49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
But he isn't right because he blamed that a on the OL prioritization after the SuperBowl. Nothing else. So no one takes the "I believe Jr's every units fault" seriously.

If you want to say the OL team building strategy cost us the 3rd most out of everythwon't. Dont think anyone will disagree. If you continue with the everything is equal stuff then we wont.

Also Could have sworn you and I talked about being wrong on Brunskill yesterday, previously as well, lol. What a joke

Love you guys. It's almost like you share in a group delusion and never read or comprehend...anything outside that.

NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva: He was right but we'll never admit it except Daniel Brunskill.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Saw a report where he threw like 4 or 5 INTs yesterday.

I've been keeping up on him and didn't hear that. Heard he's throwing some dots and had a pass just missing Harry that Eddie Jackson intercepted.

Who cares. How's Mac Jones doing?

Looking like he's fit as f**k. In a worst scenario than last year but dude took his nutrition to the next level. I imagine he will be a good QB again but not elite.

LOL. Really? I haven't followed him for a while. That's pretty funny about his nutrition.

Who dafuq is this? He doesn't even look 12 anymore either. Did he tap into Pete Carroll's PED slow-release gum?

Whatever he did it worked. Happy to always have more good young QBs in the NFL.

True. Great first year. I haven't kept up with the Pats. Do they have someone better than Kendrick Bourne as their #1 receiver now? Their OL did well in pressure rate which is key for an immobile QB.

Their defense got absolutely exposed late in the season and esp. in the playoffs. I'm sure Hoodie is all over that.

That's true but his ADOT was lower than Jimmy's. LOL

Now that I would expect! LOL

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
isn't Poe a guard, West is the C

Nothing Poe can't do.

he has already surpassed korey sheets ,. getting closer to haynes on his way to challenging nate davis

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's only you and 3 others interpretation which per usual, is wildly inaccurate and bizarre especially the bold. LOL.

Reality. NC notes after the draft/FA concerns about the team building strategy around OL (and DB) and how that might cost us in the end (talent + injury). 2019 and 2021 it is A big reason in costing us in not winnong or reaching the Superbowl. NC also adds a grocery long list of other issues that cost us too.

Every objective fan: True.

NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva: He was right but we'll never admit it except Daniel Brunskill.

Also 9ers4eva: The team building strategy for the DB's might cost us.

NC: I totally agree.

Reality: It did.

NY: How can I twist all of this??? PM's Hoov. LOL

But he isn't right because he blamed that all on the OL prioritization after the SuperBowl. Nothing else. So no one takes the "I believe its every units fault" seriously.

If you want to say the OL team building strategy cost us the 3rd most out of everything i dont think anyone will disagree. If you continue with the everything is equal stuff then we wont.

Case. In. Point.

That's only you and 3 others interpretation which per usual, is wildly inaccurate and bizarre especially the bold. LOL.

Reality. NC notes after the draft/FA concerns about the team building strategy around OL (and DB) and how that might cost us in the end (talent + injury). 2019 and 2021 it is A big reason in costing us in not winnong or reaching the Superbowl. NC also adds a grocery long list of other issues that cost us too.

You and 85 need to find some common ground and talk your differences out. You both are great for this site but this playground act is getting a bit old.

Originally posted by NCommand:
True. Great first year. I haven't kept up with the Pats. Do they have someone better than Kendrick Bourne as their #1 receiver now? Their OL did well in pressure rate which is key for an immobile QB.

Their defense got absolutely exposed late in the season and esp. in the playoffs. I'm sure Hoodie is all over that.

They spent a $85M on two TEs last yr. And another $40M on two WRs. They traded for Devante Parker this yr.

yeah that OL was chalk full of day 3 guys. I think their only former 1st rd pick was Isaiah Wynn. It was a lot of dump offs, running the ball and playing great D. Jones was a very good game manager for a rookie. I expected nothing less from him. Tossing him on the Jags, ATL, Bears, Jets would have been much worse for him. Great landing spot for Mac.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
isn't Poe a guard, West is the C

Nothing Poe can't do.

he has already surpassed korey sheets ,. getting closer to haynes on his way to challenging nate davis

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's only you and 3 others interpretation which per usual, is wildly inaccurate and bizarre especially the bold. LOL.

