49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by YACBros85:
If you have a better way of objectively grading the O line, I would love to see the data. I am in no way biased toward pff or any other premium stats sites. No one else was really giving any real info in this thread and the conversation was heavily opinion based. I don't care about being right. I just wanted to see some evidence to what NC was saying and by my surprise, I was completely turned around by what I have found so far.

There is no real great way to grade anything in football as none of us really know what the plays really entailed or who was ever truly at fault for something. It's why sabremetrics are so easy in baseball yet so hard in football.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So do the eyes. What you see isn't always what everyone else sees. Its okay to have an opinion. Having some objectivity is also a good thing. Hell, I am still under the impression that if Jimmy capitalized on the plays that were there to be made, we would have won easily, inspite of the poor O line play.

Yup. The plays were there.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
If you have a better way of objectively grading the O line, I would love to see the data. I am in no way biased toward pff or any other premium stats sites. No one else was really giving any real info in this thread and the conversation was heavily opinion based. I don't care about being right. I just wanted to see some evidence to what NC was saying and by my surprise, I was completely turned around by what I have found so far.

There is no real great way to grade anything in football as none of us really know what the plays really entailed or who was ever truly at fault for something. It's why sabremetrics are so easy in baseball yet so hard in football.

But for the sake of debate on a football forum you need more than just "take my word for it" opinions to have any worthwhile discussion.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

You know, if you just want to take over this whole thread from here on out, I'll happily oblige.

Those are eye opening statistics.

There are a few things that really stood out to me. Joe Burrow was good enough under pressure to make the SB. We all pretty much knew that. Mac Jones was actually pretty solid under pressure. Big Ben and Tom Brady aren't what they used to be.

The 41.3% pressure rating on Jimmy is disappointing. I don't remember if Trent was hurt in the Dallas game or not, but I think he played more than one post season game hurt? Anyway, that 41.3% can't happen in the playoffs - if the 49ers want to have a shot at the 🏆'th Lombardi.

Trent played well in both the DAL and GB game. He was credited with 1 pressure in each game which was slightly above his regular season average. Tom Compton and Laken Tomlinson both gave up 9 pressures each. Daniel Brunskill gave up 5 and Alex Mack gave up 3.

I think in this particular game, Trey's mobility would have been a factor in helping that pressure rate. The rams had Von coming in from the edge and Donald coming in from the interior. That's going to give any OLine problems. When the 49ers played NY Giants and Lawrence Taylor in the NFCCG - Joe's mobility really did help a lot to neutralized Lawrence Taylor's pass rush.

Not on the pressure rate % stats. Only on what he does after he's pressured.

Trey...Jimmy...Montana...Young...you don't want ANY 49ers QB pressured that much.

Until I see how they grade the stats, I'm skeptical. A lot of these advanced stats are too subjective in my view. Point is, the 41% pressure rate, how is that actually graded and differentiated from a (for example) blitz vs a missed handoff on a tackle/end twist? Jimmy was pretty high up there when blitzed QB ratings-wise, but then he's pressured and his numbers drop drastically? I do know that Trent was injured, and so the OLine is limited in sliding the protections one way or the other with a one legged Trent. Add in the fact that the Ram's DLine was a one time bought and paid for mercenary DLine unlike the 49er DLine, and I have a lot of salt I'm depositing for these so called stats.

Pressure rate isn't super hard to determine. There is going to be a tad subjectivity in it though.

Start with only passing downs. Then, is he moved off his spot? And when? Under 3s or over 3s? Does it force him to speed up his delivery, throw early, scramble, rush up through a hole, side step, shuffle, etc.?

Pretty much any duress under some operational definition on time. Then after that point, it's on the QB...not on the OL.

Moved off his spot - does the mobility of the QB matter? I would think a defensive coordinator will blitz a mobile QB less than an pocket QB due to the escapability dimension. Also line stunts and dogs are not a rush containment strategy and a mobile QB can escape through the cracks in a rush containment strategy.

Under 3 or Over 3 - Pass blocking sets, I think, differ between under 3 yards to pass vs longer passes that have to go over 3. I.e. 3 step slants vs 5 step drops, vs 7 step drops and play actions. Those are all different kinds of pass blocking sets. If your Left Tackle is injured, I'm assuming that skews the pressure rates a bit from a normal pressure rate.

QB Ratings - are affected by the defensive backs and defensive coverage. Guys like Deion limited QB ratings to his side sub 70%, and guys like Donte Johnson - actually elevate a QB's ratings + 100%

So again, a lot of these statistics are interesting, but I take them with a heavy truckload of salt.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So do the eyes. What you see isn't always what everyone else sees. Its okay to have an opinion. Having some objectivity is also a good thing. Hell, I am still under the impression that if Jimmy capitalized on the plays that were there to be made, we would have won easily, inspite of the poor O line play.

Yup. The plays were there.

when a QB decides to hold the ball longer than he should and gets pressured due to it, thats the OLs fault ?

