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Offseason All22 Film Study

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  • Giedi
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Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
The only thing I can think of is maybe the RB is protecting against blitzes or stunts up the middle. Maybe a modified draw play?

Perhaps that. The photos Hero put up were all 3rd downs. Putting the RB there eliminates the threat of run unless it's a direct snap. When I first glanced at that I thought McVay finally put two RBs in the backfield.

The RB can run a lot of nice option routes from there if he can get through the traffic at the LOS.
  • thl408
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As the 49ers move to a base wide 9 look, a lot of the talk has been about the two DEs, how they are aligned wider, and have more space to work the OTs when pass rushing. But by doing this, the interior of the DL is also further spread apart, weakening the interior run defense.

A front four aligning in a wide 9 is more similar to an Over front than it is an Under front. In an Over front and a wide 9, the 3tech aligns to the strongside. Because the DEs are wider, and the 3t stays in the same position, there is no longer a 1tech. Instead there is a 2i to help alleviate the bubble gaps. These cut ups are focused on the 2i and the different ways the offense can attack him.

This is a 4-3 Over front. Notice how it is similar to when the 4 DL is in a wide 9 with the 3t on the strongside of the offensive formation. Notice the position of the nose tackle, playing 1t.


The post linked below (thanks, NC) contains some input from a former player that played under Jim Schwartz, inventor of the wide 9. I'm pasting some excerpts from his tweets.
https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/188062-defensive-coordinator-robert-saleh/page732/#post10967
"So another really important position is the 2tech (playing either head up on the guard or shaded inside). In all actuality, the 2tech needs the be the most explosive interior player, the 3tech needs to have a little more balance & control."
"Playing a 1T puts alot of stress on the LB that may have the b gap, because there is ALOT of distance between the 1t and the 5t (defensive end). Playing the 2T (or 2i) helps balance out the integrity of the defense"

In a wide 9, if the nose tackle were to play a 1t, there would be a gigantic bubble gap between the 1t and the weakside DE. To help mitigate this large bubble gap, they move the nose tackle to 2i. While the difference is a couple feet at most, in this close of quarters, the difference is magnified. All these cut ups are of a Jim Schwartz defense.

The 2i is an 'A' gap player and that is all he is. If he doesn't fire off the ball quickly, he is a liability and can get sealed out of his gap.


2i is slow at the snap and the Center is able to cross his face.


2i is now sealed off and is no longer in his run fit.



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Along the front 4, the largest bubble gap is the weakside B gap. A primary task for the 2i is taking on combo blocks from the guard and center. The better he can do this, the more space and time he allows the WILL to diagnose and fill this B gap. Most wide 9 DLs will face a lot of inside zone concepts.


The 2i always wants to threaten the A gap forcing the guard and/or center to maintain the combo block. If he cannot threaten the A gap effectively and command attention from both the guard and center, then one of those two will be able to move to the second level and pick off a LB.


Below, the 2i doesn't hold the combo block and the guard moves to the second level to pick off the MIKE.



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Inside zone again. Notice where the 2i is lined up compared to the play above. Here, he's more of a true 2i. In the play above, it seems like he got lazy and lined up between a 2i and 1t. Small difference in actual distance, but could make a large difference.


2i tries to split the guard and center, and by doing this well, he is able to hold both of them and keep the MIKE clean. Backside unblocked DE must run parallel to the line and chase the play down if there is any hesitation from the RB. No daylight to run in the B gap - there will be hesitation from the RB.


The 2i must also be able to go lateral and run with the center and guard while not giving up ground. (The LT gets defeated, but even if he hadn't, this play is dead in the water due to the 2i and backside DE)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Because a 2i is aligned further away from the Center when compared to a 1t, this creates a better angle for the Center to downblock on the 2i allowing the guard to pull. I saw some teams attack the 2i like this often throughout a game.



Center downblocks, guard pulls to apply the trap block on the 3t.


This is Kyle's offense.


This play illustrates a couple things that a wide 9 will face - the 2i getting pinned, and the 3t getting trapped. There are times when the pulling guard will lead through the hole instead of trapping the 3t. All one gapping fronts are susceptible to trap blocks since DL are trying to penetrate, but in a wide 9 where interior gaps are larger, interior running lanes are larger.
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Because the 2i is closer to the QB than a 3t, the 2i isn't going to face trap blocks, but he will face wham blocks. The difference between trap and wham is just who the blocker is - wham is applied by any non-offensive linemen - usually a TE or FB. Trying to trap block a 2i is risky because trap blocks take a tick longer to develop, and in that time an unblocked 2i can get on the QB in an instant.


