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Dec 16, 2020 at 6:33 PM
So glad that we gave away Trent Brown.
Dec 16, 2020 at 7:18 PM
Originally posted by IrishCrnjo:
So glad that we gave away Trent Brown.

How is he doing now?
Dec 16, 2020 at 7:20 PM
Originally posted by IrishCrnjo:
So glad that we gave away Trent Brown.

Do you mean the guy that has turned into the Dee Ford of OL in Las Vegas? Raider fans hate him with a passion. The dude got paid and doesn't give a f**k anymore. He's played 3 games this year and only finished 1 of those.






[ Edited by Heroism on Dec 16, 2020 at 7:28 PM ]
Dec 16, 2020 at 7:45 PM
I bet you that trent brown doesn't have the raiders cucked like dee ford does.
Dec 16, 2020 at 9:09 PM
Trent Brown won a ring with the PAtriots and got payed a fat contract by the Raiders. He is a happy man.
And yes, the 49ers traded him away because he was in horrible shape. I remember he didn't finish the 2017 season and Jimmy G won those games with Zane Beadles as his RT. Those were the times when Jimmy could move around and extend plays.
Dec 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM
Originally posted by richterkbelmont:
Trent Brown won a ring with the PAtriots and got payed a fat contract by the Raiders. He is a happy man.
And yes, the 49ers traded him away because he was in horrible shape. I remember he didn't finish the 2017 season and Jimmy G won those games with Zane Beadles as his RT. Those were the times when Jimmy could move around and extend plays.

And take a hit
Dec 16, 2020 at 9:50 PM
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 64,759
Originally posted by pdizo916:
I bet you that trent brown doesn't have the raiders cucked like dee ford does.

At least Ford isn't a fat over weight slob.
Dec 17, 2020 at 6:42 AM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
It's been a s**t year across the board.

Respect. So what you're saying is they just weren't good enough this year (for whatever reasons).

But did anyone tell NY85?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

No one is saying that we have some elite OL, it's also not as horrible as fans think.



And so the back-and-forth continues.

All I've stated is QB play matters...you keep pretending like it doesn't...It's constantly but but hey look at QB hits, yet not even talking about context of everything.

There's literally nothing else to say right now. I don't even know who's playing center this week and we have yet another guy on COVID who's probably not playing (Colton).

YEAH it's been a s**t yr for everything on this team, NOT just the OL. Maybe acknowledge that and we can move on to some positive discussions instead of going around in circles every damn day.
Dec 17, 2020 at 6:55 AM
Originally posted by jonnydel:
"BUT your QB hits stat said they weren't don't bad you used TTT & playcalling to try and push your narrative...where's that narrative now with INDY and Pitt? Big Ben is NOT pushing the ball downfield, 2.29 secs is ridiculous. There OL can't run block to save their lives right now BUT let's talk how good they are. Same with Phil in INDY dump off city as well."

That was you in the thread that I originally was commenting on. So, no, I was not the one bringing up Ben not throwing deep. My point is that you're not using consistent logic.
When Big Ben doesn't throw deep and you're arguing with NC, you say it's because of the O-line and so Pitt is throwing quick all the time, making the O-line look better. When Jimmy does it, you've said it's because Kyle doesn't trust Jimmy to throw it deep. You can't have it both ways. You can't use the same data to argue both sides of this.

So, who are you conceding to, me or NC? Because your logic doesn't carry across both of the arguments you've tried to make here.

Where the f**k did I SAY the OL was good in Pitt? LOL I'm showing that QB hit stats are trash! Bringing it up to backup a claim without context is dumb...it's an empty stat. INDY does dump the ball off a ton which is based more on the QB than anything.

I also believe the Big Ben is NOT Big Ben of old. He can't throw downfield like he once could.....BUT hear me out we actually SAW him throw it downfield a s**t ton through out his career...Jimmy, not even close and when he did for the most part it was a subpar attempt. He's simple not great at going downfield. It's not the end of the world and you don't have to pretend like it's something else outside of the actual QB throwing the damn ball. Yes I can say our OL isn't some elite PP unit...shouldn't have to be to throw downfield either. We see plenty of teams with subpar OL talent still pushing it downfield.

