49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by goldensnake:

exactly when its a negative stat their all over it. when its a positive stat its disregarded, making it seem like we lost the game smh.

I was referencing the 25 total pressures not the silly little Skule grade. One is pretty objective. One is totally subjective based on their own operational definitions.

Originally posted by NCommand:
So 25 pressures on 45 drop backs.

And you have clowns like this.

Garoppolo said he couldn't see Wilson and Wilson said he couldn't see Garoppolo, and slowing this down shows exactly what they're talking about... and why the 49ers are so high on Garoppolo: pic.twitter.com/vGZ9Vbqfvd

— David Lombardi (@LombardiHimself) November 18, 2019

Maybe if he could MOVE in the pocket he could see his receivers...

— Alex Rudinski (@AlexMB19_) November 18, 2019

Opps.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Teams are stacking the box and it shows in our output.

OLine was/is my biggest concern entering the season and it still is.

The pass protection was average to less than average, the running game 2was pathetic.

McG is better than average but not by much.

Skuhle and Brunskill are keepers for sure.

We need to look for eventual replacements for C, G's and maybe a T.

and we can not forget kittle could make a big difference to

Truth!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by goldensnake:
They stacked the box And sold out against the run. I saw jimmy g stepping up comfortably in the pocket and having good protection. Richburg glinch skule Tomlinson all played well. But whatever keep criticizing the offensive line like everybody on this thread likes to do. Winning isn't enough their always has to be bashing.

Pointing out a clear weakness is not bashing. It's noting an area they need to clean up on and tune up on if they want to go somewhere in the playoffs.

Ditto

Originally posted by NinerGM:
So had a chance to check out some film and maybe you guys can help me with what I think I'm seeing ...

Opposing DLs are attacked out OL differently. Sometimes they stack the box but MOST TIMES they do not. DE in particular are attacking the C gaps going around the tackle getting immediate penetration behind the LOS and squeezing lanes in the play. It looks like the play asks for the TE to block the DE and the TE doesn't expect him to ignore his attempt completely and go after the runner. A great example of this is 2nd and 7 at AZ 42 (03:23) 1st Q.

I see this consistently by opposing defenses - DL attack the gaps between the OL even as they're moving laterally, in most cases even turning at an angle to push through while pushing our OL and tightening the running lanes.

I saw a lot of missed blocks, many instances where guys were just defeated immediately. It seems that now that teams have seen film on our running game, there's a clear book out there on how to beat it. One thing that jumps out me is execution. Because opposing DL are coached to immediately get "skinny" and then into the gaps, one missed block or a whiff or a defeat means a run for little gain.

I'm not a big film person but I'm attempting to watch and diagnose. Would certainly appreciate eyes here :).

from the video film by johnnydel it seems they haven't been stacking the boxes like people assume, just our Oline not executing and misses certain blocks.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I agree the OL was underwhelming BUT we using PFF in regards to lineman now? Ya'll need to make your minds up

NY I have much respect for your analysis. Our oline has performed admirably considering the injuries. Weston,Tomlinson and Person have been lights out imo through 10 games,no?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
The running game actually misses Kittle. Some plays yesterday I said if that TE was Kittle blocking, our RB would've exploded for a big gain. We need Kittle back for this run game to work again.

Agreed. We miss Kittle in the run game big time

Agreed

He helps both on the run and the pass. He's very consistent and he does get separation quickly.

I do see teams loading up on the run, and I can see Kyle adjusting more and getting more reliable receivers to operate the passing game (example reducing Pettis and increasing the other WR players' snaps). I also can see the rookies and 2nd year wide receivers improving as the season wears on (at least I hopes so) so that there is good balance in the run and passing game as the playoffs approach.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Pressures, hits and sacks are pretty concrete.

Operational PFF grades though...not so much esp. OL (I'll still post everything though and let others choose for themselves).

