Offseason All22 Film Study

Originally posted by Giedi:
Another way is speed receivers. Guys with blazing speed that DB's just don't want get behind them. That was my pet peeve with Baalke, he spent draft capital on defense (which was fine) but when he had the chance to open up Harbaugh's passing game by getting a top flight speed receiver with good hands, he passed up on that and picked up junk like A J. Jenkins. DB's tend to give a lot of cushion to good speed receivers, that opens up the passing lane to the Z receivers and the TE. If A.J. Jenkins was at least as serviceable as J.J. Stokes, we'd have won that super bowl. Harbaugh would still be coaching, Colin would still be our QB.

Yeah, the only speed guys we had were Ginn but then we never used him in that fashion...only for ST. Carolina did a much better job of utilizing the 'threat' of his speed for underneath routes off him and then started incorporating him more and more into the actual offense to keep DB's honest. Randy Moss...same exact concept. Jenkins was supposed to be similar but a total flop. What a waste (for him and us).

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'm betting next year Kyle will try to get a Julio Jones for his offense in the draft.

The Julio Jones of the world come around once every decade, if that.

And there's no Julio Jones in next year's class.

You are probably right. But I think you'd be surprised how open WR's can get if you have a good strong run game. Having said that, I'd be happy with a Ed McCaffrey kind of WR that can add depth to the Z position. Dude was 6'5" and 215-220 Lbs and had great hands, OK speed. I don't think you need a freak like Julio to make Kyle's offense work, but it sure would be more explosive with Julio than with Ed.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Another way is speed receivers. Guys with blazing speed that DB's just don't want get behind them. That was my pet peeve with Baalke, he spent draft capital on defense (which was fine) but when he had the chance to open up Harbaugh's passing game by getting a top flight speed receiver with good hands, he passed up on that and picked up junk like A J. Jenkins. DB's tend to give a lot of cushion to good speed receivers, that opens up the passing lane to the Z receivers and the TE. If A.J. Jenkins was at least as serviceable as J.J. Stokes, we'd have won that super bowl. Harbaugh would still be coaching, Colin would still be our QB.

Yeah, the only speed guys we had were Ginn but then we never used him in that fashion...only for ST. Carolina did a much better job of utilizing the 'threat' of his speed for underneath routes off him and then started incorporating him more and more into the actual offense to keep DB's honest. Randy Moss...same exact concept. Jenkins was supposed to be similar but a total flop. What a waste (for him and us).

I'm betting Marquis will play the speed role for Kyle. His speed should scare DB's to make more room for the Garcon. I wish we hand more depth at these positions though. Any injury to Marquis will make Garcon's job that much harder.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Another way is speed receivers. Guys with blazing speed that DB's just don't want get behind them. That was my pet peeve with Baalke, he spent draft capital on defense (which was fine) but when he had the chance to open up Harbaugh's passing game by getting a top flight speed receiver with good hands, he passed up on that and picked up junk like A J. Jenkins. DB's tend to give a lot of cushion to good speed receivers, that opens up the passing lane to the Z receivers and the TE. If A.J. Jenkins was at least as serviceable as J.J. Stokes, we'd have won that super bowl. Harbaugh would still be coaching, Colin would still be our QB.

Yeah, the only speed guys we had were Ginn but then we never used him in that fashion...only for ST. Carolina did a much better job of utilizing the 'threat' of his speed for underneath routes off him and then started incorporating him more and more into the actual offense to keep DB's honest. Randy Moss...same exact concept. Jenkins was supposed to be similar but a total flop. What a waste (for him and us).

I'm betting Marquis will play the speed role for Kyle. His speed should scare DB's to make more room for the Garcon. I wish we hand more depth at these positions though. Any injury to Marquis will make Garcon's job that much harder.

No question about it. A.Robinson has some good 4.43 speed as well and he knows this offense already. But there's no mistaking why Goodwin was brought in. His job, will be to back off the DB's and allow our underneath receivers (higher % passing) to work their magic. It also sounds like Goodwin is working hard on adding to his route tree too so that he can be much more than just a threat/decoy. It would be fun to watch him run some 9 routes along the sidelines, comebacks and then BAM, post route for a TD (all set up by his own routes and dinking and dunking prior to that sucking up the LB's and S's).

