49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

You should read the QB hits stat more often. The mobile QB's are the ones who get hit the most. And behind THIS OL? So yeah, if that happens, I hope you bring it to me served chilled with extra hot sauce. I'll gladly take my medicine and unlike you, fully admit I was wrong.

I've admitted being wrong a bunch of times...go to the Aiyuk thread buzzy. Go to the Thomas thread.

It's not rocket science that improve play from the QB improves the OL. Like I said go look at that Philly game last week.

Listen both things can be true, better QB play makes the OL better and better play from the OL improves PP....it's not one or the other BUT when you have dogs**t at QB and backs to backs playing on the OL nether are gonna

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Maybe I'm misreading "offensive line is blocking well enough to be a Top-10 unit...?"

How are you reading that bud?

Where in that quote is he saying they are a top 10 OL this year?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
What's also notable is that Seattle gave up 6 hits per game through the first 6 games and were 5-1. They've allowed over 9, almost 9.5(66 in 7 games) per game since and are 4-3.
It's almost like if you allow more QB hits per game yourrecord gets worse....hmmmmm

Shocker stat right there.

You mean pressures/hits might be correlated to more QB mistakes? That protecting a QB is correlated to better QB decisions and higher probability of winning...in a passing league???

Wilson games1-6:
315 YPG
8.6 YPA
22 td 6 int
games 7-13
256 YPG
7.35 YPA
14 td 6 INT

Sooooo, yeah. I'd say qb hits, even on a mobile QB who's a master at avoiding rushers, make a BIG difference.

Contrary to what NY is saying, no, getting Lance or whoever as a rookie won't make this team magically better up front. In fact, it would be a statistical anomaly for things to get better with a rookie.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

How many are mobile like you want?

1st 4 teams have one and INDY and Pitt get rid of the ball quickly. Big Ben TT is 2.29 and IAY is 7. Rivers TTT is 2.51 and his IAY is 7.2 lol

Put that in perspective Jimmy in 2019 was 2.65 TTT and 6.5 IAY, something you called out all yr as to why our OL was doing well.

I think you know that's a lie. I never said that. Haha.

BUT your QB hits stat said they weren't don't bad you used TTT & playcalling to try and push your narrative...where's that narrative now with INDY and Pitt? Big Ben is NOT pushing the ball downfield, 2.29 secs is ridiculous. There OL can't run block to save their lives right now BUT let's talk how good they are. Same with Phil in INDY dump off city as well.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
That's literally (as in the accurate use of the word) what he's saying:

"Why the #49ers' offensive line isn't ENTIRELY to blame for their pass-protection issues: Sacks: 31 (21st in the NFL) Adjusted Sack Rate: 5.1% (7th in the NFL) Offensive Line is blocking well enough be a Top-10 unit, QBs aren't helping them out."

NY why do you always show one example and make this case as if that's the only thing we're seeing? I mean bud, you just posted in the McGlinchey thread where he was beat for an entire series that cost us any chance in winning the game. Does that have nothing to do with the OL? No one is saying that every single time there's a protection breakdown it's 100% the OL's fault, but it is most of the time and in critical game situations.

And let me add my edit that I'm not always saying McG is the single one and only cause of the OL blocking problems before that gets spun.

Hoov - the bolded is a copy and paste. I didn't add a thing. The point is, what stat is "dumb" what stat is "smart?"

I would say the line has been up and down. They've had games where no QB, I don't care if it was Dan Freaking Marino, could've covered up our O-line woes. The Seattle game is one example. It was so bad and egregious because Seattle had been HORRIBLE in pass rush all season and then comes out against us and blitzes a ton and gets home nearly every time.
Fast forward to GB, I saw MUCH better blocking. I only saw 4 plays where the blocking didn't allow Mullens time to throw. We also didn't have any real receivers in the game, but I still saw Mullens missing guys wide open at the 2.8+ second mark. That's a QB making his O-line look bad, not by lack of mobility but by lack of ability to see the field and make the throw. Similar situation in the Buffalo game.

In those instances, yes better QB play would make the QB hits stat go down. BUT, it's not in the need for a mobile QB like some are saying, it's more in a QB's ability to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
How many are mobile like you want?

1st 4 teams have one and INDY and Pitt get rid of the ball quickly. Big Ben TT is 2.29 and IAY is 7. Rivers TTT is 2.51 and his IAY is 7.2 lol

Put that in perspective Jimmy in 2019 was 2.65 TTT and 6.5 IAY, something you called out all yr as to why our OL was doing well.

I think you know that's a lie. I never said that. Haha.

