49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

It's 2020 and some 49er fans, of all fans, still can't "see it." Remarkable actually. It's almost like pass protection in a passing league, in a passing offense, is important to keeping QB's healthy and productive and their teams winning. Weird. Who knew?

i guess we will all go to bed at night happy and comforted by the fact that........ most nfl teams have pass protection issues

LOL. Except the playoff teams of course.

What happened with your benchmark team NO?

What do you mean? They've only given up 41 hits, best record in football and have done it with two QB's. They're doing alright although their rookie did get their statue 45 year old QB smashed.

They are doing all right huh? Getting their FQB destroyed 2 weeks in a row and then knocked out and almost ended his year. Lol ok, yeah they are doing great. Just going by your standards

Yeah, I think collectively their OL is just fine. LOL. Odd that a rookie C playing RG in the pros would give up a pressure and hit.

I don't think getting your FQB absolutely wrecked 2 weeks in a row is just fine and certainly does not align with your standards
Odd indeed that a 1st round OL who has experience playing RG and played RG most of camp sucks this bad. Can only imagine what he'd be doing at C. Brees probably would have been knocked out much earlier. It's pretty apparent why McCoy ran away with the starting C job

Yup, they definitely had a couple key breakdowns and that cost them dearly. Granted they're still good enough to win with Taysom "Wounded Duck" Hill and will still probably be the #1 seed when it's all said and done. But like here...those breakdowns can cost you. But if you're trying to compare our pass protecting OL overall to theirs, that's a failed debate.

As to Ruiz himself, yes he took snaps at RG but he's a C through and through. But with no off season and a very complicated system, no way did they feel comfortable with him at C. Maybe in the future.

Not debating anything, just observing the flaws in your OL standards as it applies to NO.
I mean he's a 1st rounder, the standards should be higher. Payton doesn't run some complex scheme like KS, but he does have his QBs get the ball out super quick to avoid hits/sacks and Brees is the master of executing that, so Ruiz should be benefiting from this, but he's not. He's a weak link who may have just derailed their championship season. Will see how he progresses

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

I don't think getting your FQB absolutely wrecked 2 weeks in a row is just fine and certainly does not align with your standards
Odd indeed that a 1st round OL who has experience playing RG and played RG most of camp sucks this bad. Can only imagine what he'd be doing at C. Brees probably would have been knocked out much earlier. It's pretty apparent why McCoy ran away with the starting C job

Truth. I like Ruiz but I thought he was pushed up in the draft due to their being trash at IOL....after watching more of him, I didn't have a 1st rd grade on him.

On a side note, how awesome would we be if we had that vaunted AZ OL I mean they've given up the least amount of QB hits in the league...they gotta be amazing, amirite??

Originally posted by NinerGM:

I don't think you can oversimplify what's being said in the article. Of course the QB has a role in ensuring that there's better pass pro. However, the example given with TB just doesn't apply to the 49ers under KS in like any way. Add a HOF, multi-SB winning, QB who has proven he can cover for avg talent to a team (2020 Bucs) with skill players who helped generate the MOST passing yards in 2019, then add a former all-pro, at one time best TE in all of football. Of COURSE you're going to "elevate" (or cover for) avg. OL talent.

Our offensive personnel may be deeper in terms of the bench, but we're lacking in bona fide NFL starters. At some point attrition to NFL-quality starters in this run-first scheme took its toll (Richburg, Sanders, Staley). Further, replacements signed were about depth, except Trent Williams. Replacement OL personnel in particular doubled-down on decent to good run-blockers, but terrible at PP. This is deliberate in that every OL player brought in save Williams have the identical run-block/pass-block ability profile. (NC has explained this extensively in this thread and others)

So now when teams take away the run and now your run-block-only OL can't generate offense, you must now ask them to play from a known weakness - PP, what opposing DCs want right? The problem I see with our 2020 day-one starters is that they're so bad at PP, they can't hold up their end in a shared role with the QB, the WRs or the play-calling per your article. It's like asking me for my half of the rent when I have no income.

It all comes down to this for me..
Doubling-down on good/great runblockers who have little to no PP ability is a HUGE drag on this offense and means all other factors (QB play, scheme, other skill players) must over-compensate when an opposing team has either the scheme, talent or both to effectively shut down the run. As a coach I'm looking for KS to grow a bit here and Lynch to push Kyle so we find/acquire lineman who are a tad, a TAD more skilled (***not ELITE***) in PP to accompany their great RB skills. I 100% realize this has not been KS approach historically.

