49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:
Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.

Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.

A QB with excellent pocket awareness and even better processing can certainly help the OL in pass protection a lot. That said, we're usually one of the highest % teams in play action which means by the time the QB turns around, plants and looks for his first read, 2+ seconds have already gone by which puts additional pressure on the OL and Kyle to scheme that guy open and the QB to process even quicker blind for 2+ seconds.

If he has to get to his second read, he's usually also dodging bodies too with our OL. Tough all around.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.

A QB with excellent pocket awareness and even better processing can certainly help the OL in pass protection a lot. That said, we're usually one of the highest % teams in play action which means by the time the QB turns around, plants and looks for his first read, 2+ seconds have already gone by which puts additional pressure on the OL and Kyle to scheme that guy open and the QB to process even quicker blind for 2+ seconds.

If he has to get to his second read, he's usually also dodging bodies too with our OL. Tough all around.

The basic Kyle QB keeper boot pass is an example of the 2.5 second read. I mean if the defense buys the play fake, it's an almost 90% easy read for the QB to nail the TE or the crossing WR receiver behind him. The more difficult passes are the straight drop back no play fake passes, and again, it's a lot easier for a QB to read the defense when you have three legit WR's/TE/receivers in the pattern. Aiyuk and Deebo along with Kittle are a good foundation for a blitz beating consistent 3rd down converting offense. It's hard to double cover all three receivers defensively the way you can with only two good receivers. Add in Mostert and Wilson as good speed and change of pace backs, and you have the makings of an elite offense. Again, sprinkle in a Bourne or Jordan Reed as additional pass catchers in certain 4 wide or 3 TE formations and I don't see the QB taking sacks and getting hits after throwing. One reason is because he'll have some trusted targets that are open when it comes time to throw. The trick that Kyle has to master is to be able to keep all three receivers healthy for a 19 game season.

"Red light...red light...GREEN LIGHT!"

Get a Center like Alex Mack and watch miracles happen!!!

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.

Was the argument ever that a QB has nothing at all to do with pressure? I'm not sure where these absolute arguments are coming from. It's like saying tires don't impact stopping distance on a car but is anyone arguing fixing/tightening up the brakes isn't an issue or doesn't matter or the brakes are "good enough"? This isn't an either/or argument. Never was. QB play yes needs to improve but there's a mountain of evidence that says the OL isn't good enough EITHER. Fix those damn brakes - and get new tires, but fix the damn brakes.

2019 is evidence of what our current QB can do when the brakes are fixed.

It may not even be the brakes or the tires, but the CPU in the car computer system. Meaning, all these *dang* injuries. Why??? I mean geee-zuz! I've never seen a team as injured as this and still eek out a 6 win season. I mean it should have been a 2-12 season, in my opinion. I think if the team was as healthy as the 2019 campagin, we'd still be talking about the next opponent in the divisional games.

Kyle and John have to figure out how to at lease reduce these injuries big time. Useless to draft a 3rd round talented WR and have him unavailable for two years because of injuries.

Originally posted by NCommand:
"Red light...red light...GREEN LIGHT!"

Trent Williams and Mike McGlinchey finished 1-2 among all NFL tackles in PFF's run-blocking grading (both over 90, the bar for elite), but the 49ers allowed too much pressure in pass protection. Red means below-median performance.

Full OL breakdown: https://t.co/pifdckg76C pic.twitter.com/RrSitPwtmE

— David Lombardi (@LombardiHimself) January 14, 2021

Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.

Yeah, that's part of the problem too. They couldn't run block consistently either nor protect the ball. That still shouldn't minimize how poor they pass protect either but we already knew that coming into the season that they are a strong run blocking unit but a poor pass protection unit.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.

Yeah, that's part of the problem too. They couldn't run block consistently either nor protect the ball. That still shouldn't minimize how poor they pass protect either but we already knew that coming into the season that they are a strong run blocking unit but a poor pass protection unit.