BUT your QB hits stat said they weren't don't bad you used TTT & playcalling to try and push your narrative...where's that narrative now with INDY and Pitt? Big Ben is NOT pushing the ball downfield, 2.29 secs is ridiculous. There OL can't run block to save their lives right now BUT let's talk how good they are. Same with Phil in INDY dump off city as well.

Then let's extrapolate your logic here to the Jimmy thread. You have said all season that Shanny doesn't call deep plays because he doesn't trust Jimmy.

Is PITT calling a quick throw stuff because they don't trust Ben to throw deep? That's laughable if you think so(not saying you are, just pointing out how that's obviously not the case since Ben has always had one of the best deep balls in the league).
It's almost like if an O-line can't hold up long, OC's don't like to call deep, longer developing plays. They look to get the quick passing game going.

Our TTT from 2019 is slightly skewed IMO because of the large % of PA which always take a little longer in TTT when the QB has to first turn around. I believe we led the league in PA passes from under center last year.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Wilson games1-6:
315 YPG
8.6 YPA
22 td 6 int
games 7-13
256 YPG
7.35 YPA
14 td 6 INT

Sooooo, yeah. I'd say qb hits, even on a mobile QB who's a master at avoiding rushers, make a BIG difference.

Contrary to what NY is saying, no, getting Lance or whoever as a rookie won't make this team magically better up front. In fact, it would be a statistical anomaly for things to get better with a rookie.

LOL in case you didn't know Wilson holds onto the ball almost longer than ANY QB in the league this yr at 2.96 secs...part of the reason his QB hits are higher (outside of having a butt OL which he always has) IS because he simply tries to make the big plays all the damn time. He's never checking it down he's IAY is 8.7 It's the same thing with Watson. They have to because the rest of the team is trash.

OL is just a part of pass-pro, when your QB don't take the easy throw you're putting even MORE stress on the OL. I just want a QB that's able to move around enough to avoid some hits. Some who actually has the ability to extend a play. I'm not asking him to do that EVERY damn down, neither is Kyle.

Jimmy and the play-calling helped the OL last yr...never said it didn't. I still want that BUT I also want a QB that will actually push the ball downfield and can move enough to freaking help himself out.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

How many are mobile like you want?

1st 4 teams have one and INDY and Pitt get rid of the ball quickly. Big Ben TT is 2.29 and IAY is 7. Rivers TTT is 2.51 and his IAY is 7.2 lol

Put that in perspective Jimmy in 2019 was 2.65 TTT and 6.5 IAY, something you called out all yr as to why our OL was doing well.

I think you know that's a lie. I never said that. Haha.

BUT your QB hits stat said they weren't don't bad you used TTT & playcalling to try and push your narrative...where's that narrative now with INDY and Pitt? Big Ben is NOT pushing the ball downfield, 2.29 secs is ridiculous. There OL can't run block to save their lives right now BUT let's talk how good they are. Same with Phil in INDY dump off city as well.

I brought up the TTT when both our T's were out and Kyle absolutely had to work around that. Like he did earlier in the year with that game he called 8 straight passes for negative yards. That was out of necessity (QB protection).

The TTT can certainly help too but it's an isolated average stat. You and I can take one look at it and tell what kind of offense is run, age of the QB, etc.

When I refer to TTT it's to demonstrate all 3 of our QB's are usually sound 2.57 across the board. That helps lower the hits. The difference with Garoppolo is his snap release WHILE getting hit. He was STILL finding success despite being under duress under that 2.57 and getting hit.

It was the volume and success of the run game that had the biggest difference in hard counts for QB hits last year.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Wilson games1-6:
315 YPG
8.6 YPA
22 td 6 int
games 7-13
256 YPG
7.35 YPA
14 td 6 INT

Sooooo, yeah. I'd say qb hits, even on a mobile QB who's a master at avoiding rushers, make a BIG difference.

Contrary to what NY is saying, no, getting Lance or whoever as a rookie won't make this team magically better up front. In fact, it would be a statistical anomaly for things to get better with a rookie.

LOL in case you didn't know Wilson holds onto the ball almost longer than ANY QB in the league this yr at 2.96 secs...part of the reason his QB hits are higher (outside of having a butt OL which he always has) IS because he simply tries to make the big plays all the damn time. He's never checking it down he's IAY is 8.7 It's the same thing with Watson. They have to because the rest of the team is trash.

OL is just a part of pass-pro, when your QB don't take the easy throw you're putting even MORE stress on the OL. I just want a QB that's able to move around enough to avoid some hits. Some who actually has the ability to extend a play. I'm not asking him to do that EVERY damn down, neither is Kyle.

