49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
You are correct. But a sack isn't always the O line's fault either.

Absolutely. Neither are pressures though.

No but I can certainly use pff to find out which ones were attributed to the O line.

Also, the discussion is on o line performance and not whether the QB ended up making the play better or worse because of said pressure.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Big time. I wonder if Kyle/Foerster/Lynn will pull him a lot because of his bigger frame and movement abilities.

I do have confidence in Brendel in PP. His tests will be on the mental side pre snap and over 17 games. Is he another late round-UDFA/XFL player who starts out solid but gets progressively worse over time? Yeah, Mack definitely struggled at the POA esp. in short yardage and goal line. They're built for an OZ skill set. DL welcome the strait up blocking, I'm sure.

Yup, let's see what cream rises to the top.

MM had some good momentum before his injury. I'd love if he could regain full health and ability there. He's kind of known for folding in PP when you need him most so it stands out most in fans memories. He's a solid RT though.

I'll also be watching closely that 6-8th man gearing up for the inevitable key injury heading into the playoffs. LOL

That actually doesn't surprise me. I didn't watch every Bucs playoff game but it seemed like he was under duress and then when Wirfs got injured and tried to pay through it, that was the end of Brady...literally.

I loved that you looked at season ending info and playoffs. Like anything in football, momentum is a key factor but often times it can be two different tales.

I did a bit more research for 9ers4eva and found that KC had ended top 8 heading into the playoffs (5th in RB and 4th in PP). I'm sure facing our DL hurt their playoff rank but thats more enforce evidence of the formula holding true.

You need both. I do think a more mobile QB can help rise the OL rankings a tad more (e.g. a few spots up) compared to old veteran classic pocket QB's who need an elite OL to begin with, where they will maintain it.

PS: As to the 5 OL %, I agree. I don't even know what that stat is called or where to access it but that is a really important piece of OL play (and should be for grading/weighting IMHO...along with volume and offensive style).

Yet if Jimmy hits Sanders on that pass and the defenses holds at the end of the game the formula doesn't hold true. OL could've had the exact same game and they would've won the SB. Bengals were literally a play or two from the SB with the weakest OL in the playoffs.

KC ended top 8 based on what?

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

As PFF found in their analysis you get solid play from the OL and you win. Elite play doesn't increase the chances of winning. Even if you get questionable play from your OL you still have a chance to win sometimes like the 9ers and Bengals. What you can't have and win is questionable QB play.

What would be real interesting to see is an analysis of Jimmy from PFF when he wasn't pressured. If you don't make the plays when you aren't pressured there is no reason to believe you will suddenly start making them with more opportunities. IT's why PFF probably weighs run blocking more. If you succeed at your run block a positive play is likely to happen. If you succeed in pass blocking it might mean a whole lotta nothing.

Football Outsiders. Both the site and Cale Clinton who now works for them (OL guru like Brandon Thorn).

In my experiences, they do a much more comprehensive breakdown and analysis before rankings and more goes into those ranking hence their #8 overall ranking despite a unit RB (5) and PP (4) rank. You saw my Tom Compton example with PFF and why you need to proceed with caution; on their ranks, not necessarily there advanced stats. But that's fine.

I'd recommend signing up. Their OL analysis is fun. They also typically have us rated higher too. It's still not perfect but it is a nice tool. If you put them all together you get a bit closer to reality.

All PFF is showing is playoff validation. We all know an average OL + average QB can get you into the playoffs (14 teams). Winning it, that seems to be a totally different formula. And yes, it's not a guarantee either...a play here, a play there by your QB-centric viewpoint, could have been the difference. But it isn't matching up with reality.

That last paragraph is awesome. I'd love to see that. Of course we'd still have to pivot to a lot of assumptions even within that as we don't know the exact play calls or how the QB is coached up within that set. That's esp. hard in Kyle's system where everything looks the same but with Kyle, a QB might be taught one key vs. another based on where a LB is located and that could flip the primary and even the side of the field he starts his progressions on.

There are some great stats that have recently come out that I think, more objective than some of the PFF stuff (which I think) are more subjective than objective, in my opinion. Those QB heat maps, and QB pass distributions are pretty neat - for example. Also those stats as to where the team runs - and breaks it down to just the three basic directions, left, center, and right. I'm not a stat guy per se, I like looking at the film first and then looking at the stats 2nd.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
TW will be TW. I don't see his play falling off any.

Aaron Banks will be just as good as Laken Tomlinson in the run game, if not better. Its a question mark for me when it comes to his PP but 2 of LT's last 3 games were staight up abysmal in pass blocking.

Brendel will be an upgrade in the run blocking department at the center position. Again his pass protection is a question mark for me at this point. But I don't think he'll be as good as Mac was last season. Maybe they go with someone else but it seems as though they have been grooming him to take the starting spot.

Brunskill was very mediocre at both run blocking and pass blocking last season. I can see someone like Jaylon Moore taking that RG spot.

Mike McGlinchey was a damn good run blocker in 2020 and was trending that way in pass blocking in 2021 before his season was over after week 9 due to injury. If he is healthy and ready to go, he will be the starter.

I feel very comfortable having Trent and Mike on the outside. So no worries for me there. The best thing is to get the IOL doing what they individual do best and that is run block. Let them build some confidence and to help themselves stay out of unfavorable passing situations. Interior PP will take some time to develop and for those guys to gel. So I don't expect them to come out of the gate looking great but if they can be at least average or better we will be just fine. If not, we better keep a back in to help proctect on passing downs.