Then keep PFF out of the discussion completely if you can't use it all the time

Originally posted by Bellaleo:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I agree the OL was underwhelming BUT we using PFF in regards to lineman now? Ya'll need to make your minds up

NY I have much respect for your analysis. Our oline has performed admirably considering the injuries. Weston,Tomlinson and Person have been lights out imo through 10 games,no?

Imo they started out playing damn good. The past couple games they've played poorly overall.

Injuries have played a part. Richburg is playing with a hand issue not sure about the other two guards. McG is a real head scratcher. Overall underwhelming especially in the run game.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Pressures, hits and sacks are pretty concrete.

Operational PFF grades though...not so much esp. OL (I'll still post everything though and let others choose for themselves).

Then keep PFF out of the discussion completely if you can't use it all the time

It was a tweet reference...first I saw on total pressures. If FO or another source, I'd post that too.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Imo they started out playing damn good. The past couple games they've played poorly overall.

Injuries have played a part. Richburg is playing with a hand issue not sure about the other two guards. McG is a real head scratcher. Overall underwhelming especially in the run game.

Totally fair. We've also had to rely WAY more on the pass and we all know PP isn't exactly the OL's strength.

Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

So had a chance to check out some film and maybe you guys can help me with what I think I'm seeing ...

Opposing DLs are attacked out OL differently. Sometimes they stack the box but MOST TIMES they do not. DE in particular are attacking the C gaps going around the tackle getting immediate penetration behind the LOS and squeezing lanes in the play. It looks like the play asks for the TE to block the DE and the TE doesn't expect him to ignore his attempt completely and go after the runner. A great example of this is 2nd and 7 at AZ 42 (03:23) 1st Q.

I see this consistently by opposing defenses - DL attack the gaps between the OL even as they're moving laterally, in most cases even turning at an angle to push through while pushing our OL and tightening the running lanes.

I saw a lot of missed blocks, many instances where guys were just defeated immediately. It seems that now that teams have seen film on our running game, there's a clear book out there on how to beat it. One thing that jumps out me is execution. Because opposing DL are coached to immediately get "skinny" and then into the gaps, one missed block or a whiff or a defeat means a run for little gain.

I'm not a big film person but I'm attempting to watch and diagnose. Would certainly appreciate eyes here :).

from the video film by johnnydel it seems they haven't been stacking the boxes like people assume, just our Oline not executing and misses certain blocks.

True. Our OL has just had a really bad run the past few games and it isn't always against a stacked box. JD even noted Seattle didn't even get out of base which is embarrassing and a clear indication they felt confident defeating our OL and adding more in coverage...a LB on whomever, with no fear. For as good as they've been the fist 5 weeks or so, they've been equally bad the past 3+.

To NinerGM, agreed. Splitting the gaps is thr fastest way to blow up an OZ scheme, hence the 7 TFL. I 'think' Kyle was trying to adjust by running more IZ but that's not working either. Then in the second half, he said he just quit the run altogether. They aren't winning at the snap with quickness and positioning/technique anymore which is scary because that IS their game...it certainly isn't power. We all know OZ is all or nothing. When it hits is incredible. When it doesn't, you're losing yards.

Now we're relying on PP and that's scary. Bowles brought rushers right up the middle and I was blown away how the OL didn't even see them even AFTER the pressures.

Tomlinson is horrendous at this...one play in particular, T was doubling down, a rusher ran free right by his left shoulder (might have even touched him), instant pressure up the gut and old T is still doubling a man with Richburg after the play was over... didn't even flinch had he no clue what happened. They aren't passing off their rushers well either.

If anything, it's highlighting how incredibly fast JG is at getting rid of the ball. But with those pressures and an intermediate passing games, there's also going to be INT's and we're seeing that. He probably should have 7 INT's over the past 2-3 games alone.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

I assumed this was happening too but after taking a look at coach's film/all-22 this just isn't happening as often as people think. Both AZ and Seattle were defeating our run plays in base defense and not bringing in a safety to help at all. It's just that their expecting the OZ and beating our blocking to the punch by jumping the gaps and getting penetration either by understanding where we'd like to run or by players not executing well on either holding blocks or executing them. Not only are they keyed in on following Juice, they've studied film well and understand exactly what we're trying to execute. We should expect this because it is the NFL :).