Jimmy and the play-calling helped the OL last yr...never said it didn't. I still want that BUT I also want a QB that will actually push the ball downfield and can move enough to freaking help himself out.

I've been up in Seattle for a month now. I'm stuck watching them. Wilson has been getting killed and killed inside the pocket. In fact, he's usually very smart outside the pocket either throwing away or striking with success (legs or passes) and he takes less hits that way.

His unit pass protection has absolutely been failing him and I've got an army of 2012's to verify that. LOL

And it'll cost them in the playoffs like every year.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Wilson games1-6:
315 YPG
8.6 YPA
22 td 6 int
games 7-13
256 YPG
7.35 YPA
14 td 6 INT

Sooooo, yeah. I'd say qb hits, even on a mobile QB who's a master at avoiding rushers, make a BIG difference.

Contrary to what NY is saying, no, getting Lance or whoever as a rookie won't make this team magically better up front. In fact, it would be a statistical anomaly for things to get better with a rookie.

LOL in case you didn't know Wilson holds onto the ball almost longer than ANY QB in the league this yr at 2.96 secs...part of the reason his QB hits are higher (outside of having a butt OL which he always has) IS because he simply tries to make the big plays all the damn time. He's never checking it down he's IAY is 8.7 It's the same thing with Watson. They have to because the rest of the team is trash.

OL is just a part of pass-pro, when your QB don't take the easy throw you're putting even MORE stress on the OL. I just want a QB that's able to move around enough to avoid some hits. Some who actually has the ability to extend a play. I'm not asking him to do that EVERY damn down, neither is Kyle.

Jimmy and the play-calling helped the OL last yr...never said it didn't. I still want that BUT I also want a QB that will actually push the ball downfield and can move enough to freaking help himself out.

I do know that Wilson holds the ball longer. I think what you're failing to see is it's very, very, very rare to see a QB who is both highly mobile AND willing to take checkdowns AND has the ability to throw the ball deep all the time. You're talking generational, HOF talent like a Steve Young.

You keep saying you don't want a perfect QB but everything you describe is wanting a Steve Young 1994 clone.

What we've been arguing about for the past 3 months is that I don't see logical harmony. You're saying on the one hand that the QB is making the O-line look bad. Ok.
Then saying to make the O-line look better we need a mobile QB who can extend plays. Ok
Then you're saying we need a QB to throw it deep. Ok
Then you're saying other QB's aren't throwing deep or are throwing quick because their line sucks. Ok
Then you're saying we need a QB who will check it down on the regular to get the ball out quicker. Ok.

So, the QB isn't making checkdowns or pushing the ball downfield because our O-line isn't good enough but also because the QB isn't checking it down the line looks worse so we need a QB who can extend plays but then need a QB who will check it down to make the O-line look better but then hold it longer to push the ball deep.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Then let's extrapolate your logic here to the Jimmy thread. You have said all season that Shanny doesn't call deep plays because he doesn't trust Jimmy.

Is PITT calling a quick throw stuff because they don't trust Ben to throw deep? That's laughable if you think so(not saying you are, just pointing out how that's obviously not the case since Ben has always had one of the best deep balls in the league).
It's almost like if an O-line can't hold up long, OC's don't like to call deep, longer developing plays. They look to get the quick passing game going.

Our TTT from 2019 is slightly skewed IMO because of the large % of PA which always take a little longer in TTT when the QB has to first turn around. I believe we led the league in PA passes from under center last year.

First off, we've seen Big Ben actually be able to throw the ball downfield. Jimmy overall we have NOT and for the most part it hasn't been great...Not really a comparison. Second Big Ben had shoulder surgery and is not the thrower he once was and that OL overall isn't great like NC thinks it is.

I mean a lot of teams run some sort of play-action or RPO, SF was 9th in PA attempts last yr

Originally posted by NinerGM:
100% agreed JD. By no means am I saying that QB play can't be better. How I'm evaluating our entire QB situation this year was that we lost our starter due to injury on a play where pass protection broke down, he threw the ball before he wanted to and was crushed. What I continued to see, even to a certain degree with Mullens major breakdowns in an area whether it was on the edge (McG) or up the middle with Compton or with Brunskill playing out of position at OG/OC or Grasu at center. There hasn't been stability even with guys play at position on the OL. When they've played well, unlike last year, they've not been able to build on that progress.

Center I see as being the chain-reaction injury that is for me the cause of our moving guys around to cover. When we knew the severity of Richuburg's injury, I would have preferred that we not restructure Richburgs contract and move on or at the very least consider a blockbuster deal where we try and pry another team's starter or up-and-coming young player with picks and cash. OC for me is that important to Kyle's system.

