Offseason All22 Film Study

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Doesn't it fall under the 5 yard chuck rule since the ball wasn't in the air until after the contact was complete and done with?

Hmm. I thought the rule is 1 yard beyond the line scrimmage, can't block a defender. Unless the pass is targeted behind the line of scrimmage. Juice straight up put a lead block on that LB 2 yards beyond the LoS.

It is 1 yard. That should have been a penalty but the LB disengaged quickly so it wasn't much of a "block." Lucky that wasn't called though.

Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

I was thinking that too. The timing is cutting it close, and really relies on the LB "buying" the play fake and getting all the way to the LOS. If he doesn't (like in the play highlighted), then the FB has to be aware and not make contact. Or just bulldoze the LB 3 yards downfield like Juice did lol.

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

I was thinking that too. The timing is cutting it close, and really relies on the LB "buying" the play fake and getting all the way to the LOS. If he doesn't (like in the play highlighted), then the FB has to be aware and not make contact. Or just bulldoze the LB 3 yards downfield like Juice did lol.

I wonder if the refs are more lenient on those plays. I would think we'd see it called more often if they were being strict.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

I was thinking that too. The timing is cutting it close, and really relies on the LB "buying" the play fake and getting all the way to the LOS. If he doesn't (like in the play highlighted), then the FB has to be aware and not make contact. Or just bulldoze the LB 3 yards downfield like Juice did lol.

I wonder if the refs are more lenient on those plays. I would think we'd see it called more often if they were being strict.

I can't remember ever seeing it called between the tackles on play action like that. It's usually only when a WR is blocking downfield on a screen pass. Maybe that's why Juice just went for it.

Kyle calls the typical RB screens, no need to show those, but he also has ways to get the RB to the edge as part of his screen game. I remember a 2017 presser where Kyle was asked if he used the passing game as an extension of the running game, and like typical Kyle fashion, he gave a detailed answer. Paraphrasing, he said that when he calls swing screens and bubble screens, that was his idea of, 'passing game as an extension of the run game'.
This swing screen is the type of play he's referring to.
FB in the slot reveals a zone look from the defense. Cover3


Juice motions into the backfield. Kyle is trying to draw attention to the center of the formation.


Right before the snap, the RB motions out of the backfield. This is simply a dressed up screen pass to the RB, with the WRs blocking for him.


Playaction on the FB dive draws in the box defenders to isolate the 3v3 matchup on the wide side of the field.


Easy +10. Is this really a pass or just a really long handoff? Passing game as an extension of the run game.


Kyle also ran bubble screens to a RB in the slot, which put pressure on the WRs to block at the point of attack. WRs in Kyle's offense have mentioned the importance that Kyle puts on his WRs to block well.
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There were a good number of screen passes where the 2017 OL just couldn't get the block to spring the runner. Getting a mobile interior OL (Richberg/Cooper/Garnett?) will help the screen passes that require OL to block second level defenders.
One way to get around a not-very-mobile interior OL is to call middle screens. Kyle called a number of these, but this one scores 6 so I'll show this one. 20 personnel, which isn't seen often.


OL that aren't mobile will struggle to hunt down LBs. Kyle uses playaction to draw in the blue LB...


So that the blue LB is easier to block for the OLmen that are moving upfield.


Caught the defense in a blitz.

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

I was thinking that too. The timing is cutting it close, and really relies on the LB "buying" the play fake and getting all the way to the LOS. If he doesn't (like in the play highlighted), then the FB has to be aware and not make contact. Or just bulldoze the LB 3 yards downfield like Juice did lol.

I wonder if the refs are more lenient on those plays. I would think we'd see it called more often if they were being strict.

I can't remember ever seeing it called between the tackles on play action like that. It's usually only when a WR is blocking downfield on a screen pass. Maybe that's why Juice just went for it.

Seems like a gray area Shanahan should exploit more.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Wouldn't that rule make it hard to sell play action? Fullback has to block or it's obvious, isn't it?

I was thinking that too. The timing is cutting it close, and really relies on the LB "buying" the play fake and getting all the way to the LOS. If he doesn't (like in the play highlighted), then the FB has to be aware and not make contact. Or just bulldoze the LB 3 yards downfield like Juice did lol.

I wonder if the refs are more lenient on those plays. I would think we'd see it called more often if they were being strict.

I can't remember ever seeing it called between the tackles on play action like that. It's usually only when a WR is blocking downfield on a screen pass. Maybe that's why Juice just went for it.

Seems like a gray area Shanahan should exploit more.

Agreed.

And of course, the typical WCO concepts that get the RB involved.
Slant-Flat vs Cover1(?)


Slant-Flat requires man coverge defenders to know whether they will work over, or underneath the pick. These defenders collide with one another.



-----------------------
Texas concept vs Quarters


TE releases to the outside of the blue LB so that the blue LB gains width for the RB angle route to work to the inside.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Doesn't it fall under the 5 yard chuck rule since the ball wasn't in the air until after the contact was complete and done with?

