Offseason All22 Film Study

Originally posted by thl408:
Kyle showed a clear preference for '21' last season. In 2017, teams like JAC and BAL showed a clear preference for 12 (1rb/2te/2wr). Both force the defense to stay in base (4 defensive backs).

21 (2rb/1te/2wr)


12

This is from the Hoodie himself as he discusses the differences in '21' and '12'. There's a lot of nerdy X&Os stuff in his answer. Below are snippets.
-------------------
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2013/08/bill_belichick_dishes_on_differences_between_12_and_21
Bill Belichick was asked today to explain the different advantages in sets with two running backs and one tight end ("21" personnel) instead of one running back and two tight ends ("12"). Both sets also include two wide receivers.
- "Well, I think when you, just fundamentally, when you have one back in the backfield (12) and you have four on-the-line receivers, that gives you an ability to get into the defense potentially with four people," Belichick said. "Or even if it's three of them, sometimes the defense isn't sure which three of them it is. One tight end could be in it and the other guy could be in protection, that type of thing."
- "But as far as your running gaps, I mean, you can put more width at the formation by having a guy on the line, whether it's four on one side and two on the other side of the center, or three and three. You just have a wider front, which there are some advantages to that. By having them in the backfield, you can create that same four-man surface or three-man surface after the snap so the defense doesn't know where the four-man surface or three-man surface is. The fullback has to –- he can build that from the backfield."
- "And then there are also, let's say, a greater variety of blocking schemes with the fullback in the backfield (21) because he can block different guys and come from different angles. He's not always behind the quarterback. He could be offset one way or the other and create different blocking schemes and angles that it's harder to get from the line of scrimmage."
- "Also, depending on who your tight end is, it can be a little bit easier to pass protect seven men because two of them are in the backfield (21) instead of us having one in the backfield. I think fundamentally it's a little easier to pick them up when you a have a guy in the backfield that can step up and block him from the fullback position (21) as opposed to a tight end in the line of scrimmage (12)
- "Obviously when you have a guy in the backfield (21), it's harder to get those two receivers vertically into the defense in the passing game. They're usually running shorter routes to the flat or checking over the ball or those kind of things, short crossing routes, versus having that fourth receiver on the line of scrimmage who can run some downfield routes,"
------------------
So what Hoodie is basically saying:
- In the passing game: '12' allows for the 2TEs to get into their routes faster since they are closer to the line of scrimmage when compared to a FB in the backfield ('21'). So '12' allows the offense to threaten vertically easier than '21'.
- In the run game: '12' with two inline TEs will spread the defensive box wider. But '21' allows the FB to move and set the strongside after the snap. After the snap allows the offense to be more unpredictable with unbalanced formations. More variety in run game concepts with a FB.
- In blitz pickup: '21' puts two potential blockers in the backfield which is easier to pass protect because they can see blitzers coming - as opposed to '12' where TEs are inline.

Good article, I can see the difference being a more vertical offense vs a more horizontal offense. And, from my perspective, those alignments affect both the run and the pass offense.

My memory does not include shotgun formation with Walsh. I see other teams in the NFL use it, I don't recall Walsh ever uses it. It's like a unicorn with Walsh. I could be so wrong though. It's been a long time

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

My memory does not include shotgun formation with Walsh. I see other teams in the NFL use it, I don't recall Walsh ever uses it. It's like a unicorn with Walsh. I could be so wrong though. It's been a long time

It was a unicorn and not featured but it was in the playbook and here's that photographically evidence


This is from the Bear game in 1981. Haha look at the shotgun and 21 personnel with WR in a 3 point stance.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

My memory does not include shotgun formation with Walsh. I see other teams in the NFL use it, I don't recall Walsh ever uses it. It's like a unicorn with Walsh. I could be so wrong though. It's been a long time

It was a unicorn and not featured but it was in the playbook and here's that photographically evidence


This is from the Bear game in 1981. Haha look at the shotgun and 21 personnel with WR in a 3 point stance.

Haha 😆 Montana must be— WTF am I doing here

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well, what Hoodie was talking about was being able to utilize those bigger guys that you use to keep the defense in base in vertical stretches or deep horizontals.

A TE on the line can run a seam route, DIG, deep out, corner route - all staples of vertical stretching plays. Having that FB try and run a DIG in time with a post route or shallow cross to create a vertical stretch isn't an option. That's what he's talking about. Not meaning you can't throw a deep pass, but you can't get your 4th or 5th receiving options into deeper verticals so the defense doesn't have to clue into them as variants of passing concepts.

To help illustrate what you mentioned above with 12 personnel and how it can attack vertically because the two TEs are on the line. This is one advantage Hoodie mentioned that '12' has over '21'. This play was posted earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
I don't know if the stats was kept back in the 80's but it seems to me from my memory, Bill Walsh kept the team in 21 personnel often.

I remember him being asked about what was commonly called "the two back set" then.
He said it was the most flexible formation and it allowed him to keep the element of surprise. Once you go shotgun, 4-5 wide, theirs not a lot of guess work for defenders.

I am extremely pleased to see the return of a true Bill Walsh styled west coast offense, it still seems to work!

Yep, my memory of Walsh offense in the 80's is the same. I rarely see it without the 2 back set. I was younger back then, and didn't pay attention to football as much like now, but it seemed he can go deep with the 2backs set too despite what Belichick indicated.

