49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NYniner85:

It's all good, I'm just saying PFF obviously tracks pressures (which was what that tweet was about)...if we're using the source for info, use it all the time. Don't poo poo on it then use it later to prove something

Oh I do. I post everything even though you beat me to it half the time. LOL

Like I said, some stats are much more concrete and consistent and sacks, hits and pressures are some of those so I have no issues using PFF or any other entity for that. That's all.

I'll still post PFF either way though for informational purposes and let others form their own opinion even though I have my own take on their OL grades.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

I assumed this was happening too but after taking a look at coach's film/all-22 this just isn't happening as often as people think. Both AZ and Seattle were defeating our run plays in base defense and not bringing in a safety to help at all. It's just that their expecting the OZ and beating our blocking to the punch by jumping the gaps and getting penetration either by understanding where we'd like to run or by players not executing well on either holding blocks or executing them. Not only are they keyed in on following Juice, they've studied film well and understand exactly what we're trying to execute. We should expect this because it is the NFL :).

The margin for error with executing is extremely low now that teams are expecting and coaching their DL how to read and defeat OZ blocking. This is where talent becomes more of an issue for players like Tomlinson and where it appears on film the time McG is still getting his run blocking legs under him.

Again this is happening out of base D.

Agreed. It just "feels" like DC's are stacking the box because the OL is getting whipped and our QB is constantly under duress. 55% of the drop backs.

I would like to see more WR quick screens to someone like Deebo to loosen up the middle. In would take 4-5 Yards there all day.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
So had a chance to check out some film and maybe you guys can help me with what I think I'm seeing ...

Opposing DLs are attacked out OL differently. Sometimes they stack the box but MOST TIMES they do not. DE in particular are attacking the C gaps going around the tackle getting immediate penetration behind the LOS and squeezing lanes in the play. It looks like the play asks for the TE to block the DE and the TE doesn't expect him to ignore his attempt completely and go after the runner. A great example of this is 2nd and 7 at AZ 42 (03:23) 1st Q.

I see this consistently by opposing defenses - DL attack the gaps between the OL even as they're moving laterally, in most cases even turning at an angle to push through while pushing our OL and tightening the running lanes.

I saw a lot of missed blocks, many instances where guys were just defeated immediately. It seems that now that teams have seen film on our running game, there's a clear book out there on how to beat it. One thing that jumps out me is execution. Because opposing DL are coached to immediately get "skinny" and then into the gaps, one missed block or a whiff or a defeat means a run for little gain.

I'm not a big film person but I'm attempting to watch and diagnose. Would certainly appreciate eyes here :).

from the video film by johnnydel it seems they haven't been stacking the boxes like people assume, just our Oline not executing and misses certain blocks.

True. Our OL has just had a really bad run the past few games and it isn't always against a stacked box. JD even noted Seattle didn't even get out of base which is embarrassing and a clear indication they felt confident defeating our OL and adding more in coverage...a LB on whomever, with no fear. For as good as they've been the fist 5 weeks or so, they've been equally bad the past 3+.

To NinerGM, agreed. Splitting the gaps is thr fastest way to blow up an OZ scheme, hence the 7 TFL. I 'think' Kyle was trying to adjust by running more IZ but that's not working either. Then in the second half, he said he just quit the run altogether. They aren't winning at the snap with quickness and positioning/technique anymore which is scary because that IS their game...it certainly isn't power. We all know OZ is all or nothing. When it hits is incredible. When it doesn't, you're losing yards.

Now we're relying on PP and that's scary. Bowles brought rushers right up the middle and I was blown away how the OL didn't even see them even AFTER the pressures.

Tomlinson is horrendous at this...one play in particular, T was doubling down, a rusher ran free right by his left shoulder (might have even touched him), instant pressure up the gut and old T is still doubling a man with Richburg after the play was over... didn't even flinch had he no clue what happened. They aren't passing off their rushers well either.

If anything, it's highlighting how incredibly fast JG is at getting rid of the ball. But with those pressures and an intermediate passing games, there's also going to be INT's and we're seeing that. He probably should have 7 INT's over the past 2-3 games alone.