Reality. NC notes after the draft/FA concerns about the team building strategy around OL (and DB) and how that might cost us in the end (talent + injury). 2019 and 2021 it is A big reason in costing us in not winning or reaching the Superbowl. NC also adds a grocery long list of other issues that cost us too.

Every objective fan: True.

NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva: He was right but we'll never admit it except Daniel Brunskill.

Also 9ers4eva: The team building strategy for the DB's might cost us.

NC: I totally agree.

Reality: It did.

NY: How can I twist all of this to deflect from being so incredibly wrong on this topic again for so many years??? PM's Hoov. LOL

Lol gotta love what NC thinks is true….you should be a politician with the way you fabricate things.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
True. Great first year. I haven't kept up with the Pats. Do they have someone better than Kendrick Bourne as their #1 receiver now? Their OL did well in pressure rate which is key for an immobile QB.

Their defense got absolutely exposed late in the season and esp. in the playoffs. I'm sure Hoodie is all over that.

They spent a $85M on two TEs last yr. And another $40M on two WRs. They traded for Devante Parker this yr.

yeah that OL was chalk full of day 3 guys. I think their only former 1st rd pick was Isaiah Wynn. It was a lot of dump offs, running the ball and playing great D. Jones was a very good game manager for a rookie. I expected nothing less from him. Tossing him on the Jags, ATL, Bears, Jets would have been much worse for him. Great landing spot for Mac.

See YAC, this is our common ground. LOL

Totally agree on all of this. And thanks for the info.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by A-R-S:
This feels kind of like a slow motion train crash
we know the o-line is a liability
they know the o-line is a liability
my dog knows the o-line is a liability

yet here we go

Also NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva:

"Good enough."

Personally I don't know what we have on that OLine. It could be good enough, it might be bad enough.

What I do agree is that from here on in, until we do know that the OLine is at least average, to above average or more, I like what Kyle has done recently in picking 2 OLinemen in the draft every year for the last two years. I hope he continues that.

I can see the development program as (a) use the first round pick on the defensive line, (b) use one day 2 pick on skill positions and one day 2 pick on a Olineman (c) use at least one day 3 pick on OLine depth.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's only you and 3 others interpretation which per usual, is wildly inaccurate and bizarre especially the bold. LOL.

Reality. NC notes after the draft/FA concerns about the team building strategy around OL (and DB) and how that might cost us in the end (talent + injury). 2019 and 2021 it is A big reason in costing us in not winning or reaching the Superbowl. NC also adds a grocery long list of other issues that cost us too.

Every objective fan: True.

NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva: He was right but we'll never admit it except Daniel Brunskill.

Also 9ers4eva: The team building strategy for the DB's might cost us.

NC: I totally agree.

Reality: It did.

NY: How can I twist all of this to deflect from being so incredibly wrong on this topic again for so many years??? PM's Hoov. LOL

Lol gotta love what NC thinks is true….you should be a politician with the way you fabricate things.

Haha. You'd be the best defense lawyer ever! I just showed two perfect evidence examples above and you just instantly moved the jury off them both.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by A-R-S:
This feels kind of like a slow motion train crash
we know the o-line is a liability
they know the o-line is a liability
my dog knows the o-line is a liability

yet here we go

Also NY85/All/Hoov/9ers4eva:

"Good enough."

Personally I don't know what we have on that OLine. It could be good enough, it might be bad enough.

What I do agree is that from here on in, until we do know that the OLine is at least average, to above average or more, I like what Kyle has done recently in picking 2 OLinemen in the draft every year for the last two years. I hope he continues that.

I can see the development program as (a) use the first round pick on the defensive line, (b) use one day 2 pick on skill positions and one day 2 pick on a Olineman (c) use at least one day 3 pick on OLine depth.

The "good enough" was just a joke (for this year). That was their feelings every year prior including last year.

This year? We should all be on the same page. Brand new personnel. Brand new competitions. Brand new scheme. Brand new QB. Brand new coaches/perspectives.

We don't know anything right now. Nothing to predict.

Originally posted by NCommand:
True. Great first year. I haven't kept up with the Pats. Do they have someone better than Kendrick Bourne as their #1 receiver now? Their OL did well in pressure rate which is key for an immobile QB.

Their defense got absolutely exposed late in the season and esp. in the playoffs. I'm sure Hoodie is all over that.

