49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NYniner85:

PP and QB's ability to do everything required of a QB go hand in hand.

I'm not concerned at all about how Kyle views PP.

You should be if you want a rookie QB.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
You're being ridiculous if you think Kyle would run a horizonal based passing scheme if he had a QB like Allen/Mahomes/Rogers behind center. We've seen it with Ryan and RG3.

I thought this as well but WRATH has done a ton of research on this for both Shanahan's and has found this is a fallacy...even with RGIII and Ryan. With RGII you'd expect far more deep shots shots because running QB's almost always scramble and throw deep. Ryan? A really good deep ball thrower with one of the best and biggest WR's of all time.

Here's just a snippet of his findings:

I mean look strictly at Matt Ryan vs Jimmy G in Kyle's offense. When you take playoff games included and just take games that each started and completed the sample is 35 games for Matt Ryan and Jimmy G is 29 games.

If you assume their 15+ air yard profile is similar (namely 15.8% for Matt, Jimmy G is 14.3%) and their production is the same on those attempts. I then ask how important is 15+ air yards when Jimmy in his completed games guides an offense to 28.6 ppg and Matt Ryan's was 28.2 ppg.

The above is why I always laugh at guys that preach air yards. It sounds like it should mean something but IMO all the evidence I've seen shows there's not as high of a correlation of scoring and deeper passing🤷🏼‍♂️.

Here's something else to chew on.....Steve Young's completion % on 15+ air yards throws from '94-'96 was 47.4%. Garoppolo in his Niners career is 46.0%.

In short, the short, intermediate and 15+ AY's have been wildly consistent over careers for Mike & Kyle so this isn't a QB-thing...it's a Shanahan-thing. They control the offense and those limited play calls for 15+ deeper shots. It reminds me so much of HaRoman who had Randy Moss and never took a single deep shot to him.

IAY avg intended air yards:
Jimmy G 2019 IAY 6.5 yards
Matt Ryan's 2016 IAY 9 yards
*not even remotely close anything over 8 yards is good.

AYD avg air yards differential
Jimmy G 2019 AYD -1.1
Matt Ryan's 2016 AYD -1.8
* jimmy was worst in league, Ryan was 5th worst so closer there

AYTS avg air yard to the sticks
JImmy G 2019 -2.5
Matt Ryan 2016 -0.2
*Jimmy 2nd worst in league, Ryan middle of the pack

In short NO actually they haven't been the same....and what people misinterpret when talking about "air yards" is the simple fact that being able to use the whole field leads to a more balanced team overall. Less stacked boxes, running the ball more efficiently, more stress on a defense, hell even using the PI rule for a advantage for a change.

I'm not asking for a bruce arians offense lol. I'm asking for a QB that at least has the ability to push the ball downfield, someone who can extend plays and put MORE stress on a defense NOT make s**t easier. Mike Shananhan had Elway for yrs and while it wasn't a throw downfield every play, teams at minimum had to respect that it CAN happen at any point in the game.

FWIW Moss was 35 when we had him lol.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
PP and QB's ability to do everything required of a QB go hand in hand.

I'm not concerned at all about how Kyle views PP.

You should be if you want a rookie QB.

and you should read the rest of the post instead of deleting it.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

You're being ridiculous if you think Kyle would run a horizonal based passing scheme if he had a QB like Allen/Mahomes/Rogers behind center. We've seen it with Ryan and RG3.

I thought this as well but WRATH has done a ton of research on this for both Shanahan's and has found this is a fallacy...even with RGIII and Ryan. With RGII you'd expect far more deep shots shots because running QB's almost always scramble and throw deep. Ryan? A really good deep ball thrower with one of the best and biggest WR's of all time.

Here's just a snippet of his findings:

I mean look strictly at Matt Ryan vs Jimmy G in Kyle's offense. When you take playoff games included and just take games that each started and completed the sample is 35 games for Matt Ryan and Jimmy G is 29 games.

If you assume their 15+ air yard profile is similar (namely 15.8% for Matt, Jimmy G is 14.3%) and their production is the same on those attempts. I then ask how important is 15+ air yards when Jimmy in his completed games guides an offense to 28.6 ppg and Matt Ryan's was 28.2 ppg.