I think the offense is just missing Kittle's production. Kittle was great at the screen game with those sideways screens (or whatever they call it) where the entire offense goes one way and Kittle sneaks out the other way and catches a screen pass and gets 10+ yards after the catch. I don't think Dwelly is that kind of athlete, and so they are having to do some work-arounds on that screen game with Kittle injured. I really haven't seen Dwelly in the QB keeper bootleg plays either where - again - offense goes one way, QB keeps and passes to Dwelly on a drag route to the other side. When you don't have a TE that can get some reliable YAC's on outside zone play-passes, defensive teams will begin to ignore the outside play pass and the zone runs get a lot harder since a linebacker isn't watching for the TE anymore and is now keying on the running game.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

So had a chance to check out some film and maybe you guys can help me with what I think I'm seeing ...

Opposing DLs are attacked out OL differently. Sometimes they stack the box but MOST TIMES they do not. DE in particular are attacking the C gaps going around the tackle getting immediate penetration behind the LOS and squeezing lanes in the play. It looks like the play asks for the TE to block the DE and the TE doesn't expect him to ignore his attempt completely and go after the runner. A great example of this is 2nd and 7 at AZ 42 (03:23) 1st Q.

I see this consistently by opposing defenses - DL attack the gaps between the OL even as they're moving laterally, in most cases even turning at an angle to push through while pushing our OL and tightening the running lanes.

I saw a lot of missed blocks, many instances where guys were just defeated immediately. It seems that now that teams have seen film on our running game, there's a clear book out there on how to beat it. One thing that jumps out me is execution. Because opposing DL are coached to immediately get "skinny" and then into the gaps, one missed block or a whiff or a defeat means a run for little gain.

I'm not a big film person but I'm attempting to watch and diagnose. Would certainly appreciate eyes here :).

from the video film by johnnydel it seems they haven't been stacking the boxes like people assume, just our Oline not executing and misses certain blocks.

True. Our OL has just had a really bad run the past few games and it isn't always against a stacked box. JD even noted Seattle didn't even get out of base which is embarrassing and a clear indication they felt confident defeating our OL and adding more in coverage...a LB on whomever, with no fear. For as good as they've been the fist 5 weeks or so, they've been equally bad the past 3+.

To NinerGM, agreed. Splitting the gaps is thr fastest way to blow up an OZ scheme, hence the 7 TFL. I 'think' Kyle was trying to adjust by running more IZ but that's not working either. Then in the second half, he said he just quit the run altogether. They aren't winning at the snap with quickness and positioning/technique anymore which is scary because that IS their game...it certainly isn't power. We all know OZ is all or nothing. When it hits is incredible. When it doesn't, you're losing yards.

Now we're relying on PP and that's scary. Bowles brought rushers right up the middle and I was blown away how the OL didn't even see them even AFTER the pressures.

Tomlinson is horrendous at this...one play in particular, T was doubling down, a rusher ran free right by his left shoulder (might have even touched him), instant pressure up the gut and old T is still doubling a man with Richburg after the play was over... didn't even flinch had he no clue what happened. They aren't passing off their rushers well either.

If anything, it's highlighting how incredibly fast JG is at getting rid of the ball. But with those pressures and an intermediate passing games, there's also going to be INT's and we're seeing that. He probably should have 7 INT's over the past 2-3 games alone.

Mind you kittle isn't playing. Mind you Staley isn't playing. Mind you mcglinchey is coming off of surgery and shaking off rust. All of these factor but you make it seem like their is no hope and that they're gonna suck forever. Richburg is having an all pro year and nobody is giving him love. Person is an undrafted free agent playing well. If the offensive line sucks so bad then how did we win all the games earlier running the ball so well? Exactly.

Originally posted by goldensnake:

Mind you kittle isn't playing. Mind you Staley isn't playing. Mind you mcglinchey is coming off of surgery and shaking off rust. All of these factor but you make it seem like their is no hope and that they're gonna suck forever. Richburg is having an all pro year and nobody is giving him love. Person is an undrafted free agent playing well. If the offensive line sucks so bad then how did we win all the games earlier running the ball so well? Exactly.