I gave a hypothetical on what the numbers would have looked like had TW entered the game healthy and played to form. We still would have been at almost 38% pressure rate. It wasn't like LT and TC played any better when Trent was healthy. Well LT did play well in PP in the GB game but he was straight up horrible in the DAL game as well as the LAR game. There is no definitive way to know that LT would have played better in the LAR game had TW been healthy.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So do the eyes. What you see isn't always what everyone else sees. Its okay to have an opinion. Having some objectivity is also a good thing. Hell, I am still under the impression that if Jimmy capitalized on the plays that were there to be made, we would have won easily, inspite of the poor O line play.

Yup. The plays were there.

when a QB decides to hold the ball longer than he should and gets pressured due to it, thats the OLs fault ?

Of course not. I noticed on the pff site that the O line is graded differently than the QB when it came to pressure rate.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So do the eyes. What you see isn't always what everyone else sees. Its okay to have an opinion. Having some objectivity is also a good thing. Hell, I am still under the impression that if Jimmy capitalized on the plays that were there to be made, we would have won easily, inspite of the poor O line play.

Yup. The plays were there.

when a QB decides to hold the ball longer than he should and gets pressured due to it, thats the OLs fault ?

Of course not. I noticed on the pff site that the O line is graded differently than the QB when it came to pressure rate.

thats the part where i said the paper lies and doesn't tell the whole story.

it's no miracle we gave up 2 total sacks the entire playoffs.. with the "high pressure rate", jimmy should be in a wheel chair

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
thats the part where i said the paper lies and doesn't tell the whole story.

it's no miracle we gave up 2 total sacks the entire playoffs.. with the "high pressure rate", jimmy should be in a wheel chair

Thought it was 4 but even so Cincy gave up 19. Hard to reconcile all pressures being equal when some turn into sacks while some are just an incompletion and even some get turned into positive plays.

My Inferred Offensive Line Depth Chart after day 1:

1st Team:
Williams - Banks - Brendel - Burford - McGlinchey

2nd/3rd Team:
McKivitz/Moore/Brunskill - Moore/Zakelj - Brunskill - Moore/Brunskill - Moore/McKivitz/Brunskill

Outside looking in:
Skule, Sutherland, Shleuter, Po, West

Off the bench, McKivitz would come in at LT; Moore at LG, RG, and RT; and Brunskill at C.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
thats the part where i said the paper lies and doesn't tell the whole story.

it's no miracle we gave up 2 total sacks the entire playoffs.. with the "high pressure rate", jimmy should be in a wheel chair

Thought it was 4 but even so Cincy gave up 19. Hard to reconcile all pressures being equal when some turn into sacks while some are just an incompletion and even some get turned into positive plays.

You all are hung up on the wrong thing. It doesn't matter whether the play turned into a positive. We are not talking about the offense as a whole. We are simply trying to isolate the O line play in order to judge their performance compared to the other 13 playoff O lines. To put it into perspective. CIN averaged 42 pass snaps per game in the playoffs. The 49ers averaged 27 pass snaps per game in the playoffs. Inspite of a poor running game, Jimmy wasn't asked to throw the ball nearly as much. The O line was simply not good enough and yes, neither was Jimmy.

So here are the numbers by sack rate. I am sure a couple of you will find a way to move the goal posts again though. But here you go.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So here are the numbers by sack rate. I am sure a couple of you will find a way to move the goal posts again though. But here you go.

what does this supposed to show ?

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
thats the part where i said the paper lies and doesn't tell the whole story.

it's no miracle we gave up 2 total sacks the entire playoffs.. with the "high pressure rate", jimmy should be in a wheel chair

Thought it was 4 but even so Cincy gave up 19. Hard to reconcile all pressures being equal when some turn into sacks while some are just an incompletion and even some get turned into positive plays.

You all are hung up on the wrong thing. It doesn't matter whether the play turned into a positive. We are not talking about the offense as a whole. We are simply trying to isolate the O line play in order to judge their performance compared to the other 13 playoff O lines. To put it into perspective. CIN averaged 42 pass snaps per game in the playoffs. The 49ers averaged 27 pass snaps per game in the playoffs. Inspite of a poor running game, Jimmy wasn't asked to throw the ball nearly as much. The O line was simply not good enough and yes, neither was Jimmy.

not good enough is not us winning in the playoffs not leading 3/4s of the NFCCG. the film shows jimmy hesitating and creating his own pressure. The plays and the open options are there

Stafford didn't hesitate on his short throws to counter the rush, jimmy did. that is the difference in the game when it counted

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
So here are the numbers by sack rate. I am sure a couple of you will find a way to move the goal posts again though. But here you go.

what does this supposed to show ?

JC. I honestly don't care if anyone's opinion is swayed. You all will believe what you want inspite of the evidence put in front of you anyway. So I am just wasting my time. Good day.