gets to play near the LOS, his play recognition is top notch. I could see him thriving there some 50-66% of the snaps.

Even if Ward is the best CB on the roster, I want to see him get snaps at safety so that he can eventually make his home there. This is a development year so use it for that and let him learn at safety. I like Bethea, but if the tradeoff is to get Bethea on the field in exchange for holding back Ward at safety, I rather just sit Bethea. The counter argument is that CB is more important than safety in JoN's scheme so put the best players at the important positions. Still, I rather look long term and see what he can do at safety. If it ends up Ward can't handle safety, then at that point put him back at CB.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Been thinking I'm not too keen on Ward starting outside. Like the slot CB, it narrows his ability to make plays compared to FS. I'd rather have him and Reid at FS/SS, Robinson and Johnson outside and Bethea competing with Tartt for the nickel/dime S role where they both can be used more down in the box. Remember, Bethea is an excellent blitzer and when he gets to play near the LOS, his play recognition is top notch. I could see him thriving there some 50-66% of the snaps.

Even if Ward is the best CB on the roster, I want to see him get snaps at safety so that he can eventually make his home there. This is a development year so use it for that and let him learn at safety. I like Bethea, but if the tradeoff is to get Bethea on the field in exchange for holding back Ward at safety, I rather just sit Bethea. The counter argument is that CB is more important than safety in JoN's scheme so put the best players at the important positions. Still, I rather look long term and see what he can do at safety. If it ends up Ward can't handle safety, then at that point put him back at CB.

I feel the same, truly. I mean, it IS super early, so giving him a try there could be nothing more than seeing if he can do it for various packages. I didn't even have Bethea on my projected (super early) 53 but after listening to O'Neil, he seems pretty enamored with him and understandably so. If you are going to lean on man/press CB's outside you better have very smart S's. And his talk-up on Ray-Ray Armstrong was interesting as well b/c he was a former S and can cover and play ILB. My gut tells me that O'Neil is coming in with a fresh set of eyes and mixing and matching and seeing what everyone can do and can't do. I'm sure he had some preconceived notions but he's about to find out, many of these players are pretty versatile. But at some point, they are going to have to find a home position.

Ward must have the talent to become a full time corner, because it makes little sense to make him a corner than pick up his 5th year option and pay more than a 5th year option for a safety. Baalke is good at saving York Money

Originally posted by GORO:

Ward must have the talent to become a full time corner, because it makes little sense to make him a corner than pick up his 5th year option and pay more than a 5th year option for a safety. Baalke is good at saving York Money

LOL, what? CB would cost more than a S whether as a FA or Franchise Tag. Neither has anything to do with a 5th year option.

Originally posted by GORO:

Ward must have the talent to become a full time corner, because it makes little sense to make him a corner than pick up his 5th year option and pay more than a 5th year option for a safety. Baalke is good at saving York Money

At the point of just making stuff up now? pretty sad way of trying to bash York for being cheap.

Originally posted by thl408:
Even if Ward is the best CB on the roster, I want to see him get snaps at safety so that he can eventually make his home there. This is a development year so use it for that and let him learn at safety. I like Bethea, but if the tradeoff is to get Bethea on the field in exchange for holding back Ward at safety, I rather just sit Bethea. The counter argument is that CB is more important than safety in JoN's scheme so put the best players at the important positions. Still, I rather look long term and see what he can do at safety. If it ends up Ward can't handle safety, then at that point put him back at CB.

Doesn't matter. Experienced CBs can transition to safety. If he's one of the top 2 CBs we need him on the outside. And coaches are not going to sacrifice a year to "development" it's their ass on the line.

Originally posted by Trath44:

Originally posted by thl408:
Even if Ward is the best CB on the roster, I want to see him get snaps at safety so that he can eventually make his home there. This is a development year so use it for that and let him learn at safety. I like Bethea, but if the tradeoff is to get Bethea on the field in exchange for holding back Ward at safety, I rather just sit Bethea. The counter argument is that CB is more important than safety in JoN's scheme so put the best players at the important positions. Still, I rather look long term and see what he can do at safety. If it ends up Ward can't handle safety, then at that point put him back at CB.

Doesn't matter. Experienced CBs can transition to safety. If he's one of the top 2 CBs we need him on the outside. And coaches are not going to sacrifice a year to "development" it's their ass on the line.