Mind you Person was drafted by the 49ers in the 7th rd.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

Originally posted by jcs:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

If this was a positive ranking you wouldn't have posted it but because it's negative you posted it. We get it the offensive line sucks. Niners suck. 9-1 means nothing. The rest of the regular season will be bad. Niners suck Niners suck. We get it dude

Originally posted by goldensnake:

Originally posted by jcs:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

If this was a positive ranking you wouldn't have posted it but because it's negative you posted it. We get it the offensive line sucks. Niners suck. 9-1 means nothing. The rest of the regular season will be bad. Niners suck Niners suck. We get it dude

It's too bad you can't post about the article or the gif but instead used this as a reason to attack another poster. You'll learn the hard way.

Originally posted by goldensnake:

If this was a positive ranking you wouldn't have posted it but because it's negative you posted it. We get it the offensive line sucks. Niners suck. 9-1 means nothing. The rest of the regular season will be bad. Niners suck Niners suck. We get it dude

Hey, maybe you can learn how to embed a tweet and post your rainbow and unicorn tweets. There's a lot out there but in most forums, it's important to talk about our weaknesses too since that's almost always what's exposed in the playoffs.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by goldensnake:

Originally posted by jcs:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

If this was a positive ranking you wouldn't have posted it but because it's negative you posted it. We get it the offensive line sucks. Niners suck. 9-1 means nothing. The rest of the regular season will be bad. Niners suck Niners suck. We get it dude

It's too bad you can't post about the article or the gif but instead used this as a reason to attack another poster. You'll learn the hard way.

No one attacked you. I'm just telling the truth. Negative rankings always gets posted and positive rankings get disregarded. I've seen It here so many times and it's never gonna change. The media does it. The webzone does it. Ninersnation does it. It's the same bs and it will
Never stop.

Originally posted by jcs:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

Facts...PP has been a long standing issue even before KS got here. Getting back to run success will help a ton though and then KS can smoke and mirror it again like we saw the first 5 weeks and esp. after Staley and McGlinchey and Juice went down.

Originally posted by goldensnake:

Mind you kittle isn't playing. Mind you Staley isn't playing. Mind you mcglinchey is coming off of surgery and shaking off rust. All of these factor but you make it seem like their is no hope and that they're gonna suck forever. Richburg is having an all pro year and nobody is giving him love. Person is an undrafted free agent playing well. If the offensive line sucks so bad then how did we win all the games earlier running the ball so well? Exactly.

Nobody is dismissing the excuses here...Staley and McGlinchey played like ass. Staley is gone again. Juice is back but Toilolo is hurt and Tomlinson, Richburg, Person and McGlinchey didn't fare any better this week and Skule gave up 8 pressures. They just aren't playing well right now. It doesn't mean they can't return to form but the talent level and pass protection concerning fans coming into the season are real and the data is starting to show that...and here we are. Kyle (scheme) and JG (TTT) did all they could but at some point, a weakness will show. And right now, our OL is playing like a weakness.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:
True. Our OL has just had a really bad run the past few games and it isn't always against a stacked box. JD even noted Seattle didn't even get out of base which is embarrassing and a clear indication they felt confident defeating our OL and adding more in coverage...a LB on whomever, with no fear. For as good as they've been the fist 5 weeks or so, they've been equally bad the past 3+.

To NinerGM, agreed. Splitting the gaps is thr fastest way to blow up an OZ scheme, hence the 7 TFL. I 'think' Kyle was trying to adjust by running more IZ but that's not working either. Then in the second half, he said he just quit the run altogether. They aren't winning at the snap with quickness and positioning/technique anymore which is scary because that IS their game...it certainly isn't power. We all know OZ is all or nothing. When it hits is incredible. When it doesn't, you're losing yards.

Now we're relying on PP and that's scary. Bowles brought rushers right up the middle and I was blown away how the OL didn't even see them even AFTER the pressures.

Tomlinson is horrendous at this...one play in particular, T was doubling down, a rusher ran free right by his left shoulder (might have even touched him), instant pressure up the gut and old T is still doubling a man with Richburg after the play was over... didn't even flinch had he no clue what happened. They aren't passing off their rushers well either.