Another point about the wide 9 is that since the DL is so spread apart, uncovered OLmen can more easily move to the second level. Here, the LT, C, and RT move up to the second level with little resistance.


Wham block applied by the FB on the 2i.



-----------------------------------------------------

If the 2i does something like this, it doesn't matter what the offense tries to do, runs aren't going anywhere.


While the majority of these cutups show a base defense (4DL, 3LB, 4DB), if the 49ers use this wide 9 in nickel as they have hinted at ("marry base with nickel"), then the same issues will be present in nickel.

Saleh about the switch to wide 9:
"We tried to marry base (defense) to nickel more. …We feel like we've been able to marry the two together so there isn't as much of a tendency. So to the players we might look more interchangeable, but we're actually no different than what we do in nickel."
"If you really go look at our season last year, we played 200-300 snaps of base defense. And in those snaps, I think we had like 50 snaps with the offense in two-(running) back all year. We did not see a lot of two-back. Everything is "11" personnel (three wide receivers) looks, spreading you out. They're just not letting us get into those formations anymore. If you eliminated third downs and you eliminated two-minute drives and it's just first and second downs and you looked at how many times a tight end was in a three-point stance on the line of scrimmage, it's not very much."
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He's saying that there were so few times when they faced base offense with an inline TE, a situation where the 49ers would matchup with their 4-3 under, so why not just play one style that works for when the offense goes base or 11? "Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?
Great post homie. Really great. Thanks to NC aswell
Originally posted by thl408:
"Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?

Already in mid-season form! That was absolutely phenomenal.

On your next installment, maybe after this Broncos game for additional confirmation, but there seems to be a difference in wide-9 and REALLY wide-9. Is that a difference in base vs. nickel, specific personnel such as AA/ST vs. Ford, etc.? At least against Dallas, our ends were a shade outside the T/TE but nothing extreme. Is that to guard against a good running team like Dallas?

Or am I seeing this incorrectly?

Originally posted by lamontb:
Great post homie. Really great. Thanks to NC aswell

Happy to help!
  • Giedi
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I like what Saleh/Kocurek did in the Dallas game and allowed the DLine to pinch in and stop the Dallas inside run games. When the DLine maintains a straight 4 man rush upfield without stunting or slanting, then you get that situation where the DLinemen just blow by the RB on a draw or trap play.

Other ways to counter the weakness of the wide 9 against the run that I saw in the dallas game was aligning the 3 LB's and the Safety closer to the LOS to clog the run game up or form an 8 man front to run fit those gaps.

All in all, if you add in Bosa and Ford and go wide 9 on a 3rd and long or if Kyle is leading in the fourth quarter and the 49er defense is playing the pass - it's a great pass rush alignment.

The only objection I have with the Wide 9 as a base defense is 3rd and short, first down, and if we're behind - I'd seriously question why a defensive coordinator would call a play that would basically *tell* the offense - please run it down our throats, we'll just give you 4+ yards on this play, thank you very much.
Great stuff, thl.

It looks like the wide 9 has good synergy with the 8-man box cover 3 scheme they've been running. I can't wait for the regular season.
[ Edited by Heroism on Aug 15, 2019 at 3:20 PM ]
  • thl408
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
"Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?
Already in mid-season form! That was absolutely phenomenal.

On your next installment, maybe after this Broncos game for additional confirmation, but there seems to be a difference in wide-9 and REALLY wide-9. Is that a difference in base vs. nickel, specific personnel such as AA/ST vs. Ford, etc.? At least against Dallas, our ends were a shade outside the T/TE but nothing extreme. Is that to guard against a good running team like Dallas?

The big takeaway I got from the DAL game, and re-reading what Saleh said, is that they are no longer a 5 man front. No more 4-3 Under. Saleh said that last season there were so few situations where the offense gave the defense a reason to be in a 4-3 Under that it made sense to scrap it completely, "marry base and nickel". Why rep 4-3 Under when the opposing offense gave so few situations to use it? So now base and nickel are both 4 man fronts whether it's an Over front or wide 9.
If the DEs aren't in a wide 9 and are only shading the outside shoulder of the TE, I think that's an adjustment to bolster inside run defense.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by Giedi:
I like what Saleh/Kocurek did in the Dallas game and allowed the DLine to pinch in and stop the Dallas inside run games. When the DLine maintains a straight 4 man rush upfield without stunting or slanting, then you get that situation where the DLinemen just blow by the RB on a draw or trap play.