The above is why I always laugh at guys that preach air yards. It sounds like it should mean something but IMO all the evidence I've seen shows there's not as high of a correlation of scoring and deeper passing🤷🏼‍♂️.

Here's something else to chew on.....Steve Young's completion % on 15+ air yards throws from '94-'96 was 47.4%. Garoppolo in his Niners career is 46.0%.

In short, the short, intermediate and 15+ AY's have been wildly consistent over careers for Mike & Kyle so this isn't a QB-thing...it's a Shanahan-thing. They control the offense and those limited play calls for 15+ deeper shots. It reminds me so much of HaRoman who had Randy Moss and never took a single deep shot to him.

IAY avg intended air yards:
Jimmy G 2019 IAY 6.5 yards
Matt Ryan's 2016 IAY 9 yards
*not even remotely close anything over 8 yards is good.

AYD avg air yards differential
Jimmy G 2019 AYD -1.1
Matt Ryan's 2016 AYD -1.8
* jimmy was worst in league, Ryan was 5th worst so closer there

AYTS avg air yard to the sticks
JImmy G 2019 -2.5
Matt Ryan 2016 -0.2
*Jimmy 2nd worst in league, Ryan middle of the pack

In short NO actually they haven't been the same....and what people misinterpret when talking about "air yards" is the simple fact that being able to use the whole field leads to a more balanced team overall. Less stacked boxes, running the ball more efficiently, more stress on a defense, hell even using the PI rule for a advantage for a change.

I'm not asking for a bruce arians offense lol. I'm asking for a QB that at least has the ability to push the ball downfield, someone who can extend plays and put MORE stress on a defense NOT make s**t easier. Mike Shananhan had Elway for yrs and while it wasn't a throw downfield every play, teams at minimum had to respect that it CAN happen at any point in the game.

FWIW Moss was 35 when we had him lol.

LOL. Very disingenuous. You compared one historic year to 2019 when Garoppolo virtually had the fewest passing attempts in the NFL.

He touched on that year as well but looked at total career and across all Shanahan offenses and QB's who ran those offenses.

The point still stands despite the cherry pick.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

PP and QB's ability to do everything required of a QB go hand in hand.

I'm not concerned at all about how Kyle views PP.

You should be if you want a rookie QB.

and you should read the rest of the post instead of deleting it.

Lol I'm just one of those guys that don't think the OL is AS BAD as most think. I think as a group it's pretty regular. I think there's a lot of bad OL around the league. I think 49ers are hurt more from teams being able to load the box and pin their ears back. Just my opinion

— Crocky (@eric_crocker) December 17, 2020

I focused on what YOU should be most concerned about.

To avoid admitting how poor this unit pass protection has been (again), you've already pivoted from no off season and COVID excuses to no continuity on the OL to blaming one position group (C) to needing to run more to be better in PP to needing to throw more deep balls to now needing a rookie QB to mask the turd with lipstick on it.

You're now also ignoring Kyle's offensive system and play calling tendencies.

What's next?

All I'm saying is, whatever the scenario (8 men in the box when only Aiyuk or Deebo is the only weapon on the field a DC needs to worry about and knowing Kyle's offensive tendencies so you can sit down as defenders under 15 yards and play downhill), next year, if you want a rookie QB who's going to be learning a brand new foreign language just to be able to call a play in the huddle and who's probably used to rarely being touched in college, unit pass protection HERE should be your #1 priority.

I hate to break it to you but a more mobile QB can only hide so much over time...like Kyle and his scheme.

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Very disingenuous. You compared one historic year to 2019 when Garoppolo virtually had the fewest passing attempts in the NFL.

He touched on that year as well but looked at total career and across all Shanahan offenses and QB's who ran those offenses.

The point still stands despite the cherry pick.

I'm comparing Jimmy's BEST season as a QB vs Matt Ryan's BEST season as a QB under the same offensive system.

In no way is the cherry picking lol. Take the two best yrs of a each QB with the same system No other QB in this system was top 3 worst in any of the stats I mentioned, which all pertain to actually throwing the ball downfield.