Originally posted by NCommand:
No question about it. A.Robinson has some good 4.43 speed as well and he knows this offense already. But there's no mistaking why Goodwin was brought in. His job, will be to back off the DB's and allow our underneath receivers (higher % passing) to work their magic. It also sounds like Goodwin is working hard on adding to his route tree too so that he can be much more than just a threat/decoy. It would be fun to watch him run some 9 routes along the sidelines, comebacks and then BAM, post route for a TD (all set up by his own routes and dinking and dunking prior to that sucking up the LB's and S's).

Wow, Adrick Robinson is physically impressive, and was very productive for Kyle last year. 4.3 would definitely push DB's back. Thanks for the info and thank god we have other WR's with speed other than Goodwin.

Had Freeman made his block or anything close to a block, Robinson would've sealed the Super Bowl

Originally posted by TheNef77:
Had Freeman made his block or anything close to a block, Robinson would've sealed the Super Bowl

Yup, Kyle even noted that sack as the game changer. When their RB1 went down and Freeman had to step in, the running game stalled and then crucial penalties, that sack, defense couldn't make one single stop, etc. Just an unreal unfolding of events for the Pats to pull off that miracle.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
No question about it. A.Robinson has some good 4.43 speed as well and he knows this offense already. But there's no mistaking why Goodwin was brought in. His job, will be to back off the DB's and allow our underneath receivers (higher % passing) to work their magic. It also sounds like Goodwin is working hard on adding to his route tree too so that he can be much more than just a threat/decoy. It would be fun to watch him run some 9 routes along the sidelines, comebacks and then BAM, post route for a TD (all set up by his own routes and dinking and dunking prior to that sucking up the LB's and S's).

Wow, Adrick Robinson is physically impressive, and was very productive for Kyle last year. 4.3 would definitely push DB's back. Thanks for the info and thank god we have other WR's with speed other than Goodwin.

Yeah, no worries! Kyle even noted that when Julio was out of the lineup, it was Aldrick that went in for him on the outside. So having someone (like Garcon) who really understands this offense is going to help a lot. Pierre interviewed and said how much speed they have and how that is opening up things underneath per design. Now they just need to get their timing down with Hoyer. It's an important element...but like Pierre said, we have to use them deep in order for the threat to work. Nice to hear Robinson is working hard on that route tree.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, the only speed guys we had were Ginn but then we never used him in that fashion...only for ST. Carolina did a much better job of utilizing the 'threat' of his speed for underneath routes off him and then started incorporating him more and more into the actual offense to keep DB's honest. Randy Moss...same exact concept. Jenkins was supposed to be similar but a total flop. What a waste (for him and us).

torrey

In all of Kyle's offenses, Vonta Leach (HOU) and Mike Sellers (WAS) were the only FBs to reach 20 catches in a season. No FB has had more than 20 in Kyle's offenses. I watched all of Patrick DiMarco's (ATL) catches and they were nearly all on checkdown type of throws. There were a couple instances (like 2) in all of 2015 and 2016 where he was lined up wide and made a catch, but the clear majority of DiMarco's catches were on checkdowns when Matt Ryan had gone through his progressions.

So if Kyle is going to pay Juice all this money, is it just for checkdowns? That's not being an 'Offensive Weapon'. I checked out how BAL used Juice and it was not at all how Kyle used DiMarco. Flaco did use Juice as a checkdown option, and I'd say half of his catches were on checkdowns, but BAL also used him on screen passes to feature him. He was also a part of route combinations meaning he was a part of the progression read of a route concept, not just a checkdown option.

Here's a couple instances where Juice's number was called for a screen pass. How many teams run screens for their FB?
This is 1st & 20 in a close game


Juice fakes the pass block, then will release.


That's Zuttah out in space for the 1v1 block (blue). Look at all that open area to run. But the pass is overthrown. The playcall is the takeaway here as the FB gets his number called.




Misdirection screen to Juice. We know Kyle Shanahan loves misdirection.


That sneaky FB.


Here's a fancy screen pass dialed up for Juice.


Juice runs an angle route out of the backfield. What's crazy is every WR and TE is blocking for him. This is just a dressed up screen pass.


3rd & 9 and this is the playcall? Get your FB the ball? It worked.


Few route combinations are going to include the FB, but BAL used Juice in this manner. Here's the old school WCO, Spot concept. Progressions will vary depending on the playbook, but the Flat route (Juice) is a part of the progression read. When a CB follows the WR in motion across the formation, the QB gets a clue it's man coverage. Yellow LB has the man assignment on Juice.


Red runs a pick on the yellow LB, who is supposed to cover Juice.


+22


More Spot. This is against Quarters.


