49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

Welp don't hold your breath. Only way joe isn't on this team the next two yrs is if he retires.

Richburg's contract guarantees he's on the team for atleast a yr or two more.

Kyle doesn't value guards as much as we'd like him to also "investing" high draft capital it's more than likely not happening either (at IOL). Maybe the can trade down a couple times and throw a pick at an IOL in the 2nd or 3rd.

Start looking for athletic run-blocking OGs because that's what he likes (that aren't looked at as 1st rd picks).

If Kyle is designing a position-less offense, (as the article below states) I would think he'll be starting to draft OLinemen higher. One reason is versatility and the other reason is that OLinemen may be more cap friendly. In other words, tweeners like Hurd, and Deebo types who are kind of like both RB and WR, and TE Dwelley/Juszczyk-types who are more receivers/H-backs, than blockers, may require better linemen to execute those varied play actions and alignments. It takes a bit of time for these Dwelly/Hurd/Juszczyk types to get downfield vs faster players like McKinnon/Pettis/Goodwin types. So you need a bit more stoutness on the pass protection side as well as a bit more power on the run-side if they execute man/power plays if defenses are zeroing in on the outside zone schemes.

As NC said, Kyle's been more pass than run, except for this year when the 49ers were dominating time of possession via the run the first half of the season. In one interview, he said he's never played with a top 10 defense, and he's had to adjust. I think one of the adjustments is a much stronger and varied run game. I can see Kyle continuing to devote a lot of draft capital to defense while retaining versatility and cap friendly-ness on offense and a much stronger run dimension to close out games in the 2nd half if the 49ers are ahead and his defense is dominating the opposing offense. In other words, I think Kyle will continue to want to have a 10 defense and he'll augment that defense with a top end run game - and if that's the case, I can see him devoting much higher draft capital to the OLinemen side of the equation.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.
It's a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers' offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on
https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/01/kyle-shanahans-evolving-position-less-offense/

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'd love to see if we can work a trade for OJ Howard in the off season. Throw them a 2020 5th and 4th in 2021. He's done there. Howard was a good blocker at bama and imo just isn't being used correctly in TB.

SF needs to look at safety/WR as well as IOL.

Me too...would love this!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Welp don't hold your breath. Only way joe isn't on this team the next two yrs is if he retires.

Richburg's contract guarantees he's on the team for atleast a yr or two more.

Kyle doesn't value guards as much as we'd like him to also "investing" high draft capital it's more than likely not happening either (at IOL). Maybe the can trade down a couple times and throw a pick at an IOL in the 2nd or 3rd.

Start looking for athletic run-blocking OGs because that's what he likes (that aren't looked at as 1st rd picks).

You're just stating the truth up to this point and the evidence backs that up. And I agree.

The only thing that gives me hope here is that he does spot his weaknesses quickly and adapts. He does switch his personnel targets if it's not working. And he's growing.

I think for 2.5 years now, he's probably over having to scheme around talent on the OL. Now, he can and did scheme around while the rest of the team was being built but now? Maybe he's ready to attack it. A G/T for the future...IOL. All for it esp. if they can trade back. Build an OL that's performing like that Pack OL right now in pass protection if he still wants to pass 60%. Let's build an OL that dictates a defense.

Originally posted by Giedi:
If Kyle is designing a position-less offense, (as the article below states) I would think he'll be starting to draft OLinemen higher. One reason is versatility and the other reason is that OLinemen may be more cap friendly. In other words, tweeners like Hurd, and Deebo types who are kind of like both RB and WR, and TE Dwelley/Juszczyk-types who are more receivers/H-backs, than blockers, may require better linemen to execute those varied play actions and alignments. It takes a bit of time for these Dwelly/Hurd/Juszczyk types to get downfield vs faster players like McKinnon/Pettis/Goodwin types. So you need a bit more stoutness on the pass protection side as well as a bit more power on the run-side if they execute man/power plays if defenses are zeroing in on the outside zone schemes.