Who's more likely to win a super bowl first, Kyle with Lance or the pats with Mac? 🤔

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

You know, if you just want to take over this whole thread from here on out, I'll happily oblige.

Those are eye opening statistics.

There are a few things that really stood out to me. Joe Burrow was good enough under pressure to make the SB. We all pretty much knew that. Mac Jones was actually pretty solid under pressure. Big Ben and Tom Brady aren't what they used to be.

The 41.3% pressure rating on Jimmy is disappointing. I don't remember if Trent was hurt in the Dallas game or not, but I think he played more than one post season game hurt? Anyway, that 41.3% can't happen in the playoffs - if the 49ers want to have a shot at the 🏆'th Lombardi.

Trent played well in both the DAL and GB game. He was credited with 1 pressure in each game which was slightly above his regular season average. Tom Compton and Laken Tomlinson both gave up 9 pressures each. Daniel Brunskill gave up 5 and Alex Mack gave up 3.

I think in this particular game, Trey's mobility would have been a factor in helping that pressure rate. The rams had Von coming in from the edge and Donald coming in from the interior. That's going to give any OLine problems. When the 49ers played NY Giants and Lawrence Taylor in the NFCCG - Joe's mobility really did help a lot to neutralized Lawrence Taylor's pass rush.

Not on the pressure rate % stats. Only on what he does after he's pressured.

Trey...Jimmy...Montana...Young...you don't want ANY 49ers QB pressured that much.

Until I see how they grade the stats, I'm skeptical. A lot of these advanced stats are too subjective in my view. Point is, the 41% pressure rate, how is that actually graded and differentiated from a (for example) blitz vs a missed handoff on a tackle/end twist? Jimmy was pretty high up there when blitzed QB ratings-wise, but then he's pressured and his numbers drop drastically? I do know that Trent was injured, and so the OLine is limited in sliding the protections one way or the other with a one legged Trent. Add in the fact that the Ram's DLine was a one time bought and paid for mercenary DLine unlike the 49er DLine, and I have a lot of salt I'm depositing for these so called stats.

Pressure rate isn't super hard to determine. There is going to be a tad subjectivity in it though.

Start with only passing downs. Then, is he moved off his spot? And when? Under 3s or over 3s? Does it force him to speed up his delivery, throw early, scramble, rush up through a hole, side step, shuffle, etc.?

Pretty much any duress under some operational definition on time. Then after that point, it's on the QB...not on the OL.

Moved off his spot - does the mobility of the QB matter? I would think a defensive coordinator will blitz a mobile QB less than an pocket QB due to the escapability dimension. Also line stunts and dogs are not a rush containment strategy and a mobile QB can escape through the cracks in a rush containment strategy.

No, I would guestimate an evaluator would simply look at 2, 3, 5 and 7 step drops. If he's altered in any way within the drop back, that's a pressure. If he's on a designed role out, PA, etc. same concept. If he has to alter his path, that's a pressure.

Under 3 or Over 3 - Pass blocking sets, I think, differ between under 3 yards to pass vs longer passes that have to go over 3. I.e. 3 step slants vs 5 step drops, vs 7 step drops and play actions. Those are all different kinds of pass blocking sets. If your Left Tackle is injured, I'm assuming that skews the pressure rates a bit from a normal pressure rate.

Totally. That's why I would think they'd have a clicker for each drop back for 2, 3, 5, 7 and PA. Getting a pressure on a slant would be incredibly challenging. Injuries don't factor into the stat itself. A pressure is a pressure. Like the TW and McKivitz example. It's still 5 either way. 1 just happens to be as a result of an injury and the other, a talent issue.

QB Ratings - are affected by the defensive backs and defensive coverage. Guys like Deion limited QB ratings to his side sub 70%, and guys like Donte Johnson - actually elevate a QB's ratings + 100%

So again, a lot of these statistics are interesting, but I take them with a heavy truckload of salt.

Tight DB coverage can absolutely affect pressure rates. It forces the QB to hold it longer or he's hesitating and indecisive. Like play calling can too; longer developing plays take longer so the PP has to hold. We actually have a distinct advantage since we rely on 2.5s passes for RAC where the Rams have to hold to 2.8s for more intermediate passes.