Other ways to counter the weakness of the wide 9 against the run that I saw in the dallas game was aligning the 3 LB's and the Safety closer to the LOS to clog the run game up or form an 8 man front to run fit those gaps.

All in all, if you add in Bosa and Ford and go wide 9 on a 3rd and long or if Kyle is leading in the fourth quarter and the 49er defense is playing the pass - it's a great pass rush alignment.

The only objection I have with the Wide 9 as a base defense is 3rd and short, first down, and if we're behind - I'd seriously question why a defensive coordinator would call a play that would basically *tell* the offense - please run it down our throats, we'll just give you 4+ yards on this play, thank you very much.
I think we'll see it on first down. During this clinic, Schwartz said that when he made the decision to master the wide 9, he decided to do it then work on defending the runs that they will no doubt see - inside runs. He knew going wide9 would eliminate outside zone to the strong side so that was one less thing to practice.

This has been posted before but I wanted to highlight a small part of this video @ 5:26 to 6:15 ("eliminate some runs by design, force them to slug it out inside"). Does the 49er personnel fit? They have strength at DT and speed at DE. Seems like a good match.
Originally posted by thl408:
The big takeaway I got from the DAL game, and re-reading what Saleh said, is that they are no longer a 5 man front. No more 4-3 Under. Saleh said that last season there were so few situations where the offense gave the defense a reason to be in a 4-3 Under that it made sense to scrap it completely, "marry base and nickel". Why rep 4-3 Under when the opposing offense gave so few situations to use it? So now base and nickel are both 4 man fronts whether it's an Over front or wide 9.

If the DEs aren't in a wide 9 and are only shading the outside shoulder of the TE, I think that's an adjustment to bolster inside run defense.

That makes the most sense to me compared to something like this. I would imagine with Ford and Bosa too, you'd see them out wider like this but we'll see.

[ Edited by NCommand on Aug 15, 2019 at 5:49 PM ]
Originally posted by Heroism:
Great stuff, thl.

It looks like the wide 9 has good synergy with the 8-man box cover 3 scheme they've been running. I can't wait for the regular season.

Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
"Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?
Already in mid-season form! That was absolutely phenomenal.

On your next installment, maybe after this Broncos game for additional confirmation, but there seems to be a difference in wide-9 and REALLY wide-9. Is that a difference in base vs. nickel, specific personnel such as AA/ST vs. Ford, etc.? At least against Dallas, our ends were a shade outside the T/TE but nothing extreme. Is that to guard against a good running team like Dallas?

The big takeaway I got from the DAL game, and re-reading what Saleh said, is that they are no longer a 5 man front. No more 4-3 Under. Saleh said that last season there were so few situations where the offense gave the defense a reason to be in a 4-3 Under that it made sense to scrap it completely, "marry base and nickel". Why rep 4-3 Under when the opposing offense gave so few situations to use it? So now base and nickel are both 4 man fronts whether it's an Over front or wide 9.
If the DEs aren't in a wide 9 and are only shading the outside shoulder of the TE, I think that's an adjustment to bolster inside run defense.

Didn't Harbaugh always make Schwartz look dumb by using trap plays? Also, Salehs comment is concerning. He's designing in a reactionary way rather than being ahead of the game. I personally do not like the wide 9. Good for passing downs but I have a feeling that the run game is going to gash us. If he feels teams didn't show enough for us to play 4-3 under, well, he's in for a surprise this year.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
"Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?
Already in mid-season form! That was absolutely phenomenal.

On your next installment, maybe after this Broncos game for additional confirmation, but there seems to be a difference in wide-9 and REALLY wide-9. Is that a difference in base vs. nickel, specific personnel such as AA/ST vs. Ford, etc.? At least against Dallas, our ends were a shade outside the T/TE but nothing extreme. Is that to guard against a good running team like Dallas?