The margin for error with executing is extremely low now that teams are expecting and coaching their DL how to read and defeat OZ blocking. This is where talent becomes more of an issue for players like Tomlinson and where it appears on film the time McG is still getting his run blocking legs under him.

Again this is happening out of base D.

Agreed. It just "feels" like DC's are stacking the box because the OL is getting whipped and our QB is constantly under duress. 55% of the drop backs.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
The running game actually misses Kittle. Some plays yesterday I said if that TE was Kittle blocking, our RB would've exploded for a big gain. We need Kittle back for this run game to work again.

Agreed. We miss Kittle in the run game big time

Agreed

He helps both on the run and the pass. He's very consistent and he does get separation quickly.

I do see teams loading up on the run, and I can see Kyle adjusting more and getting more reliable receivers to operate the passing game (example reducing Pettis and increasing the other WR players' snaps). I also can see the rookies and 2nd year wide receivers improving as the season wears on (at least I hopes so) so that there is good balance in the run and passing game as the playoffs approach.

I assumed this was happening too but after taking a look at coach's film/all-22 this just isn't happening as often as people think. Both AZ and Seattle were defeating our run plays in base defense and not bringing in a safety to help at all. It's just that their expecting the OZ and beating our blocking to the punch by jumping the gaps and getting penetration either by understanding where we'd like to run or by players not executing well on either holding blocks or executing them. Not only are they keyed in on following Juice, they've studied film well and understand exactly what we're trying to execute. We should expect this because it is the NFL :).

The margin for error with executing is extremely low now that teams are expecting and coaching their DL how to read and defeat OZ blocking. This is where talent becomes more of an issue for players like Tomlinson and where it appears on film the time McG is still getting his run blocking legs under him.

Again this is happening out of base D.

I'll assume your observations are correct, since I haven't hand time to really review the game tape myself.

Having said that, missing our all world TE in Kittle and also Saunders being injured, I'm still thinking - defensive coordinators are basically saying we're going to stop the run because we don't think you can pass very well due to injuries to Kittle and Saunders. So in that way, in a sense, they are loading up on the run by expecting us to run because of the injuries to the passing game, and using alignment and scheme to stop the run.

The emergence of Dwelly as a pass catcher I think is a telling fact that Kyle is adjusting to the DC's "loading up on the run" by scheming Dwelly to generate some passing yardage. It was interesting to note that Wilson was called on to recieve a pass on his only play vs running it which resulted in a TD - and seeing Jimmy lobbing it to Wilson over the (what I think) was a run blitz by Vance to stop the inside run. If you also noticed that the DE (Chandler JOnes?)was covering him - I think that's a schematic design for the DE to stop outside runs to his side but Kyle crossed him up by passing to Wilson, and the DE had no choice but to try to cover him on the pass. I saw that same coverage scheme by Salah against the Rams, with Bosa being the victim in the Rams game, and I think that was a defensive scheme design to stop the Ram outside zone run.

I think the emergence of Deebo and his continued development, and also the emergence of Dwelly and his continued development is going to be really important going forward if teams are (in a sense) loading up on the run via base defensive alignment and scheme.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Pressures, hits and sacks are pretty concrete.

Operational PFF grades though...not so much esp. OL (I'll still post everything though and let others choose for themselves).

Then keep PFF out of the discussion completely if you can't use it all the time

It was a tweet reference...first I saw on total pressures. If FO or another source, I'd post that too.

It's all good, I'm just saying PFF obviously tracks pressures (which was what that tweet was about)...if we're using the source for info, use it all the time. Don't poo poo on it then use it later to prove something