I'm not conceding to s**t lol...I'm pointing out the QB hit stat is a junk stat WHICH you just backed up AND I'm saying Jimmy is not good at pushing the ball downfield BECAUSE we've all seen the attempts when he does throw it downfield. The scheme being run is based around what our QB can do. You're being ridiculous if you think Kyle would run a horizonal based passing scheme if he had a QB like Allen/Mahomes/Rogers behind center. We've seen it with Ryan and RG3. They still took shots downfield. s**t I feel like when Beathard played they actually took some shots. Not saying he's even close to as good as Jimmy overall as a QB, he just happens to be better on the long ball.

Good HCs scheme an offense based on the strengths of their personnel WHICH includes the QB. Jimmy has his strengths and weaknesses, he isn't some complete elite QB, like you keep saying he is.
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Dec 17, 2020 at 7:06 AM ]
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:00 AM
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by IrishCrnjo:
So glad that we gave away Trent Brown.

Do you mean the guy that has turned into the Dee Ford of OL in Las Vegas? Raider fans hate him with a passion. The dude got paid and doesn't give a f**k anymore. He's played 3 games this year and only finished 1 of those.







and that was a lot of people's fears...getting paid then becoming a lazy s**t. Another horrible contract for a lineman.

It's one position IMO where you have to be super careful who you pay....good QB play helps these dudes out. I mean how many linemen has Brady helped get paid?

Just between Nate Solder and Trent Brown you're looking at $125M LOL. Both have been junk on their new teams.
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:01 AM
Originally posted by NYniner85:
All I've stated is QB play matters...you keep pretending like it doesn't...It's constantly but but hey look at QB hits, yet not even talking about context of everything.

There's literally nothing else to say right now. I don't even know who's playing center this week and we have yet another guy on COVID who's probably not playing (Colton).

YEAH it's been a s**t yr for everything on this team, NOT just the OL. Maybe acknowledge that and we can move on to some positive discussions instead of going around in circles every damn day.

I've backed your claim for wanting a more mobile QB with excellent pocket feel and an ability to make plays outside the phone booth (WCO - timing offense).

We're still talking about pass protection because until that's fixed, your rookie QB will only be able to do so much. As a rookie, he's going to have a TON on his plate already and an inconsistent pocket is only going to magnify things.

Like with Garoppolo, I want this kid to have a grand shot of reaching his ceiling by developing properly over time.

I'm genuinely concerned about Kyle's views on pass protection. It's a clear blind spot and I'm fearful it's going to wreck the next QB too.
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:12 AM
Originally posted by NYniner85:
You're being ridiculous if you think Kyle would run a horizonal based passing scheme if he had a QB like Allen/Mahomes/Rogers behind center. We've seen it with Ryan and RG3.

I thought this as well but WRATH has done a ton of research on this for both Shanahan's and has found this is a fallacy...even with RGIII and Ryan. With RGII you'd expect far more deep shots shots because running QB's almost always scramble and throw deep. Ryan? A really good deep ball thrower with one of the best and biggest WR's of all time.

Here's just a snippet of his findings:

I mean look strictly at Matt Ryan vs Jimmy G in Kyle's offense. When you take playoff games included and just take games that each started and completed the sample is 35 games for Matt Ryan and Jimmy G is 29 games.

If you assume their 15+ air yard profile is similar (namely 15.8% for Matt, Jimmy G is 14.3%) and their production is the same on those attempts. I then ask how important is 15+ air yards when Jimmy in his completed games guides an offense to 28.6 ppg and Matt Ryan's was 28.2 ppg.

The above is why I always laugh at guys that preach air yards. It sounds like it should mean something but IMO all the evidence I've seen shows there's not as high of a correlation of scoring and deeper passing🤷🏼‍♂️.

Here's something else to chew on.....Steve Young's completion % on 15+ air yards throws from '94-'96 was 47.4%. Garoppolo in his Niners career is 46.0%.

In short, the short, intermediate and 15+ AY's have been wildly consistent over careers for Mike & Kyle so this isn't a QB-thing...it's a Shanahan-thing. They control the offense and those limited play calls for 15+ deeper shots. It reminds me so much of HaRoman who had Randy Moss and never took a single deep shot to him.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2020 at 7:15 AM ]
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:17 AM
Originally posted by NCommand:
I've backed your claim for wanting a more mobile QB with excellent pocket feel and an ability to make plays outside the phone booth (WCO - timing offense).

