49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:
Wow, that's really going out on a limb. Respect for that.

If that comes to fruition, 9ers4eva better be ready to reference this claim with a whole lot of pats on his own back.

ON PAPER.

I stand by it. Go depth chart by depth chart. Lot of guys who aren't super talented that get by.

Whether Banks or Moore played up to it is a whole different discussion.

Something that I didn't bring up because this is the O line thread. The difference in that game between McVay/Stafford and Shanahan/Garoppolo was play calling and execution. I saw a lot of pressure beaters by LAR with screens and quick passes. Shanahan called some of that also but probably not nearly enough. Plus Jimmy did not execute those plays very well. He threw a screen pass in the dirt and completely missed Kittle faking a pass block and sneaking out into the flat. Jimmy also seemed very reluctant to dump it off to the RB until it was too late and the pressure got there. That is not to take any of the poor play by the O line away from them but just wanted to add some context.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I know I am probably annoying some people on here with the analytics but I have a month subscription to pff. So I am going to use it damn it. I don't think you'll find any of this surprising NC.

Pff weighs their pass blocking efficiency toward sacks allowed. They had us ranked 10th in the league and 13th in the post season. That is 13 out of 14 teams for the post season for pass blocking efficiency.

Percentage wise, we gave up a pressure on 22.7% of our pass snaps in the regular season. LAR gave up a pressure on 22.3% of their pass snaps. Pretty much neck and neck when it comes to the regular season.

However, when it came to the post season, things were very different. Pff had LAR ranked 4th, giving up a pressure on 18.8% of their pass snaps. SF on the otherhand were ranked 13th, giving up a pressure on 41.8% of their pass snaps. If we aren't weighing the efficiency toward sacks but by pressure rate, that makes them dead last in the post season.

TW allowed 0.8 pressures per game in the 2021 regular season. He allowed 1 pressure in each of the DAL game and GB game. So lets just say TW went into LA healthy and he only gave up 1 pressure in that game. We would have still ranked 12th in the post season and gave up a pressure on 36.7% of our pass snaps.

We had 79 pass snaps in total in the post season. 33 total pressures. Laken Tomlinson gave up 9 pressures, Tom Compton gave up 9 pressures and Trent Williams gave up 7 pressures. I give Trent a pass because of the injury but LT and TC gave up more than half of the pressures in the post season. That's probably why they let Tomlinson and Compton go in FA.

Bump for the those in the back who are talking to themselves and not listening in class. LOL

Bumping again because I still think folks are missing what YAC is saying....

There's only 2-3 who are ignoring it. The QB-centric crowd. I think everyone else gets the point and probably didn't need this added data after watching it happen a second time cost us. (and yes, there were a lot of other things too).

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
ON PAPER.

I stand by it. Go depth chart by depth chart. Lot of guys who aren't super talented that get by.

Whether Banks or Moore played up to it is a whole different discussion.

What is it 'on paper' that you are using to compare the position across all 32 teams? Is it draft position? Because they have what, 3 starts between them... I don't see what there is 'on paper' to support your claim. Support it.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Something that I didn't bring up because this is the O line thread. The difference in that game between McVay/Stafford and Shanahan/Garoppolo was play calling and execution. I saw a lot of pressure beaters by LAR with screens and short passes. Shanahan called some of that also but probably not nearly enough. Plus Jimmy did not execute those plays very well. He threw a screen pass in the dirt and completely missed Kittle faking a pass block and sneaking out into the flat. Jimmy also seemed very reluctant to dump it off to the RB until it was too late and the pressure got there. That is not to take any of the poor play by the O line away from them but just wanted to add some context.

Absolutely great point about the pressure beaters. There's a balance in keeping guys in to help PP and leaking them out (and executing).

I've felt we continue to miss that element in our passing game; that RB that is and can be utilized in the passing game to burn the rush. You need to hit them too though.

I feel that's been a big weapon against our D too and we struggle with it.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Something that I didn't bring up because this is the O line thread. The difference in that game between McVay/Stafford and Shanahan/Garoppolo was play calling and execution. I saw a lot of pressure beaters by LAR with screens and short passes. Shanahan called some of that also but probably not nearly enough. Plus Jimmy did not execute those plays very well. He threw a screen pass in the dirt and completely missed Kittle faking a pass block and sneaking out into the flat. Jimmy also seemed very reluctant to dump it off to the RB until it was too late and the pressure got there. That is not to take any of the poor play by the O line away from them but just wanted to add some context.

Absolutely great point about the pressure beaters. There's a balance in keeping guys in to help PP and leaking them out (and executing).

I've felt we continue to miss that element in our passing game; that RB that is and can be utilized in the passing game to burn the rush. You need to hit them too though.

I feel that's been a big weapon against our D too and we struggle with it.

Agreed on all points.