Hmm. I thought the rule is 1 yard beyond the line scrimmage, can't block a defender. Unless the pass is targeted behind the line of scrimmage. Juice straight up put a lead block on that LB 2 yards beyond the LoS.

Depends. A block is no different than chucking but staying engaged. FB did not stay engaged. For example, a WR can go full steam into the DB with a strong chuck as long as it is within 5 yards, right?

A few takeaways from spotlighting the RBs in the passing game. When getting the RB into the flat, Kyle likes to use the wide side of the field. Makes a lot of sense since this allows more space for the RB to earn yards after the catch. The more an offense can threaten the Flats, the more space will be earned over the middle of the field as the box defenders are forced to widen on their zone coverage drops when they see a RB run towards the flat. This declutters the Hook zones for larger passing lanes that should appear earlier in the play as LBs react to RBs going into the Flats.

RB vs LB is a matchup Kyle looks to exploit in man coverage. No secret here. Kyle talks about wanting players that beat man coverage. He went hard after Juice last season who is a quick for a FB. This season he gets Jet. I didn't see many vertical routes from the RBs in 2017. Adjusting to long passes isn't something many RBs do well, as shown on the Hyde deep pass vs HOU. Whether it comes in the form of a wheel route from the backfield, or a seam route from the slot, we'll see if Kyle uses Jet to attack vertically. He did send TColeman on vertical routes with ATL.

For a short passing game to be effective, all 5 route runners need to release into their route at the snap. This creates immediate movement from the defenders. A good play design gets these defenders to move the direction that the offense wants them to move - opening passing lanes, earning space to catch and run, and/or isolating a favorable matchup. RB performing a check-release, something we saw a lot of with Roman's offense, does not generate movement from the in the box LBs. Kyle showing that he will attack the flats forces defenses to honor the flats and cover the width of the field.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Doesn't it fall under the 5 yard chuck rule since the ball wasn't in the air until after the contact was complete and done with?

Hmm. I thought the rule is 1 yard beyond the line scrimmage, can't block a defender. Unless the pass is targeted behind the line of scrimmage. Juice straight up put a lead block on that LB 2 yards beyond the LoS.

Depends. A block is no different than chucking but staying engaged. FB did not stay engaged. For example, a WR can go full steam into the DB with a strong chuck as long as it is within 5 yards, right?

This is from the rulebook, page 35: https://operations.nfl.com/media/2646/2017-playing-rules.pdf
Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference.

The way Juice went after the LB didn't look like he was running a route. He dove right at the LBs legs in an attempt to take him out. That's what it looked like to me.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Doesn't it fall under the 5 yard chuck rule since the ball wasn't in the air until after the contact was complete and done with?

Hmm. I thought the rule is 1 yard beyond the line scrimmage, can't block a defender. Unless the pass is targeted behind the line of scrimmage. Juice straight up put a lead block on that LB 2 yards beyond the LoS.

Depends. A block is no different than chucking but staying engaged. FB did not stay engaged. For example, a WR can go full steam into the DB with a strong chuck as long as it is within 5 yards, right?

This is from the rulebook, page 35: https://operations.nfl.com/media/2646/2017-playing-rules.pdf
Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference.

The way Juice went after the LB didn't look like he was running a route. He dove right at the LBs legs in an attempt to take him out. That's what it looked like to me.

Yea that should've been a penalty on Juice. And this rule is in place to stop offenses from run blocking when passing the ball.

Originally posted by thl408:
A few takeaways from spotlighting the RBs in the passing game. When getting the RB into the flat, Kyle likes to use the wide side of the field. Makes a lot of sense since this allows more space for the RB to earn yards after the catch. The more an offense can threaten the Flats, the more space will be earned over the middle of the field as the box defenders are forced to widen on their zone coverage drops when they see a RB run towards the flat. This declutters the Hook zones for larger passing lanes that should appear earlier in the play as LBs react to RBs going into the Flats.

RB vs LB is a matchup Kyle looks to exploit in man coverage. No secret here. Kyle talks about wanting players that beat man coverage. He went hard after Juice last season who is a quick for a FB. This season he gets Jet. I didn't see many vertical routes from the RBs in 2017. Adjusting to long passes isn't something many RBs do well, as shown on the Hyde deep pass vs HOU. Whether it comes in the form of a wheel route from the backfield, or a seam route from the slot, we'll see if Kyle uses Jet to attack vertically. He did send TColeman on vertical routes with ATL.

For a short passing game to be effective, all 5 route runners need to release into their route at the snap. This creates immediate movement from the defenders. A good play design gets these defenders to move the direction that the offense wants them to move - opening passing lanes, earning space to catch and run, and/or isolating a favorable matchup. RB performing a check-release, something we saw a lot of with Roman's offense, does not generate movement from the in the box LBs. Kyle showing that he will attack the flats forces defenses to honor the flats and cover the width of the field.

What are the rules on motion? I thought the player in motion had to be set before the snap of the ball. The running back is still in motion when the ball is snapped.