We're still talking about pass protection because until that's fixed, your rookie QB will only be able to do so much. As a rookie, he's going to have a TON on his plate already and an inconsistent pocket is only going to magnify things.

Like with Garoppolo, I want this kid to have a grand shot of reaching his ceiling by developing properly over time.

I'm genuinely concerned about Kyle's views on pass protection. It's a clear blind spot and I'm fearful it's going to wreck the next QB too.

PP and QB's ability to do everything required of a QB go hand in hand.

Jimmy is in his 7th yr in the league...if he need a picture perfect OL, WRs, TEs in order to be very successful well good luck with that.

I'm not concerned at all about how Kyle views PP. He values tackles and center. He uses personnel groups that throw more blockers on the field then anyone. He runs the ball a ton which helps with PP and he used RPOs and play-action a s**t ton which in itself is a form of PP through play-calling. He calls bootlegs and moves the pocket. He's invested in play-makers that can get the ball quickly and make plays etc etc....

They need a QB that can run the offense he actually wants to run. He needs a QB that's not gonna forced more 8+ men in the box then anyone else because they know our QB isn't gonna throw it more than 5 yards. They need a QB that teams can't blitz on all game. They need a QB that is mobile enough that a team can't just play straight up man coverage all game because there's some sort of thread to run.

Yes I agree we need more fresh bodies on the OL, we need young guys to develop. We can't expect success trotting out a 4th string center, 3rd string RG and a backup QB.
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:18 AM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
You're being ridiculous if you think Kyle would run a horizonal based passing scheme if he had a QB like Allen/Mahomes/Rogers behind center. We've seen it with Ryan and RG3.

I thought this as well but WRATH has done a ton of research on this for both Shanahan's and has found this is a fallacy...even with RGIII and Ryan. With RGII you'd expect far more deep shots shots because running QB's almost always scramble and throw deep. Ryan? A really good deep ball thrower with one of the best and biggest WR's of all time.

Here's just a snippet of his findings:

I mean look strictly at Matt Ryan vs Jimmy G in Kyle's offense. When you take playoff games included and just take games that each started and completed the sample is 35 games for Matt Ryan and Jimmy G is 29 games.

If you assume their 15+ air yard profile is similar (namely 15.8% for Matt, Jimmy G is 14.3%) and their production is the same on those attempts. I then ask how important is 15+ air yards when Jimmy in his completed games guides an offense to 28.6 ppg and Matt Ryan's was 28.2 ppg.

The above is why I always laugh at guys that preach air yards. It sounds like it should mean something but IMO all the evidence I've seen shows there's not as high of a correlation of scoring and deeper passing🤷🏼‍♂️.

Here's something else to chew on.....Steve Young's completion % on 15+ air yards throws from '94-'96 was 47.4%. Garoppolo in his Niners career is 46.0%.

In short, the short, intermediate and 15+ AY's have been wildly consistent over careers for Mike & Kyle so this isn't a QB-thing...it's a Shanahan-thing. They control the offense and those limited play calls for 15+ deeper shots. It reminds me so much of HaRoman who had Randy Moss and never took a single deep shot to him.

actually he did, but just one time.... and it was a completion..

which remind me, when was the last time we actually completed a long pass for a TD !!!???
Dec 17, 2020 at 7:20 AM
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by IrishCrnjo:
So glad that we gave away Trent Brown.

Do you mean the guy that has turned into the Dee Ford of OL in Las Vegas? Raider fans hate him with a passion. The dude got paid and doesn't give a f**k anymore. He's played 3 games this year and only finished 1 of those.







Yup. It sounds like his laissez faire attitude has translated over to LV. Moving on from him was the right move esp. given he wasn't a great fit for our OZ scheme although he was used properly in NE and played terrific. He earned that contract but LV is now paying for the poor character side right now. And it's costly. It sounds like his injuries continued as well (torn labrum + surgery here).
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2020 at 7:20 AM ]
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