The RB option is there in the play calls. It is up to the QB to utilize it.

Originally posted by NCommand:
There's only 2-3 who are ignoring it. The QB-centric crowd. I think everyone else gets the point and probably didn't need this added data after watching it happen a second time cost us. (and yes, there were a lot of other things too).

Theres nothing to ignore. The problem with how you frame it is your suggestion that if say they only gave up 15 pressures that would've been a difference maker. I disagree. Hell YAC just talked a couple posts ago about how JImmy couldn't complete pressure beaters.

Again this is the disconnect. You seem to be of the belief that Jimmy doesn't play well BECAUSE of the O line play. I don't think the O line has much to do with it because I saw the guy miss plenty of open chances. Why should I believe he will suddenly be more effective all the sudden? I also saw Stafford make plays DESPITE the pressure he faced.

To put it another way JImmys poor play had much less to do with the O lines poor play then the reverse. I would agree that neither were good enough. Will you admit that it cant possibly be that both were equally problematic?

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
What is it 'on paper' that you are using to compare the position across all 32 teams? Is it draft position? Because they have what, 3 starts between them... I don't see what there is 'on paper' to support your claim. Support it.

Talent level and draft position yes. If you are trying to argue that doesn't matter I wouldn't disagree. Why I said on paper. Thats not where the league is played. But there's post after post on how we should've used higher picks on OL littering this thread.

Hell NC railed for months on how we should've drafted Cesar Ruiz and he's been a colossal disappointment in New Orleans. But on paper the Saints look great with 2 first round guards.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Talent level and draft position yes. If you are trying to argue that doesn't matter I wouldn't disagree. Why I said on paper. Thats not where the league is played. But there's post after post on how we should've used higher picks on OL littering this thread.

Hell NC railed for months on how we should've drafted Cesar Ruiz and he's been a colossal disappointment in New Orleans. But on paper the Saints look great with 2 first round guards.

Talent level is completely subjective. Definitely not 'on paper'.

Draft position is 'on paper'. And that's only one item that would be 'on paper', and about the only think that's actually 'on paper' in regards to Moore and Banks given they have only 3 starts between them (starts, snaps played would also be 'on paper').

Let's be real here, you haven't compared the draft position of these two players against the starting guards of all 32 teams, and even if you had it would be ridiculous to ignore all the other 'on paper' items you could bring to the table in the comparison. You weren't even definitive in whether the tandem was better 'on paper' than half or 2/3 of the rest of the teams in the league. Let me help you out.... it's not.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I know I am probably annoying some people on here with the analytics but I have a month subscription to pff. So I am going to use it damn it. I don't think you'll find any of this surprising NC.

Pff weighs their pass blocking efficiency toward sacks allowed. They had us ranked 10th in the league and 13th in the post season. That is 13 out of 14 teams for the post season for pass blocking efficiency.

Percentage wise, we gave up a pressure on 22.7% of our pass snaps in the regular season. LAR gave up a pressure on 22.3% of their pass snaps. Pretty much neck and neck when it comes to the regular season.

However, when it came to the post season, things were very different. Pff had LAR ranked 4th, giving up a pressure on 18.8% of their pass snaps. SF on the otherhand were ranked 13th, giving up a pressure on 41.8% of their pass snaps. If we aren't weighing the efficiency toward sacks but by pressure rate, that makes them dead last in the post season.

TW allowed 0.8 pressures per game in the 2021 regular season. He allowed 1 pressure in each of the DAL game and GB game. So lets just say TW went into LA healthy and he only gave up 1 pressure in that game. We would have still ranked 12th in the post season and gave up a pressure on 36.7% of our pass snaps.

We had 79 pass snaps in total in the post season. 33 total pressures. Laken Tomlinson gave up 9 pressures, Tom Compton gave up 9 pressures and Trent Williams gave up 7 pressures. I give Trent a pass because of the injury but LT and TC gave up more than half of the pressures in the post season. That's probably why they let Tomlinson and Compton go in FA.

Bump for the those in the back who are talking to themselves and not listening in class. LOL

Bumping again because I still think folks are missing what YAC is saying....

There's only 2-3 who are ignoring it. The QB-centric crowd. I think everyone else gets the point and probably didn't need this added data after watching it happen a second time cost us. (and yes, there were a lot of other things too).

didn't you say you go by your eyes.. so why now you need stats ?

also, if the QB doesn't throw/or hold the ball longer than the QB should, a pressure is recorded. jimmy also likes to wait a lot of times for that middle route to open up.. he also doesn't have many anticipation throws so he holds the ball a little longer

one example is the INT on the final play of the NFCCG, jimmy chose not to throw and created the pressure.. no OL is going to able to shut down Donald/miller.