If there is one guy skewing the injury stats, its Richburg. Meaning if he was healthy, that OLine would have better health stats. I think the misfire on Richburg affects pass protection in a couple of ways.
1. Lack of experienced pass protection play caller that calls the right protection scheme vs blitzes, slants, dogs, stunts etc... resulting in missed blocks injuring QB and other skilled players.
2. Benton has to juggle the rookies and second year players into unfamiliar roles they've never played much before, because of a missing center.
3.because the linemen are not playing in their accustomed positions or that journeymen OLinemen are plugged in, you have lax, sloppy, and mistake prone pass protection play.
4. Mistake prone play results in a destroyed morale and confidence of the OLinemen that are healthy, injury to QB, and deterioration in offensive efficiency because now Kyle is playing a backup QB.
5. The good OLine players may try to overcompensate for the bad play, and try to stay in, despite fatigue, and because of that get may more injury prone.

I'm hoping they get a young talented and healthy center - that might go a long way to end a bunch of injuries on the team. Or at least I hope so.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Possible Moves:

• John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets

49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

Yeah, he's been a consultant for couple/few years now. Kyle threw him a bone after the coke and hookers incident. I guess he's been sober and worked his way back so this doesn't surprise me.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Possible Moves:

• John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets

49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

I just hope Chris Foerster stays away from the Coke machine.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
When Foerster was here in a previous tenure, again he had some terrible PP numbers for his OL. Just please no. Since coming to the 49ers in 2008 during his first stint, his lines even at other stops have just been meh. Yes, run blocking has been incredible, but I think that's the problem; we have an OL coach who seems to know not much else. Interesting coincidence he officially joined the team this year as a co-OL assistant and McG precipitous decline with pass protection.

I remember 2008 and 2009. Foerster was convinced he could make a players out of Chilo Rachal and Adam Snyder. The Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary regimes. OL was so mediocre, 2010 we take 2 OL picks in the first round.

I know Foerster coached in Washington with the Shannys but even there his units were meh. His name isn't ever connected to great lines or teams, nothing pops out on the page when you look at the resume.

Man, I hope you are wrong, but you may be right. I'm hoping McGlinchy's problems lie more towards having a better offseason regimen than OLine coaching.

I'm hoping Kyle and Benton and the rest can find a decent center that stays healthy throughout a 19 game season this offseason.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Possible Moves:

• John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets

49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

Yeah, he's been a consultant for couple/few years now. Kyle threw him a bone after the coke and hookers incident. I guess he's been sober and worked his way back so this doesn't surprise me.

When Foerster was here in a previous tenure, again he had some terrible PP numbers for his OL. Just please no. Since coming to the 49ers in 2008 during his first stint, his lines even at other stops have just been meh. Yes, run blocking has been incredible, but I think that's the problem; we have an OL coach who seems to know not much else. Interesting coincidence he officially joined the team this year as a co-OL assistant and McG precipitous decline with pass protection.

I remember 2008 and 2009. Foerster was convinced he could make a players out of Chilo Rachal and Adam Snyder. The Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary regimes. OL was so mediocre, 2010 we take 2 OL picks in the first round.

I know Foerster coached in Washington with the Shannys but even there his units were meh. His name isn't ever connected to great lines or teams, nothing pops out on the page when you look at the resume.

I hear this concern big time.

So here's what we knew coming into the season and still know today.

Trent Williams - 90+ Elite run and pass blocker who will command $19.3M or more APY and positioned himself for a bidding war.
Laken Tomlinson - 80+ run blocker but gave up the 2nd most QB pressures again. No challengers. Reduced penalties to only 2 this year. But he is what he is.
Center - Another lost year for the extra expensive Weston Richjured. Garland, Brunskill and Grasu are get-by-players you can use for 2 or 3 games. Nothing more. Brunskill is more ideal as a swing-T.
Colton McKivitz - Another get-by-player and best relegated to developing depth.
Mike McGlinchey - 90+ run blocker but gave up the most QB pressures (50-) again. No challengers. PRP injections in his knee and calculated weight loss down to 295 which wasn't monitored by the staff. Shon Coleman is a ghost only partially existing in the physical world. But MM is what he is...the most bipolar skill set OL in the game.