We don't even need stats to see that he's not particularly good at throwing downfield....there's film backing it up. Under throws, over throws, flat out inaccurate throws etc. He's just not great at it....every once in a while you'll get a good pass (like the James one vs Cin I believe) overall teams aren't game planning for Jimmy's arm. Sure as s**t aren't for Nick Mullens. Hence all the stacked boxes.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

LOL. Very disingenuous. You compared one historic year to 2019 when Garoppolo virtually had the fewest passing attempts in the NFL.

He touched on that year as well but looked at total career and across all Shanahan offenses and QB's who ran those offenses.

The point still stands despite the cherry pick.

I'm comparing Jimmy's BEST season as a QB vs Matt Ryan's BEST season as a QB under the same offensive system.

In no way is the cherry picking lol. Take the two best yrs of a each QB with the same system No other QB in this system was top 3 worst in any of the stats I mentioned, which all pertain to actually throwing the ball downfield.

We don't even need stats to see that he's not particularly good at throwing downfield....there's film backing it up. Under throws, over throws, flat out inaccurate throws etc. He's just not great at it....every once in a while you'll get a good pass (like the James one vs Cin I believe) overall teams aren't game planning for Jimmy's arm. Sure as s**t aren't for Nick Mullens. Hence all the stacked boxes.

This wasn't a Jimmy vs. Ryan debate.

It was a deep look at the Shanahan offenses from Mike to Kyle across all QB's.

If you want to use Ryan's historic year as a speaking point to move on from a QB, 31 QB's would need to be replaced next year and none would be "mobile."

Originally posted by NCommand:
I focused on what YOU should be most concerned about.

To avoid admitting how poor this unit pass protection has been (again), you've already pivoted from no off season and COVID excuses to no continuity on the OL to blaming one position group (C) to needing to run more to be better in PP to needing to throw more deep balls to now needing a rookie QB to mask the turd with lipstick on it.

You're now also ignoring Kyle's offensive system and play calling tendencies.

What's next?

All I'm saying is, whatever the scenario (8 men in the box when only Aiyuk or Deebo is the only weapon on the field a DC needs to worry about and knowing Kyle's offensive tendencies so you can sit down as defenders under 15 yards and play downhill), next year, if you want a rookie QB who's going to be learning a brand new foreign language just to be able to call a play in the huddle and who's probably used to rarely being touched in college, unit pass protection HERE should be your #1 priority.

I hate to break it to you but a more mobile QB can only hide so much over time...like Kyle and his scheme.

WRONG AGAIN NC.

if you can't accept that COVID played a part in ALL of this, you're being a fool.

I've already pointed out Kyle being able to push the ball downfield with Matt Ryan and you don't want to accept it either...I don't need to prove s**t to you at this point...you're so deep into your OL hate that it doesn't matter what anyone says. You've stooped to use Grant as some source now.

Go look at Kyle's past personnel at WR. They ALWAYS had a top end burner to open the field whether it was Gabriel, Robinson, Goodwin etc. the threat was there and used when the scenario presented itself. Ryan's IAY of 9 yards is NOT made up no matter how hard you try to say something else.

I hate to break it to you BETTER QB play makes everything better including PP. It's not some made up thing and we see it happening WEEKLY around the league.

I'm done with all these NC, you're spinning off the planet with this nonsense. BOTH things can be true better QB play improves PP and yes better players improve PP. They CAN be addressed...it sounds like it has to be one thing for you. Sounds like you want Jimmy to stay and SF has less money to improve your OL. GOOD LUCK with that!

Originally posted by NCommand:
This wasn't a Jimmy vs. Ryan debate.

It was a deep look at the Shanahan offenses from Mike to Kyle across all QB's.

If you want to use Ryan's historic year as a speaking point to move on from a QB, 31 QB's would need to be replaced next year and none would be "mobile."

It was for me bud...it was showing what a BETTER QB can do under Kyle. No one thinks Ryan is some mega super star JUST BETTER than Jimmy G...if you don't think being somewhat mobile improves PP and QB hits than you're straight up lying. AZ being #1 on your QB stats shows you that!

Yes because more QBs in the league are becoming less mobile lol derp.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I focused on what YOU should be most concerned about.