As NC said, Kyle's been more pass than run, except for this year when the 49ers were dominating time of possession via the run the first half of the season. In one interview, he said he's never played with a top 10 defense, and he's had to adjust. I think one of the adjustments is a much stronger and varied run game. I can see Kyle continuing to devote a lot of draft capital to defense while retaining versatility and cap friendly-ness on offense and a much stronger run dimension to close out games in the 2nd half if the 49ers are ahead and his defense is dominating the opposing offense. In other words, I think Kyle will continue to want to have a 10 defense and he'll augment that defense with a top end run game - and if that's the case, I can see him devoting much higher draft capital to the OLinemen side of the equation.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.
It's a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers' offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on
https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/01/kyle-shanahans-evolving-position-less-offense/

I'm not following on why having position-less offense = drafting lineman higher?

I mean the draft pay scale is set in place regardless of what position you draft. Lineman get paid a ton of money that includes IOL.

all I'm saying is Kyle and his dad don't value OGs (not saying it's right) There's a history of that. They put money/draft capital into OT/C. IF kyle wants to continue having a top 10 defense that means they would continue putting resources into the defense, not the OL

What I think will happen is they will find scheme fit lineman that don't cost a ton and don't require high draft picks. Until I see Kyle invest a ton into IOL I can't say it's gonna change.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Has Brunskill ever played OG? OT's don't always work at OG. I'd rather just see them draft a OG late or pick up another OG in free agency to compete. Should be a pretty decent market for O-line this upcoming March, but I doubt they spend much there.

Yes. He played a bit in PS and subbed for Person a little bit in season. He also played center in PS.

If Coleman doesn't come back, Brunskill might be the swing next season, although I see him competing with Person to start at RG.

Though the sample size was small, only 284 snaps, he graded out as our best overall OL. His PP is well above anyone else. #12 OT in the league...small sample size.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're just stating the truth up to this point and the evidence backs that up. And I agree.

The only thing that gives me hope here is that he does spot his weaknesses quickly and adapts. He does switch his personnel targets if it's not working. And he's growing.

I think for 2.5 years now, he's probably over having to scheme around talent on the OL. Now, he can and did scheme around while the rest of the team was being built but now? Maybe he's ready to attack it. A G/T for the future...IOL. All for it esp. if they can trade back. Build an OL that's performing like that Pack OL right now in pass protection if he still wants to pass 60%. Let's build an OL that dictates a defense.

Yeah that's all I'm pointing out...not saying it's right or wrong.

2.5 yrs from now maybe he does go IOL early in the draft, they will have a ton of money invested into the defense that's for sure.

You brought up the packers line which is a good OL, let's look at what they "invested" to make it happen....

(from 2010-2019)

David Bakhtiari-4th rd pick
Elgton Jenkins-2nd rd rookie
Corey Linsley-5th rd pick (backup center for yrs)
Billy Turner- was a 3rd pick who is on his 4th team in 5 yrs.
Bryan Bulaga-1st rd pick

overall not a ton IMO

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I've always been a huge fan of building the O and D lines before going after all the glamour positions. It makes it much easier for the QB, backs and receivers if the O line is solid at both run and pass blocking but so many teams ignore this and go for the big name. QB's fail right and left because of poor O lines. Our only problem is we don't have the draft picks to do much in 2020. I'm okay with using our 1st on O line but a lot of people think it should be wide receiver or DB. It will probably come down to who is sitting there when we pick.

Good post and agree.

The more time JG has to throw the easier it is for him to connect w/receivers AND the better the running game is.

Our DLine has improved our whole D especially the secondary.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Yeah that's all I'm pointing out...not saying it's right or wrong.

2.5 yrs from now maybe he does go IOL early in the draft, they will have a ton of money invested into the defense that's for sure.

You brought up the packers line which is a good OL, let's look at what they "invested" to make it happen....

(from 2010-2019)

David Bakhtiari-4th rd pick
Elgton Jenkins-2nd rd rookie
Corey Linsley-5th rd pick (backup center for yrs)
Billy Turner- was a 3rd pick who is on his 4th team in 5 yrs.
Bryan Bulaga-1st rd pick

overall not a ton IMO

So true esp. these days. I'd prefer the odds of high capital but so much goes into finding high quality OL. The key is to keep investing resources there and developing. Like I said in the previous post, if BPA is another position, that's OK as long as they genuinely try to upgrade at least 1, maybe 2 starters and start planning for life after Staley because it ain't Skule unfortunately.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
So just a few pictures of what folks here are chatting about - 1st and 10 at the SF 15 1:13 left in the 1st quarter

Okay NC you might have to correct me here, but I believe this is an IZ running play, and it should be a 5+ yard gain if blocked properly. The scheme is great. Kyle has more more blockers at the LOS than AZ has attackers. They are NOT bringing a safety down to help although it appears that way. Keep your eye on 92 and how he attacks Person.