For those counting at home that's 3 excellent run blockers and 1 excellent pass protector (who's the #1 free agent).

Benton & Foerster
Excellent at run schemes and preparing their young low-end talent OL for run blocking responsibilities and off-the-bench play. Prepared. Top talents like Mike McGlinchey never improved in pass protection and this year, actually declined. Top 5 run blocking production but #2 in QB hits/pressures in 2017, 2018 and 2020. 2019 we went to the Superbowl on the 2nd most rushing attempts but 2nd least passing attempts disguising this obvious trend (#26 pass-block win rate in 2019).

The questions: Will the 49ers pass-blocking be better in 2020? If so, by how much? And what can we expect from Garoppolo?

So what's likely to change? Would giving Benton and Foerster more Kocurek-like talent in the draft be the answer? Neither Tomlinson nor McGlinchey have improved a lick from what they've always been (1st round picks). The most concerning aspect of McGlinchey's game isn't his weight, but poor foot and hand work and that's on the coaching staff.

Bring in a finished product like C Corey Linsley in free agency? Too expensive unless Trent Williams leaves but it's highly unlikely a top OL like this hits free agency (they rarely do) not named Trent Williams.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Possible Moves:

• John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets

49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

Yeah, he's been a consultant for couple/few years now. Kyle threw him a bone after the coke and hookers incident. I guess he's been sober and worked his way back so this doesn't surprise me.

When Foerster was here in a previous tenure, again he had some terrible PP numbers for his OL. Just please no. Since coming to the 49ers in 2008 during his first stint, his lines even at other stops have just been meh. Yes, run blocking has been incredible, but I think that's the problem; we have an OL coach who seems to know not much else. Interesting coincidence he officially joined the team this year as a co-OL assistant and McG precipitous decline with pass protection.

I remember 2008 and 2009. Foerster was convinced he could make a players out of Chilo Rachal and Adam Snyder. The Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary regimes. OL was so mediocre, 2010 we take 2 OL picks in the first round.

I know Foerster coached in Washington with the Shannys but even there his units were meh. His name isn't ever connected to great lines or teams, nothing pops out on the page when you look at the resume.

I hear this concern big time.

So here's what we knew coming into the season and still know today.

Trent Williams - 90+ Elite run and pass blocker who will command $19.3M or more APY and positioned himself for a bidding war.
Laken Tomlinson - 80+ run blocker but gave up the 2nd most QB pressures again. No challengers. Reduced penalties to only 2 this year. But he is what he is.
Center - Another lost year for the extra expensive Weston Richjured. Garland, Brunskill and Grasu are get-by-players you can use for 2 or 3 games. Nothing more. Brunskill is more ideal as a swing-T.
Colton McKivitz - Another get-by-player and best relegated to developing depth.
Mike McGlinchey - 90+ run blocker but gave up the most QB pressures (50-) again. No challengers. PRP injections in his knee and calculated weight loss down to 295 which wasn't monitored by the staff. Shon Coleman is a ghost only partially existing in the physical world. But MM is what he is...the most bipolar skill set OL in the game.

Benton & Foerster
Excellent at run schemes and preparing their young low-end talent OL for run blocking responsibilities and off-the-bench play. Prepared. Top talents like Mike McGlinchey never improved in pass protection and this year, actually declined. Top 5 run blocking production but #2 in QB hits/pressures in 2017, 2018 and 2020. 2019 we went to the Superbowl on the 2nd most rushing attempts but 2nd least passing attempts disguising this obvious trend.

So what's likely to change? Would giving Benton and Foerster more Kocurek-like talent in the draft be the answer? Neither Tomlinson nor McGlinchey have improved a lick from what they've always been (1st round picks). The most concerning aspect of McGlinchey's game isn't his weight, but poor foot and hand work and that's on the coaching staff.

Bring in a finished product like C Corey Linsley in free agency? Too expensive unless Trent Williams leaves but it's highly unlikely a top OL like this hits free agency (they rarely do) not named Trent Williams.