QB targets Juice and he is not supposed to do much with this pass because blue DB should come downhill to make this tackle. It's zone, defenders are seeing this and should rally to stop the FB.


Juice beats the angle and scores.


Juice has shown the ability to take a short pass and do more than the typical FB in terms of RAC yards.




Typical FBs don't....


Don't sleep on the FB.


I watched only a bit of his lead blocking ability and he seems okay. I wouldn't say he's a punishing battering ram. He hits his block consistently, just doesn't knock the linebacker backwards. Seems to mostly stalemate, which is still getting the job done. I'll wait to see how he lead blocks as a 49er. He has good hands, showing an ability to reach out and corral passes that are away from his body. I didn't watch his blitz pickup ability (hard to find those plays).

Most teams use a scatback as their 3rd down back for the elusiveness in the open field. BAL used Juice as a 3rd down back which is unorthodox. It's up to Kyle to feature Juice and call his number. Kyle has never drawn up plays for his FB the way BAL drew up plays for Juice. It's a copycat league so we can be sure some of these types of plays will be installed into the 49er playbook. Maybe some Spider 2Y Banana? While I doubt Juice is going to be the focus of any offensive gameplan, calling his number 3-4 times a game will keep defenses honest and can net some safe yards on short passes.

Speaking of FB catches. The coolest catch by a FB was when Tom Rathman caught a FB Out and Up from Steve Young for a touchdown in a rainy game at Miami. He dives to catch the ball and does a dolphin wiggle slide into the endzone.lol
Jerry Rice tied Steve Largent's TD reception record that day also. I have the complete game on vhs haha

You can see the catch in this video starting at 1:30

Here was probably our biggest FB-centric pass play in our hey day. These are from 1994.

Texas style plays


And the offshoot of the Texas/angle route (FB whip/arrow route)


In each case the FB was the first progression.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

No question about it. A.Robinson has some good 4.43 speed as well and he knows this offense already. But there's no mistaking why Goodwin was brought in. His job, will be to back off the DB's and allow our underneath receivers (higher % passing) to work their magic. It also sounds like Goodwin is working hard on adding to his route tree too so that he can be much more than just a threat/decoy. It would be fun to watch him run some 9 routes along the sidelines, comebacks and then BAM, post route for a TD (all set up by his own routes and dinking and dunking prior to that sucking up the LB's and S's).

Wow, Adrick Robinson is physically impressive, and was very productive for Kyle last year. 4.3 would definitely push DB's back. Thanks for the info and thank god we have other WR's with speed other than Goodwin.

Yeah, no worries! Kyle even noted that when Julio was out of the lineup, it was Aldrick that went in for him on the outside. So having someone (like Garcon) who really understands this offense is going to help a lot. Pierre interviewed and said how much speed they have and how that is opening up things underneath per design. Now they just need to get their timing down with Hoyer. It's an important element...but like Pierre said, we have to use them deep in order for the threat to work. Nice to hear Robinson is working hard on that route tree.

We aren't big, but if we are fast? Fine by me. So good to hear the speed guys are seeing in our WRs. When we've had speed before, we didn't use it. Now is a fine time to begin.

Those texas routes are damn near unstoppable. Would love to see the juice run some of those patterns.

Originally posted by SoCold: Speaking of FB catches. The coolest catch by a FB was when Tom Rathman caught a FB Out and Up from Steve Young for a touchdown in a rainy game at Miami. He dives to catch the ball and does a dolphin wiggle slide into the endzone.lol
Jerry Rice tied Steve Largent's TD reception record that day also. I have the complete game on vhs haha

You can see the catch in this video starting at 1:30

Originally posted by Niners816:
Here was probably our biggest FB-centric pass play in our hey day. These are from 1994.

Texas style plays

And the offshoot of the Texas/angle route (FB whip/arrow route)

In each case the FB was the first progression.

It's crazy to think Rathman had 73 catches in a season. And for 8.4 ypc, so he's moving the ball. Wish I knew what I was watching back then. No FB will ever get 73 catches in today's game, no way.

I don't think I saw Juice make a catch on a Texas concept. Maybe just don't remember but if so it wasn't many times. It's too good a play not to use. Easy throw, chance for 4+ yards. Against a Cover1 blitz it can go big. Kyle will for sure get his RBs running some angle/arrow routes.
He'll use the angle route in a Follow concept too:
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/181749-offseason-all22-film-study/page51/#post752

Hyde can do some things with the ball. Texas vs Cover1 blitz