Good points. With this group of safeties, I can see why putting him at CB makes sense. Just get him on the field. We don't even know if he's a good safety and Bethea/Reid should win the safety spots. Ward has had one game as a starter at safety. I just wanted to see him at safety because if he's smart and rangy, that's a game changer. Maybe next year. Whatever makes the most sense for that logjam at defensive back.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by GORO:

Ward must have the talent to become a full time corner, because it makes little sense to make him a corner than pick up his 5th year option and pay more than a 5th year option for a safety. Baalke is good at saving York Money

LOL, what? CB would cost more than a S whether as a FA or Franchise Tag. Neither has anything to do with a 5th year option.

If we pick up Wards 5th year option his salary will be based on which position he plays 50% or more this year. For example Reid's 5th year option will pay him about 5.7 million. For cornerbacks drafted 11-32 in 2013 their salary would be about 8 million. So depending on what position Ward mostly plays this year will determine what amount he will be payed if we were to pick up his option in 2018.
I think that's what the OP was trying to say anyways.

Originally posted by Luckycharms:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by GORO:

Ward must have the talent to become a full time corner, because it makes little sense to make him a corner than pick up his 5th year option and pay more than a 5th year option for a safety. Baalke is good at saving York Money

LOL, what? CB would cost more than a S whether as a FA or Franchise Tag. Neither has anything to do with a 5th year option.

If we pick up Wards 5th year option his salary will be based on which position he plays 50% or more this year. For example Reid's 5th year option will pay him about 5.7 million. For cornerbacks drafted 11-32 in 2013 their salary would be about 8 million. So depending on what position Ward mostly plays this year will determine what amount he will be payed if we were to pick up his option in 2018.
I think that's what the OP was trying to say anyways.

My apologies to the OP if that's what he hasn't. Yeah, Ward adjust plays, roughly 67% of the snaps now in the nickel/dime.

This article was posted in the Baalke thread, but I wanted to include it here because it's telling of how JoN wants to do things.

http://m.sfgate.com/49ers/article/49ers-DC-O-Neil-on-rookie-CBs-You-love-7949776.php
"I'll take five good corners if we can get them," O'Neil said. "You can't have enough cover guys. If you have guys that can go out and stay on an island, it just opens up the playbook and allows you to do much more. You don't want to have to protect your corners. It's easier to protect other guys. You start protecting corners, you lighten yourself up in the run game and can have other issues."

Here's an example of what JoN has done when he has confidence in his CB. This is from 2014 when Hayden was healthy and playing well. I think this type of coverage was done a lot in NYJ with a prime Revis - 'Revis island' - when NYJ was would roll coverage away from Revis and give additional help to other areas of the field, depending on Revis to lock down his WR without help.


Blue safety rotates away from Hayden to help on the other side of the field. Hayden on an island with no safety help.


Also notice how the ILBs handle the drag route with pattern matching (orange).

Leaving the CB on an island with a single deep safety is easier to understand, but with cover 2 looks very agressive and need a lot of confidence on the corner.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Been thinking I'm not too keen on Ward starting outside. Like the slot CB, it narrows his ability to make plays compared to FS. I'd rather have him and Reid at FS/SS, Robinson and Johnson outside and Bethea competing with Tartt for the nickel/dime S role where they both can be used more down in the box. Remember, Bethea is an excellent blitzer and when he gets to play near the LOS, his play recognition is top notch. I could see him thriving there some 50-66% of the snaps.

Even if Ward is the best CB on the roster, I want to see him get snaps at safety so that he can eventually make his home there. This is a development year so use it for that and let him learn at safety. I like Bethea, but if the tradeoff is to get Bethea on the field in exchange for holding back Ward at safety, I rather just sit Bethea. The counter argument is that CB is more important than safety in JoN's scheme so put the best players at the important positions. Still, I rather look long term and see what he can do at safety. If it ends up Ward can't handle safety, then at that point put him back at CB.

I feel the same, truly. I mean, it IS super early, so giving him a try there could be nothing more than seeing if he can do it for various packages. I didn't even have Bethea on my projected (super early) 53 but after listening to O'Neil, he seems pretty enamored with him and understandably so. If you are going to lean on man/press CB's outside you better have very smart S's. And his talk-up on Ray-Ray Armstrong was interesting as well b/c he was a former S and can cover and play ILB. My gut tells me that O'Neil is coming in with a fresh set of eyes and mixing and matching and seeing what everyone can do and can't do. I'm sure he had some preconceived notions but he's about to find out, many of these players are pretty versatile. But at some point, they are going to have to find a home position.

Two things to the both of ya


1....Yup

2....Hoping O'Neil don't get cute