Dude, nail on the head here. Even with talent in Washington, that line wasn't ever really good at PP. Foerster has been coaching in the NFL for like 28 years and the lines he's been associated with, weather talented or not just have only been meh in PP. He's developed some gems in the running game at Washington and in SF, both tenures

This is why I'm done building OL talent into my off season plans. I've seen enough to know where they prioritize their talent capital. I'm not even confident Trent Williams will be back, honestly and I've been saying that since he was granted by this FO to become a free agent after this season.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I hear this concern big time.

So here's what we knew coming into the season and still know today.

Trent Williams - 90+ Elite run and pass blocker who will command $19.3M or more APY and positioned himself for a bidding war.
Laken Tomlinson - 80+ run blocker but gave up the 2nd most QB pressures again. No challengers. Reduced penalties to only 2 this year. But he is what he is.
Center - Another lost year for the extra expensive Weston Richjured. Garland, Brunskill and Grasu are get-by-players you can use for 2 or 3 games. Nothing more. Brunskill is more ideal as a swing-T.
Colton McKivitz - Another get-by-player and best relegated to developing depth.
Mike McGlinchey - 90+ run blocker but gave up the most QB pressures (50-) again. No challengers. PRP injections in his knee and calculated weight loss down to 295 which wasn't monitored by the staff. Shon Coleman is a ghost only partially existing in the physical world. But MM is what he is...the most bipolar skill set OL in the game.

For those counting at home that's 3 excellent run blockers and 1 excellent pass protector (who's the #1 free agent).

Benton & Foerster
Excellent at run schemes and preparing their young low-end talent OL for run blocking responsibilities and off-the-bench play. Prepared. Top talents like Mike McGlinchey never improved in pass protection and this year, actually declined. Top 5 run blocking production but #2 in QB hits/pressures in 2017, 2018 and 2020. 2019 we went to the Superbowl on the 2nd most rushing attempts but 2nd least passing attempts disguising this obvious trend (#26 pass-block win rate in 2019).

The questions: Will the 49ers pass-blocking be better in 2020? If so, by how much? And what can we expect from Garoppolo?

So what's likely to change? Would giving Benton and Foerster more Kocurek-like talent in the draft be the answer? Neither Tomlinson nor McGlinchey have improved a lick from what they've always been (1st round picks). The most concerning aspect of McGlinchey's game isn't his weight, but poor foot and hand work and that's on the coaching staff.

Bring in a finished product like C Corey Linsley in free agency? Too expensive unless Trent Williams leaves but it's highly unlikely a top OL like this hits free agency (they rarely do) not named Trent Williams.

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is why I'm done building OL talent into my off season plans. I've seen enough to know where they prioritize their talent capital. I'm not even confident Trent Williams will be back, honestly and I've been saying that since he was granted by this FO to become a free agent after this season.

That's a pretty good summation of my own feelings. I'm a bit disappointed in McGlinchy myself in the pass protection department. Some of those Whiffs were I think you need to keep making plans on the OLine, I think you have a nice read on what ShanaLynch likes to do - in general - even if they don't quite go in the direction you'd want them to go. I think they genuinely do want to get there regarding the OLine, but get distracted by the squirrel that comes out of every draft.

I had high hopes for Weston to regain form, but he was in and out so quick, I couldn't even get my head around it. I think the 49ers (as you said) have good depth right now (Garland, Brunskill, McKivits etc...) but the OLine coaches have to get these guys developed and up to speed, or this next year is going to be a dangerous one for the QB's. I think they need to get a quality center in the first four rounds of this draft. I think getting a good reliable healthy center will make 2021 a better year than 2020 - OLine-speaking.

RE:Coaching, they have three OLine coaches on the team right now. That's weird. I'm wondering if Kyle's getting ready to make some coaching changes on the offensive line (this year or next?). Anybody know anything about Zack Yenser? I still think Benson has the chops to get that line better, and I'm hoping Foerster's ascent to assistant OLine coach hasn't created resentment there between Benson, Foerster and Kyle.