We need better QB play. However I can't see that play improve or confidence grow or rapport with WRs build with shakey, inconsistent blocking. This doesn't change, as you've mention with a rook however mobile.

Exactly. It's been quoted here before but the protections calls are almost entirely on the center to make because Kyle asks so much of his QB's in the run game as far as checks. He wants them watching the secondary more to see if they should check to a run or what the coverages are. Until our Center starts making better calls, like in the NO game where we could NOT pick up slot blitzes well at all, our entire offense is going to be flat.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

You should read the QB hits stat more often. The mobile QB's are the ones who get hit the most. And behind THIS OL? So yeah, if that happens, I hope you bring it to me served chilled with extra hot sauce. I'll gladly take my medicine and unlike you, fully admit I was wrong.

I've admitted being wrong a bunch of times...go to the Aiyuk thread buzzy. Go to the Thomas thread.

It's not rocket science that improve play from the QB improves the OL. Like I said go look at that Philly game last week.

Listen both things can be true, better QB play makes the OL better and better play from the OL improves PP....it's not one or the other BUT when you have dogs**t at QB and backs to backs playing on the OL nether are gonna

They both can't be true if you don't admit it. You're only NOW admitting one side here like every year coming in. If I see you put the same conviction into beefing up the unit pass protection like I do with a new rookie QB, there'd be zero debate here.

But you're perfectly fine with the OL every year...maybe add a "day three pick."

If you really want to beef up both, I'm behind you all day every day.

As to Garoppolo, what if we let him go and he goes to a healthy team, one with far better unit pass protection and consistent healthy and talented weapons...and balls out?

Originally posted by NCommand:
I've been up in Seattle for a month now. I'm stuck watching them. Wilson has been getting killed and killed inside the pocket. In fact, he's usually very smart outside the pocket either throwing away or striking with success (legs or passes) and he takes less hits that way.

His unit pass protection has absolutely been failing him and I've got an army of 2012's to verify that. LOL

And it'll cost them in the playoffs like every year.

His OL has NEVER been good, he's constantly being hit...that's really not shocking at all. He HAS also held onto the ball longer than just about any QB over his career in the NFL. He has too because his offense outside of his is trash. Dude is constantly asked to pull s**t out of his ass. Explain AZ being #1 then? You don't think that OL is actually good do you?

Go watch Hurts vs NO last sunday...there OL is worse, not one single sack vs that defense. QB play helps and there's not a damn thing you can say otherwise that will change my mind on this topic.

I don't understand what you honestly think I'm saying, this isn't QB vs OL. I know the OL isn't a top 10 unit it would be foolish to say that. I'm saying better QB play can help a OL. That should be common knowledge. I'm saying I would prefer to move off Jimmy get that cash invest back into the team (yes into the OL) and roll with a rookie QB who Kyle can mold is offense around.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Then let's extrapolate your logic here to the Jimmy thread. You have said all season that Shanny doesn't call deep plays because he doesn't trust Jimmy.

Is PITT calling a quick throw stuff because they don't trust Ben to throw deep? That's laughable if you think so(not saying you are, just pointing out how that's obviously not the case since Ben has always had one of the best deep balls in the league).
It's almost like if an O-line can't hold up long, OC's don't like to call deep, longer developing plays. They look to get the quick passing game going.

Our TTT from 2019 is slightly skewed IMO because of the large % of PA which always take a little longer in TTT when the QB has to first turn around. I believe we led the league in PA passes from under center last year.

First off, we've seen Big Ben actually be able to throw the ball downfield. Jimmy overall we have NOT and for the most part it hasn't been great...Not really a comparison. Second Big Ben had shoulder surgery and is not the thrower he once was and that OL overall isn't great like NC thinks it is.

I mean a lot of teams run some sort of play-action or RPO, SF was 9th in PA attempts last yr

First, it was elbow surgery, not shoulder, in August Ben said his elbow felt, "really, really good" and was throwing a lot. His injury has happened to a number of baseball players and they typically fully recover.

Second, where did I compare Jimmy and Ben's abilities to throw deep? Missed that one where I said that.
What I said was, is Pitt not throwing deep because they don't trust Ben?
If you say they don't, then that defeats your argument about their O-line.

Which is it? Is NC right that Pitt's O-line is really good and Pitt doesn't trust Ben to throw deep or is it that Pitt's o-line is bad and their OC doesn't trust the O-line to throw deep?

THAT is my argument.

Also, I didn't mention ALL PA attempts. Read it again, I said play action UNDER CENTER which take longer to develop. Surely you know that there's a difference in time to make an Read option style run fake or run fake out of shutgun vs under center when the QB fakes an extended handoff, right?