Hopefully we have upgraded from Brunskill at RG.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
I don't disagree with the take look what people do not what the say. Somehow NC won't do that with the Chiefs and still wants to spin that they were a top line even though they changed the whole thing the next year.

The problem with all of this is the lack of acknowledgement that the biggest issue was the QB. NO one would disagree that the OL wasn't good enough. But NC wants to muddy the waters by saying everything failed equally. It's just not true.

If we have Matthew Stafford with the same exact team last year I 100% think the 9ers win the SB. Doesn't mean we wouldn't have flaws too. Hell the Rams probably have the worst safety group in the NFL. Their O line also struggled bigtime in the NFC title game. Yet they were able to overcome it BECAUSE their QB made the plays when it counted EVEN WHEN PRESSURED. No different than Mahomes.

I wish they would've cut Jimmy and added to the whole roster with the money. Tyrann Mathieu would've made this defense elite IMO. I didn't love the FA OL out there but yes they could've used another guy. But to pretend Jimmys money wasnt a factor because John wants to BS to the media just isn't true. They are married to the calculation they can get something for him. We will see if they are right. If they are wrong they will look pretty dumb.

Soooooo many odd perceptions in here. I really don't know where you guys pull this stuff out of your ass.

The end-season 8 and 9 ranking by two different sources for the Chiefs in their Superbowl year was to provide context they improved and were a higher end unit by the time they hit the playoffs. I also said if you want to stick with PFF's 16 rating, that's fine.

They bought a new OL after they lost in 2020...because of the OL. You see how your stance is contradictory? When he had a better line, he won. When he didn't, like most elite QB's, he lost. Soooooo?

I have never said all failed components of a loss are/were equal. No matter how YOU weigh them, it took all of those elements in whole to lead to the L despite those same components in helping to get up two scores in the 4Q too.

Then you go full NY85 Madden style and shift to the winning QB for a hypothetical for us AFTER YAC already showed you the differentials in the playoffs (GM...you called it; they didn't read it). So you think had Stafford been pressured 42% of the time, had 15 pressures and less than 3 yards a rush (50 total), he would have won? Tell me you are a QB-can-transcend-everthing guy without telling me that. That's totally fine but a little silly. We weren't building a team around Stafford. That wasn't our reality.

So Jimmy's contract is prohibiting the FO from signing FA OL? How about the previous 4 years? Not really the FO's M.O.

I'm with NC on this one. It was much bigger than jimmy against the Rams.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Something that I didn't bring up because this is the O line thread. The difference in that game between McVay/Stafford and Shanahan/Garoppolo was play calling and execution. I saw a lot of pressure beaters by LAR with screens and short passes. Shanahan called some of that also but probably not nearly enough. Plus Jimmy did not execute those plays very well. He threw a screen pass in the dirt and completely missed Kittle faking a pass block and sneaking out into the flat. Jimmy also seemed very reluctant to dump it off to the RB until it was too late and the pressure got there. That is not to take any of the poor play by the O line away from them but just wanted to add some context.

Absolutely great point about the pressure beaters. There's a balance in keeping guys in to help PP and leaking them out (and executing).

I've felt we continue to miss that element in our passing game; that RB that is and can be utilized in the passing game to burn the rush. You need to hit them too though.

I feel that's been a big weapon against our D too and we struggle with it.

Agreed on all points.

The RB option is there in the play calls. It is up to the QB to utilize it.

Yeah, I'd like to see it even more though. I know Kyle was hoping Hasty was that 3rd down back but it just never worked out. Mitchell started to show some there. Wilson as a primary a bit but only on Texas routes. But I'd like to see a RB that can be a primary too in cases like this. Or be part of real routes too. Line up outside. More wheel routes. Burning them backs them off like a QB who can run off tackle.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Theres nothing to ignore. The problem with how you frame it is your suggestion that if say they only gave up 15 pressures that would've been a difference maker. I disagree. Hell YAC just talked a couple posts ago about how JImmy couldn't complete pressure beaters.

Again this is the disconnect. You seem to be of the belief that Jimmy doesn't play well BECAUSE of the O line play. I don't think the O line has much to do with it because I saw the guy miss plenty of open chances. Why should I believe he will suddenly be more effective all the sudden? I also saw Stafford make plays DESPITE the pressure he faced.

To put it another way JImmys poor play had much less to do with the O lines poor play then the reverse. I would agree that neither were good enough. Will you admit that it cant possibly be that both were equally problematic?

The disconnect is QB-centric fans can't see anything past that. There's rarely been an OL discussion where you and NY don't pivot to QB. The struggle is real.

That tells me, 1. You can't separate it and look at it independently and objectively and 2. You expect a QB to transcend it no MATTER how poor they play.

And yes, both were not good enough. Simple as that. And we knew that back in the off season. But they took measures to correct QB. Did they for OL? Let's see. That's the question now.