The big takeaway I got from the DAL game, and re-reading what Saleh said, is that they are no longer a 5 man front. No more 4-3 Under. Saleh said that last season there were so few situations where the offense gave the defense a reason to be in a 4-3 Under that it made sense to scrap it completely, "marry base and nickel". Why rep 4-3 Under when the opposing offense gave so few situations to use it? So now base and nickel are both 4 man fronts whether it's an Over front or wide 9.
If the DEs aren't in a wide 9 and are only shading the outside shoulder of the TE, I think that's an adjustment to bolster inside run defense.

Didn't Harbaugh always make Schwartz look dumb by using trap plays? Also, Salehs comment is concerning. He's designing in a reactionary way rather than being ahead of the game. I personally do not like the wide 9. Good for passing downs but I have a feeling that the run game is going to gash us. If he feels teams didn't show enough for us to play 4-3 under, well, he's in for a surprise this year.
Yes, traps and whams take advantage of the aggressive penetrators and bubble gaps of a wide 9 front. It's give and take, and the 49ers are giving up some run defense to put their DEs in a better position to rush the QB. It's all about what unit do you want to put the onus on to perform at a high level within the defense. For example, a defense that blitzes a lot puts the pressure on the CBs to cover 1v1 in order to increase QB pressure. A defense that only rushes 4 and blitzes infrequently puts pressure on the front 4 to generate pressure in order to drop 7 into coverage, to help the coverage.

Going wide9 puts pressure on the interior, and box players to stop the run in exchange for getting their DEs in 1v1 situations, which is supposed to favor good DEs, which the 49ers hope to have now with Ford/Bosa.

As far as Saleh being reactionary, I think defense in general is reactionary. Offense does something, defense has to react and adjust. Defense is reactionary by nature. Regarding the bolded, I'm looking at the 2019 schedule and only NO and ATL jump out as teams that use a FB.
This guy doesn't believe in reactionary defenses.

  • thl408
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Originally posted by Joecool:
This guy doesn't believe in reactionary defenses.
Would you prefer the defense to blitz a lot?
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
"Marrying base and nickel." Till death do you part?
Already in mid-season form! That was absolutely phenomenal.

On your next installment, maybe after this Broncos game for additional confirmation, but there seems to be a difference in wide-9 and REALLY wide-9. Is that a difference in base vs. nickel, specific personnel such as AA/ST vs. Ford, etc.? At least against Dallas, our ends were a shade outside the T/TE but nothing extreme. Is that to guard against a good running team like Dallas?

The big takeaway I got from the DAL game, and re-reading what Saleh said, is that they are no longer a 5 man front. No more 4-3 Under. Saleh said that last season there were so few situations where the offense gave the defense a reason to be in a 4-3 Under that it made sense to scrap it completely, "marry base and nickel". Why rep 4-3 Under when the opposing offense gave so few situations to use it? So now base and nickel are both 4 man fronts whether it's an Over front or wide 9.
If the DEs aren't in a wide 9 and are only shading the outside shoulder of the TE, I think that's an adjustment to bolster inside run defense.

Didn't Harbaugh always make Schwartz look dumb by using trap plays? Also, Salehs comment is concerning. He's designing in a reactionary way rather than being ahead of the game. I personally do not like the wide 9. Good for passing downs but I have a feeling that the run game is going to gash us. If he feels teams didn't show enough for us to play 4-3 under, well, he's in for a surprise this year.
Yes, traps and whams take advantage of the aggressive penetrators and bubble gaps of a wide 9 front. It's give and take, and the 49ers are giving up some run defense to put their DEs in a better position to rush the QB. It's all about what unit do you want to put the onus on to perform at a high level within the defense. For example, a defense that blitzes a lot puts the pressure on the CBs to cover 1v1 in order to increase QB pressure. A defense that only rushes 4 and blitzes infrequently puts pressure on the front 4 to generate pressure in order to drop 7 into coverage, to help the coverage.

Going wide9 puts pressure on the interior, and box players to stop the run in exchange for getting their DEs in 1v1 situations, which is supposed to favor good DEs, which the 49ers hope to have now with Ford/Bosa.

As far as Saleh being reactionary, I think defense in general is reactionary. Offense does something, defense has to react and adjust. Defense is reactionary by nature. Regarding the bolded, I'm looking at the 2019 schedule and only NO and ATL jump out as teams that use a FB.

And with the 49ers inside DL personnel as their strength position group on defense this seems like a very logical adjustment to task them with the most pressure to perform.
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