At the snap, Person is still in his stance and 92 is ALREADY in the A gap and Person is already beaten. Despite this, the play still has a chance because as I said there are more than enough blockers at the point at the attack as you will see to block this effectively. Since 92 already has penetration, the left side of the LOS is not an option at ALL.



Juice is about to take out the DE who's initially unblocked and you see the running lane forming. The only thing that needs to happen is a block on the ILB (McG) and the OLB. Tomlinson is pulling hopefully to take out the OLB and now Dwelley will also pull right behind Tomlinson to clean up any one else. Really brilliant design.



I'm not sure what was supposed to happen but BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley completely run by the OLB. No chip, no shade, no block, NOTHING. At this point the play is dead. The runner has no where to go. Person gets beat to his gap and BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley don't block a free guy running RIGHT AT the RB.



There were a ton of examples where our execution has just been poor. Maybe because this was an IZ play and we're not as adept to running those, but you're not going to get positive yardage when THREE blocks are missed at our around the LOS. Maybe Kittle does what Dwelley AND Tomlinson missed. This should go for a HUGE gain because the only person who be able to stop the runner would be the CB or maybe the safety. However given the speed of our runners, this should be at least 5 - 7 yards on 1st down. This is what the Niners aren't doing anymore that they did against previous opponents. They aren't for whatever reason executing even when the scheme is there to defeat the defense - and it should have.

(PS - I'm still struggling in how to capture the video of this so you all can see it develop in real-time , so if any of you have advice, PM me!)

I think the problem here is still block assignment. Or should blame KS being too greedy. Tomlinson and Dwelley both went for 2nd level blocking without anyone cleaning up the LOS. Juice apparently went for the only blocking target. No one took care of No. 32 who was clearly in the box to begin with.

All in all, I am a believer of jet sweep. Our RBs and WRs are pretty fast. Mixing jet sweeps with lateral throws. it would be more than enough to stretch defense.

Originally posted by NCommand:

So true esp. these days. I'd prefer the odds of high capital but so much goes into finding high quality OL. The key is to keep investing resources there and developing. Like I said in the previous post, if BPA is another position, that's OK as long as they genuinely try to upgrade at least 1, maybe 2 starters and start planning for life after Staley because it ain't Skule unfortunately.

We will see. I wouldn't be shocked if the paid someone to take over Joe's spot in like two yrs.

It's not like Kyle and Co didn't totally revamp the OL from what we had in 2016. It can always get better, I expect them to look for value guys that have a certain skill-set on the interior vs spending top capital. Like I said, I'll keep saying that until Kyle proves me wrong

I'm not sure what was supposed to happen but BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley completely run by the OLB. No chip, no shade, no block, NOTHING. At this point the play is dead. The runner has no where to go. Person gets beat to his gap and BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley don't block a free guy running RIGHT AT the RB.

I was really worried when Jus went down earlier in the season, thinking our run game would crap out. But when you look at it, we've had a ton of rushing yards, including 100+ in basically all games except the last two. We barely broke 100 in the first game vs. Arizona but there is one common denominator here. Kittle. He was there for all the successful run games, he was missing due to the injury when we needed to grind out the clock in the first game vs. Arizona and our run game was awful in the last two games. Though we all knew he could run-block, I think we've underestimated how vital he has been to the rushing attack. I'm betting on the run-game coming out of no-where this weekend and eating up yards vs. GB (If Kittle plays at least 70% of the snaps).

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

So true esp. these days. I'd prefer the odds of high capital but so much goes into finding high quality OL. The key is to keep investing resources there and developing. Like I said in the previous post, if BPA is another position, that's OK as long as they genuinely try to upgrade at least 1, maybe 2 starters and start planning for life after Staley because it ain't Skule unfortunately.

We will see. I wouldn't be shocked if the paid someone to take over Joe's spot in like two yrs.