To avoid admitting how poor this unit pass protection has been (again), you've already pivoted from no off season and COVID excuses to no continuity on the OL to blaming one position group (C) to needing to run more to be better in PP to needing to throw more deep balls to now needing a rookie QB to mask the turd with lipstick on it.

You're now also ignoring Kyle's offensive system and play calling tendencies.

What's next?

All I'm saying is, whatever the scenario (8 men in the box when only Aiyuk or Deebo is the only weapon on the field a DC needs to worry about and knowing Kyle's offensive tendencies so you can sit down as defenders under 15 yards and play downhill), next year, if you want a rookie QB who's going to be learning a brand new foreign language just to be able to call a play in the huddle and who's probably used to rarely being touched in college, unit pass protection HERE should be your #1 priority.

I hate to break it to you but a more mobile QB can only hide so much over time...like Kyle and his scheme.

WRONG AGAIN NC.

if you can't accept that COVID played a part in ALL of this, you're being a fool.

I've already pointed out Kyle being able to push the ball downfield with Matt Ryan and you don't want to accept it either...I don't need to prove s**t to you at this point...you're so deep into your OL hate that it doesn't matter what anyone says. You've stooped to use Grant as some source now.

Go look at Kyle's past personnel at WR. They ALWAYS had a top end burner to open the field whether it was Gabriel, Robinson, Goodwin etc. the threat was there and used when the scenario presented itself. Ryan's IAY of 9 yards is NOT made up no matter how hard you try to say something else.

I hate to break it to you BETTER QB play makes everything better including PP. It's not some made up thing and we see it happening WEEKLY around the league.

I'm done with all these NC, you're spinning off the planet with this nonsense. BOTH things can be true better QB play improves PP and yes better players improve PP. They CAN be addressed...it sounds like it has to be one thing for you. Sounds like you want Jimmy to stay and SF has less money to improve your OL. GOOD LUCK with that!

I'll look forward to your 100th goal post moved next year to avoid reality when we're talking about the unit pass protection issues again behind a more mobile QB.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

...if you don't think being somewhat mobile improves PP and QB hits than you're straight up lying.

More evidence you only read your own posts. I've literally supported your stance on this the entire time. I also recognized that if your unit pass protection isn't fixed you end up with Russell Wilson every year and those hits are at the top right there with us. Why? Because we have THAT kind of unit pass protection. Your mobile QB will help. But you're looking to have it cover up a crappy PP OL far far far too much. And as a rookie, that's just unfair.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'll look forward to your 100th goal post moved next year to avoid reality when we're talking about the unit pass protection issues again behind a more mobile QB.

only goalposts moved are yours constantly...the fact that you have the balls to say that is hilarious

I can't handle your thick headedness on this subject anymore. Just when I feel like we have some sort of common ground, you throw out more dumb s**t to backup your stance... you're too deep to change it at this point.

I'm done with you in here on this subject, it's pointless to have a convo with you about it.

Meh just face it gents. It's apparently obvious this regime doesn't care about two things:

1) drafting and developing o-lineman
2) drafting CB's

Originally posted by NCommand:

More evidence you only read your own posts. I've literally supported your stance on this the entire time. I also recognized that if your unit pass protection isn't fixed you end up with Russell Wilson every year and those hits are at the top right there with us. Why? Because we have THAT kind of unit pass protection. Your mobile QB will help. But you're looking to have it cover up a crappy PP OL far far far too much. And as a rookie, that's just unfair.

WHERE DID I SAY COVER IT UP!? I said it will help improve it, it's a MASSIVE part of PP in general.

Now you're reading your own posts lol....you interpret what people say in here as it being against what you want lol.

goodbye

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
More evidence you only read your own posts. I've literally supported your stance on this the entire time. I also recognized that if your unit pass protection isn't fixed you end up with Russell Wilson every year and those hits are at the top right there with us. Why? Because we have THAT kind of unit pass protection. Your mobile QB will help. But you're looking to have it cover up a crappy PP OL far far far too much. And as a rookie, that's just unfair.

WHERE DID I SAY COVER IT UP!?

Now you're reading your own posts lol....you interpret what people say in here as it being against what you want lol.

goodbye

the question I have between you both is...

Do you blame Ryan and Jimmy for not winning the Super Bowls they both played in ??