Thanks for the perspective.

I might need to retract on my Laken Tomlinson support. LOL. He finally got out of the red in pass protection for the season and then dove right back in for the playoffs. . Aaron Banks, come on down!!!!

I think I'm leaning the opposite on Brendel. Strength is his weakness and IF we do run more inside like we're projecting, that could become an issue esp. as the season progresses. His athleticism and awareness has me excited about his PP. OZ and 2nd level reach blocks he should be fine; just needs to work on finishing those (strength)

Moore or another absolutely need to win over Brunskill. That just has to happen.

Mike scares the hell out of me. I'm already having Richburg-like PTSD. Haha. So I'm super cautious on this one. That said, the dude has been playing injured since he arrived here so there is the real chance he can not only regain health but become a better, stronger player. And you know he's going to give it his all in a contract year.

What was our unit run blocking last year through the season? Upper tier? Top 10? And 10 PBE (which is great).

So I guess I'd be pretty excited about a unit top 16 in both. Anything above that is gravy!

One thing to watch is the number of times our 5 OL hold their own. I remember from a podcast a while ago, it wasn't just that the Rams had 600+ passing attempts or that they did it for a 2.76 TTT QB, but they also had the highest rate of 5 OL in PP. That means they not only held their own but it allowed McVay to get all his backfield + TE's out in the routes at the highest rate. We know what the opposite of that looks like.

For me, this training camp, I'm looking for signs of durability or lack thereof. Specially the guys that have been brought on board since the 2020 season. If they have at least minimum - round 4 talent and that elusive *durability* - they should improve greatly and become a top level player if they just get reps and get stronger as they progress in their careers like Laken Tomlinson. The guys like the UDFA's (Poe being one of my underdog favorites) if they have durability, I think at least they can become good depth players that can be traded later on, or help us with getting draft compensation picks. Maybe one or more of the UDFA's can move up to starter level also, that's my optimistic hope.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

You only skip the primary read if covered or pressured

foolish to skip open targets for s**ts and giggiles

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

You only skip the primary read if covered or pressured

foolish to skip open targets for s**ts and giggiles

Exactly!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

You only skip the primary read if covered or pressured

foolish to skip open targets for s**ts and giggiles

Exactly!

yet you want to exhaust plays

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

You only skip the primary read if covered or pressured

foolish to skip open targets for s**ts and giggiles

Exactly!

yet you want to exhaust plays

Progressions within the plays.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by D0PEMAN:
the o-line just needs to be great at run blocking, Lance's mobility can make up for the pass pro

There's a ton of truth in this. It's unlikely his mobility moves the needle too much in PP but it will certainly help.

I remember I had reached out to Jeff Deeney (PFF) prior to drafting Lance and asked him what the counts were on off schedule plays in college and pros. I was shocked how few there were per game esp. in the pros. There were a few outlier players way out there who pushed the whole average up (e.g. Russell Wilson) but that told me how hard HC's push for on schedule plays despite more and more athletic QB's coming into the NFL. I have a feeling we might see that with Kyle too esp. at first. And then later maybe loosen up a bit???

you design a play, call the play, you run the play

Damn straight. Trust the play call. Trust the 10 in front of you will do their job. Do your job. LOL

so why the concern.. you want QBs not to run the play ?

I'm good. Want him to try to exhaust that play as much as possible.

You only skip the primary read if covered or pressured

foolish to skip open targets for s**ts and giggiles

Exactly!

yet you want to exhaust plays

Progressions within the plays.

i must be misinterpreting the term of off scheduled plays.. does OSP mean go through progressions ?

had to listen to how s**tty he's been from a couple folks in here

Originally posted by NYniner85:

pic.twitter.com/eTmSM6MVrt

— Brandon Thorn (@BrandonThornNFL) July 27, 2022

had to listen to how s**tty he's been from a couple folks in here

failure

Originally posted by NYniner85:

pic.twitter.com/eTmSM6MVrt

— Brandon Thorn (@BrandonThornNFL) July 27, 2022

had to listen to how s**tty he's been from a couple folks in here

So s**tty we wanted to keep him. LOL

That said, last regular season was a career (contract) year. Finally out of the red in PP for the first time in his career.

...and then the playoffs happened.

So were they good enough, NY85? Still waiting for your response. LOL

PS: At least he moved up from tier 4 to tier 3.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

pic.twitter.com/eTmSM6MVrt

— Brandon Thorn (@BrandonThornNFL) July 27, 2022

had to listen to how s**tty he's been from a couple folks in here

So s**tty we wanted to keep him. LOL

That said, last regular season was a career (contract) year. Finally out of the red in PP for the first time in his career.

...and then the playoffs happened.

So were they good enough, NY85? Still waiting for your response. LOL

PS: At least he moved up from tier 4 to tier 3.

of course they were good enough.. you can't get to where we were if they were terrible

and now NC saying not keeping a player because of cost is now a s**tty player

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
of course they were good enough.. you can't get to where we were if they were terrible

and now NC saying not keeping a player because of cost is now a s**tty player

Are you NY?

Who said they were terrible? You guys sure like to deflect to extremes.

Tier 3. Perfectly graded. Took him 7 years to get out from Tier 4/5. I still would have liked to keep him. But hopefully Banks can become an upgrade to Tier 2!