It's not like Kyle and Co didn't totally revamp the OL from what we had in 2016. It can always get better, I expect them to look for value guys that have a certain skill-set on the interior vs spending top capital. Like I said I'll keep saying that until Kyle proves me wrong

I hear this!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

If Kyle is designing a position-less offense, (as the article below states) I would think he'll be starting to draft OLinemen higher. One reason is versatility and the other reason is that OLinemen may be more cap friendly. In other words, tweeners like Hurd, and Deebo types who are kind of like both RB and WR, and TE Dwelley/Juszczyk-types who are more receivers/H-backs, than blockers, may require better linemen to execute those varied play actions and alignments. It takes a bit of time for these Dwelly/Hurd/Juszczyk types to get downfield vs faster players like McKinnon/Pettis/Goodwin types. So you need a bit more stoutness on the pass protection side as well as a bit more power on the run-side if they execute man/power plays if defenses are zeroing in on the outside zone schemes.

As NC said, Kyle's been more pass than run, except for this year when the 49ers were dominating time of possession via the run the first half of the season. In one interview, he said he's never played with a top 10 defense, and he's had to adjust. I think one of the adjustments is a much stronger and varied run game. I can see Kyle continuing to devote a lot of draft capital to defense while retaining versatility and cap friendly-ness on offense and a much stronger run dimension to close out games in the 2nd half if the 49ers are ahead and his defense is dominating the opposing offense. In other words, I think Kyle will continue to want to have a 10 defense and he'll augment that defense with a top end run game - and if that's the case, I can see him devoting much higher draft capital to the OLinemen side of the equation.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.
It's a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers' offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on
https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/01/kyle-shanahans-evolving-position-less-offense/

I'm not following on why having position-less offense = drafting lineman higher?

I mean the draft pay scale is set in place regardless of what position you draft. Lineman get paid a ton of money that includes IOL.

all I'm saying is Kyle and his dad don't value OGs (not saying it's right) There's a history of that. They put money/draft capital into OT/C. IF kyle wants to continue having a top 10 defense that means they would continue putting resources into the defense, not the OL

What I think will happen is they will find scheme fit lineman that don't cost a ton and don't require high draft picks. Until I see Kyle invest a ton into IOL I can't say it's gonna change.

Basically, if his adjustment to a top 10 defense includes a more powerful rushing attack, then he might want to draft or pay for better athletic linemen, that's all I'm saying.

A powerful 4 minute offense plus a top 10 defense has been a long standing formula for success in all eras since the NFL began.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by illinois9er:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by illinois9er:

Originally posted by Niners_D:

Pro Bowl Fan Voting. The number before their name denotes what place they are currently in the voting process. Are our fans voting for everyone with an SF logo by their name? To me Person is the only one who has performed pretty well all season. Not sure how Staley or McGlinchey have votes since they have missed so many games. IMHO we need to draft a Center in the first round next year.

Guards
10, Person, Mike (49ers)

Tackles
6, Staley, Joe (49ers)
8, McGlinchey, Mike (49ers)

Centers
8, Richburg, Weston (49ers)

I'd be pretty pissed if that happened

Yeah we don't need a center. Richburg is fine.

I do see a ton of mocks that have us drafting Creed Humphrey (who can play all the IOL positions) which I'd be fine with. I'm hoping the can move down (even a couple times) and then go BPA.

While I agree that Richburg does NOT need to be replaced, I definitely think we need competition at backup C. To me, the ideal scenario is to have Brunskill replace Person at OG and have Person be the primary backup on the interior. He is light years better than Garland at both spots obviously.

I'm totally on board with competition at Center but not with a 1st round pick. Anything to keep Garland from seeing the field works for me lol.

LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

So now that qb hits have gone down and you've pivoted to PBWR as the true barometer of OL play, can you elaborate as to why you say MM is has played poorly when PBWR has him the #1 Rated OT?

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

So now that qb hits have gone down and you've pivoted to PBWR as the true barometer of OL play, can you elaborate as to why you say MM is has played poorly when PBWR has him the #1 Rated OT?

They haven't gone down...only when we were rushing for 200 yards initially and passing the fewest in the league. They've gone right back up to a high rate when we've had to pass exclusively. Now, that correlation is to be expected but the amount is back up on par with the 2017 and 2018 numbers, hence, despite a low overall volume of snaps initially, the quality = 25th. I noticed that too. That was jaw dropping and has to be a mistake. MM has been horrendous in PP when he has been on the field. If not, someone needs to look into that PBWR operational definition.