If anything, it's highlighting how incredibly fast JG is at getting rid of the ball. But with those pressures and an intermediate passing games, there's also going to be INT's and we're seeing that. He probably should have 7 INT's over the past 2-3 games alone.

We're going to see this constantly until we can prove we can execute to counter. I expect much of this next week with Green Bay. And even if Kittle returns, it helps with the C gaps, but not with what's happening on the other side of the OL with Tomlinson and to some extent Juice. When you get a chance, count the number of times he's not squaring up on his designated target. The LBs are playing angles just like the DL. They're doing everything possible to get around Juice in an effort to squeeze the hole. So what's really key here is that they're not shutting down the run game by "loading up", they're shutting down the run game by splitting gaps, pushing laterally down the LOS almost using the OL blocking momentum against them in OZ. When Kyle switches to IZ, this is where Tomlinson and to a degree Person just aren't winning at the LOS. However in both OZ and IZ, the tackles are getting destroyed or schemed to block someone who's not really attacking.

Thanks for helping me articulate what I was seeing. Again since from base defense, Kittle receiving threat only makes him potent against teams who suck at covering TE. It will not, however, make this team more effective at running if we're not able to counter and execute runblocking that counters how DL are attacking gaps.

If the DLine is shooting the gaps, and Kyle is calling power/trap plays (like an off tackle trap) I'm thinking Staley (before he was injured) and McGlinchy coming back from his injury is off on the timing of those trap/inside zone plays. In other words the timing is just a bit off. Juszczyk had an interview recently where he was mentioning that the assignment blocking was just off, and so I'm thinking the OLine timing and synchronicity just needs to come back again. Also I think McGlinchy and Staley (before he injured his finger) are still less than 100% and not at full strength yet. It might take another game or two before McGlinchy is truly 100%.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

So just a few pictures of what folks here are chatting about - 1st and 10 at the SF 15 1:13 left in the 1st quarter

Okay NC you might have to correct me here, but I believe this is an IZ running play, and it should be a 5+ yard gain if blocked properly. The scheme is great. Kyle has more more blockers at the LOS than AZ has attackers. They are NOT bringing a safety down to help although it appears that way. Keep your eye on 92 and how he attacks Person.



At the snap, Person is still in his stance and 92 is ALREADY in the A gap and Person is already beaten. Despite this, the play still has a chance because as I said there are more than enough blockers at the point at the attack as you will see to block this effectively. Since 92 already has penetration, the left side of the LOS is not an option at ALL.



Juice is about to take out the DE who's initially unblocked and you see the running lane forming. The only thing that needs to happen is a block on the ILB (McG) and the OLB. Tomlinson is pulling hopefully to take out the OLB and now Dwelley will also pull right behind Tomlinson to clean up any one else. Really brilliant design.



I'm not sure what was supposed to happen but BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley completely run by the OLB. No chip, no shade, no block, NOTHING. At this point the play is dead. The runner has no where to go. Person gets beat to his gap and BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley don't block a free guy running RIGHT AT the RB.



There were a ton of examples where our execution has just been poor. Maybe because this was an IZ play and we're not as adept to running those, but you're not going to get positive yardage when THREE blocks are missed at our around the LOS. Maybe Kittle does what Dwelley AND Tomlinson missed. This should go for a HUGE gain because the only person who be able to stop the runner would be the CB or maybe the safety. However given the speed of our runners, this should be at least 5 - 7 yards on 1st down. This is what the Niners aren't doing anymore that they did against previous opponents. They aren't for whatever reason executing even when the scheme is there to defeat the defense - and it should have.

(PS - I'm still struggling in how to capture the video of this so you all can see it develop in real-time , so if any of you have advice, PM me!)

Well done! I appreciate anyone who puts in the work and who can also show a visual (sticks better). I'm sure JD or thl or another can teach you how to embed the gif. I'll have to watch that play in real time, maybe tomorrow when the all22 comes out to see if that was IZ or not. Others might already have enough to tell.

This is the kind of vision our OL needs.