I guess you can go deep with Rice with any formation

Glad the WCO DNA passed on through to Kyle

Originally posted by Niners816:
1985 Bill Walsh Formations















Take note that there was some actual shotgun plays in the playbook. However, I'm not sure if they were ever used in game.

Had to borrow from myself from like 4 years ago....but here are the formations listed in the 1985 Walsh playbook. And Yes it includes shotguns. I have actually seen the niners use he gun under Walsh. I have a gif somewhere from the 1981 game vs Chicago that features a gun play.

The article talking offense with the Hoodie is interesting, he doesn't run a Bill Parcels offense. If you watch the 1994 game in another thread around here, you will see Kyles old man spanking a Bill Parcels led team, and a young DC with out his trade mark hoodie looking lost as Ricky Watters scores 5 times on his unit!

This chart lists the offenses that had the best Yards Before Contact averages when running Counter. It's an average of how many yards are gained before a defender first touches the RB. So this metric tries to measure how well the OL is blocking on Counter plays while removing the RB's performance on the play.
For example, if a defender gets penetration into the backfield, but the RB slips an arm tackle for a 4 yard gain, this YBC stat would suffer because the blocking wasn't good on that play since a defender made contact in the backfield.


The 49ers only ran 14 Counter runs in 2017 by PFF's count, but I think I know why their count is low compared to what I would have estimated. PFF is probably classifying Counter plays by requiring a Guard to pull, in addition to the counter-action by the RB(s). The 49ers many times used counter action by the RB without a pulling guard, and I don't think PFF used those plays towards calculating this metric.

So this play here is a Counter by PFF (I think):


But this play here is not a Counter by PFF's criteria, but I was viewing it as a Counter play. I could be wrong about my definition for this particular type of play. There's some misdirection, but I can see why PFF would not consider it a Counter play.


This here below is a Counter play in every sense: RB counter action, pulling guard with the kickout block, FB lead through hole, weakside is the playside.

The second one looks like dressed up split zone, no? Can't be counter because of the QB's pivot+footwork/RB's footwork.

Originally posted by Heroism:
The second one looks like dressed up split zone, no? Can't be counter because of the QB's pivot+footwork/RB's footwork.

Yeah it's split zone. I shouldn't think it's Counter.

2nd GIF, Kittle got shed like an old overcoat. But then again, he'll do his damage in the air. Also if that was McKinnon instead of Hyde, that would have been a huge game due to McKinnon's acceleration and explosive speed.

Originally posted by thl408:

This chart lists the offenses that had the best Yards Before Contact averages when running Counter. It's an average of how many yards are gained before a defender first touches the RB. So this metric tries to measure how well the OL is blocking on Counter plays while removing the RB's performance on the play.
For example, if a defender gets penetration into the backfield, but the RB slips an arm tackle for a 4 yard gain, this YBC stat would suffer because the blocking wasn't good on that play since a defender made contact in the backfield.


The 49ers only ran 14 Counter runs in 2017 by PFF's count, but I think I know why their count is low compared to what I would have estimated. PFF is probably classifying Counter plays by requiring a Guard to pull, in addition to the counter-action by the RB(s). The 49ers many times used counter action by the RB without a pulling guard, and I don't think PFF used those plays towards calculating this metric.

So this play here is a Counter by PFF (I think):


But this play here is not a Counter by PFF's criteria, but I was viewing it as a Counter play. I could be wrong about my definition for this particular type of play. There's some misdirection, but I can see why PFF would not consider it a Counter play.


This here below is a Counter play in every sense: RB counter action, pulling guard with the kickout block, FB lead through hole, weakside is the playside.

Simple definition of a counter, is a run to the weak side of a run formation.

People get caught up in foot work, motion, and deception, but to me a counter is a play that runs away from the TE and or the FB side of the formation.

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Simple definition of a counter, is a run to the weak side of a run formation.

People get caught up in foot work, motion, and deception, but to me a counter is a play that runs away from the TE and or the FB side of the formation.

Yeah that's the most straight forward definition - a run to the weakside. Here's how PFF defined Counter and it made no mention of running to the weakside:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/breaking-down-pffs-run-concepts
Counter plays are very similar to power plays though in PFF's definition, there is a second blocker coming from the backside to the playside. There is still a backside puller, however on counter, the puller will generally get to the hole first, while the fullback will get to the hole first on power. Much like power, the point of attack is predetermined and the front side blockers are looking to clear out the defensive line to give room for the puller and the running back to run through the hole.

I don't agree with how they said the puller gets to the hole first on Counter. I would have said that the puller (guard) will perform the kickout block on the force defender, the FB leads through the hole. And on Power, the FB is assigned the kickout block, while the pulling guard leads through the hole.

Based on PFF definition above, the vs Rams play is a Counter, even though it's ran to the strongside - which by yours and my definition, it's not a Counter: I do think the counter step by the RBs and QB is important to a Counter play, but if I had to go with one definition, it would be what you said above about running to the weakside.

Great stuff all.

Originally posted by Niners816:

It was a unicorn and not featured but it was in the playbook and here's that photographically evidence


This is from the Bear game in 1981. Haha look at the shotgun and 21 personnel with WR in a 3 point stance.

Lmao

I love the trap runs that harbaugh used

Offenses have used it against deforest a few times, got him slippin