You're right - we SHOULD require better QB play, better play from WRs, and better play-calling BUT let's be clear; every time we ask this OL to PP, we're asking them to play from a documented (even before they arrived) weakness. And from what I hear you arguing above, it's the QB who should primarily compensate.

Sure, that's totally possible, but let's be honest - that means we don't have that type of QB and then we have to ask how do we get one because they certainly don't grow on trees.

Back to your Tampa Bay example...

What JG can cover up and what Tom Brady can cover up are galaxies apart. Further, what Airans looks for in an OL and what KS looks for in an OL are also vastly different.

Dude the backbone of Kyle's offense is running the ball. Period. Everything plays off that.

Crazy how when we run the ball well, the PP is better. Crazy when we have at the very least a startable QB they move the ball and PP overall is better... Now imagine is they had the real deal at QB??

Take out the TB example and use really any good QB who had to sit out and watch a backup QB play...in most cases the OL plays worse overall. I mean shouldn't be any different for the OL, right? They're all playing just the same...difference is a backup most often lacks the ability to process everything quickly and correctly. They don't call proper protections.

Without a doubt there are times when the OL simply misses their protection or gets beat. Happens....Happens a whole hell of a lot more when the QB makes improper calls pre/post snap or holds onto the ball too long.

Go watch the Eagles. They're down all kinds of starters on that OL and without question aren't playing well...Wentz is NOT I repeat not doing that OL any favors. Missing reads all game. Plenty of play calls with easy check downs and open guys, yet he's holding onto the ball for the big play. That s**t doesn't show up on the "QB hits" list and is a reason it's kinda of a joke stat.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Hey you're the one who's gone off in several directions after I posted a simple stat..

It's a stat that lacks a s**t TON of context.

You don't want to supply the context, I will

LOL. I have zero issues with you wanting to provide context but there's not a lot need for that stat alone. As to unit pass protection, absolutely and I'm piggy back off your points too.

Originally posted by NCommand:

LOL. I have zero issues with you wanting to provide context but there's not a lot need for that stat alone. As to unit pass protection, absolutely and I'm piggy back off your points too.

Ahh yeah there is lol....I'm not gonna provide yet another list of what goes into PP and how it doesn't all fall on OL with QB hits.

I mean unless you're trying to tell me AZ has the best OL in football?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

LOL. I have zero issues with you wanting to provide context but there's not a lot need for that stat alone. As to unit pass protection, absolutely and I'm piggy back off your points too.

Ahh yeah there is lol....I'm not gonna provide yet another list of what goes into PP and how it doesn't all fall on OL with QB hits.

I mean unless you're trying to tell me AZ has the best OL in football?

The hits are about as black and white as they get. It is what it is. As to WHY they happen, yes...lots of variables but when you're top 5, does it matter anymore? You suck at all of it. LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. I have zero issues with you wanting to provide context but there's not a lot need for that stat alone. As to unit pass protection, absolutely and I'm piggy back off your points too.

Ahh yeah there is lol....I'm not gonna provide yet another list of what goes into PP and how it doesn't all fall on OL with QB hits.

I mean unless you're trying to tell me AZ has the best OL in football?

The hits are about as black and white as they get. It is what it is. As to WHY they happen, yes...lots of variables but when you're top 5, does it matter anymore? You suck at all of it. LOL

Remember 2017 when the OL had Beadles, Fusco and Kilgore. Hoyer and Beathard were getting sacked over and over. When Jimmy was plugged at the end of the year, the sack rate dropped by a mile, even when he had to play against very good defenses. The reason is that, by that time, Jimmy was able tu move around, extend the play, and his quick release let him deliver quick and accurate passes before getting hit.
That's an example of a QB who made a bad OL look better than they actually are.

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

LOL. I have zero issues with you wanting to provide context but there's not a lot need for that stat alone. As to unit pass protection, absolutely and I'm piggy back off your points too.

Ahh yeah there is lol....I'm not gonna provide yet another list of what goes into PP and how it doesn't all fall on OL with QB hits.

I mean unless you're trying to tell me AZ has the best OL in football?

The hits are about as black and white as they get. It is what it is. As to WHY they happen, yes...lots of variables but when you're top 5, does it matter anymore? You suck at all of it. LOL

Remember 2017 when the OL had Beadles, Fusco and Kilgore. Hoyer and Beathard were getting sacked over and over. When Jimmy was plugged at the end of the year, the sack rate dropped by a mile, even when he had to play against very good defenses. The reason is that, by that time, Jimmy was able tu move around, extend the play, and his quick release let him deliver quick and accurate passes before getting hit.

That's an example of a QB who made a bad OL look better than they actually are.

That's very true. A more mobile QB with excellent instincts and who can make off schedule throws absolutely can help mask PP issues. However, that's rarely sustainable as evidenced by so many mobile QB's high up the chart in hits over the course of a season.

So what happened to Jimmy over all this time?

What's happening in AZ is probably a much improved OL, Kyler having eyes in the back of his head, him being so advanced in the system including protection calls and having a top notch weapon to go to when in trouble (and a lot of them in a quick strike offense).

That's why it's important to distinguish between OL talent and unit pass protection.

Originally posted by NCommand:

The hits are about as black and white as they get. It is what it is. As to WHY they happen, yes...lots of variables but when you're top 5, does it matter anymore? You suck at all of it. LOL

HA you're so stubborn. The hits are not even close to black and white....especially when you're applying it to OL play. For sure it plays a part but there's a handful of variables and you simply refuse to acknowledge them.

Qb hits go down last year, no way it's about OL play. QB hits go up it's ALL about OL play...another "want my cake and eat it too" NC scenario

Be better NC...We all know our OL isn't amazing, no need to throw out a stat that has proven to be hogwash when debating how good a OL is overall.

Again based off this stat you want AZ OL? You think they would be amazing in SF? That's what you're telling me?

Originally posted by NCommand:

That's very true. A more mobile QB with excellent instincts and who can make off schedule throws absolutely can help mask PP issues. However, that's rarely sustainable as evidenced by so many mobile QB's high up the chart in hits over the course of a season.

So what happened to Jimmy over all this time?

What's happening in AZ is probably a much improved OL, Kyler having eyes in the back of his head, him being so advanced in the system including protection calls and having a top notch weapon to go to when in trouble (and a lot of them in a quick strike offense).

That's why it's important to distinguish between OL talent and unit pass protection.

What's happening in AZ is scheme and QB play nothing more...only one lineman is graded in the top 10 and it's D. J. Humphries who was looked at as a bust until Murray got there....it's not even about "talent" in AZ. Hell Run-blocking overall is more on lineman imo.

It's not even about being mobile (helps for sure) it's being able to call the correct protections, make the correct reads, process everything quickly consistently. Brady & Manning got a lot of lineman paid.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

The hits are about as black and white as they get. It is what it is. As to WHY they happen, yes...lots of variables but when you're top 5, does it matter anymore? You suck at all of it. LOL

HA you're so stubborn. The hits are not even close to black and white....especially when you're applying it to OL play. For sure it plays a part but there's a handful of variables and you simply refuse to acknowledge them.

Qb hits go down last year, no way it's about OL play. QB hits go up it's ALL about OL play...another "want my cake and eat it too" NC scenario

Be better NC...We all know our OL isn't amazing, no need to throw out a stat that has proven to be hogwash when debating how good a OL is overall.

Again based off this stat you want AZ OL? You think they would be amazing in SF? That's what you're telling me?

Wait, you actually thought the PP was better last year because we ran the most in the NFL?

Lord.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

What's happening in AZ is scheme and QB play nothing more...only one lineman is graded in the top 10 and it's D. J. Humphries who was looked at as a bust until Murray got there....it's not even about "talent" in AZ. Hell Run-blocking overall is more on lineman imo.

It's not even about being mobile (helps for sure) it's being able to call the correct protections, make the correct reads, process everything quickly consistently. Brady & Manning got a lot of lineman paid.

So much LOL in this one.

So in the same system and QB, how'd they do in hits last year?

Originally posted by NCommand:
So much LOL in this one.

So in the same system and QB, how'd they do in hits last year?

I think Murray took the most sacks in the league. I know it was a high number.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by NCommand:

So much LOL in this one.

So in the same system and QB, how'd they do in hits last year?

I think Murray took the most sacks in the league. I know it was a high number.

Looks like we at least get Williams back. Sucks not having aiyuk, DJ or Willis