That said, pressures are simply tallied either way. A pressure is a pressure is a pressure and the correlation to success and failure is a tried and true correlation since the dawn of time, I would imagine.

Well yes, a pressure is a pressure, but sometimes a pressure is designed. Those RPOs - have a designed guy unblocked. When it works, it usually works great. When it doesn't then it looks like a pressure - but it was intended vs accidentall.

My simple point is that arguing stats are nice, and they are valid measurements of performance, but you have to be careful of what you are measuring. Sometimes its addressing the question of "are you seeing what I'm seeing?" But more often than not its addressing the question "WHY aren't you seeing what I'm seeing."

Anyway, I'd join PFF if I had to money too. I'm just too cheap.😉😛😋

I plan on canceling my subscription before I am charged another $35. I might pay for a month subscription in the off season every year now though.

Either way, appreciate what you brought to the topic. Obviously there are a few who will see what they want to see but for the rest of us, it validated what many already knew or suspected. Some was even surprising.

Originally posted by Sickaa:

Originally posted by NCommand:
True. Great first year. I haven't kept up with the Pats. Do they have someone better than Kendrick Bourne as their #1 receiver now? Their OL did well in pressure rate which is key for an immobile QB.

Their defense got absolutely exposed late in the season and esp. in the playoffs. I'm sure Hoodie is all over that.

Who's more likely to win a super bowl first, Kyle with Lance or the pats with Mac? 🤔

If ShanaLynch don't fix the OL and injury bug, maybe DB issue, Trey will end up being moot in the end no matter his talent level (see, Mahomes/Wilson). Hoodie could build the best team ever around Mac but Mac may not have the talent level to take them over the top.

I'd say Trey has the edge right now.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

You know, if you just want to take over this whole thread from here on out, I'll happily oblige.

Those are eye opening statistics.

There are a few things that really stood out to me. Joe Burrow was good enough under pressure to make the SB. We all pretty much knew that. Mac Jones was actually pretty solid under pressure. Big Ben and Tom Brady aren't what they used to be.

The 41.3% pressure rating on Jimmy is disappointing. I don't remember if Trent was hurt in the Dallas game or not, but I think he played more than one post season game hurt? Anyway, that 41.3% can't happen in the playoffs - if the 49ers want to have a shot at the 🏆'th Lombardi.

Trent played well in both the DAL and GB game. He was credited with 1 pressure in each game which was slightly above his regular season average. Tom Compton and Laken Tomlinson both gave up 9 pressures each. Daniel Brunskill gave up 5 and Alex Mack gave up 3.

I think in this particular game, Trey's mobility would have been a factor in helping that pressure rate. The rams had Von coming in from the edge and Donald coming in from the interior. That's going to give any OLine problems. When the 49ers played NY Giants and Lawrence Taylor in the NFCCG - Joe's mobility really did help a lot to neutralized Lawrence Taylor's pass rush.

Not on the pressure rate % stats. Only on what he does after he's pressured.

Trey...Jimmy...Montana...Young...you don't want ANY 49ers QB pressured that much.

Until I see how they grade the stats, I'm skeptical. A lot of these advanced stats are too subjective in my view. Point is, the 41% pressure rate, how is that actually graded and differentiated from a (for example) blitz vs a missed handoff on a tackle/end twist? Jimmy was pretty high up there when blitzed QB ratings-wise, but then he's pressured and his numbers drop drastically? I do know that Trent was injured, and so the OLine is limited in sliding the protections one way or the other with a one legged Trent. Add in the fact that the Ram's DLine was a one time bought and paid for mercenary DLine unlike the 49er DLine, and I have a lot of salt I'm depositing for these so called stats.

Pressure rate isn't super hard to determine. There is going to be a tad subjectivity in it though.

Start with only passing downs. Then, is he moved off his spot? And when? Under 3s or over 3s? Does it force him to speed up his delivery, throw early, scramble, rush up through a hole, side step, shuffle, etc.?

Pretty much any duress under some operational definition on time. Then after that point, it's on the QB...not on the OL.

Moved off his spot - does the mobility of the QB matter? I would think a defensive coordinator will blitz a mobile QB less than an pocket QB due to the escapability dimension. Also line stunts and dogs are not a rush containment strategy and a mobile QB can escape through the cracks in a rush containment strategy.

No, I would guestimate an evaluator would simply look at 2, 3, 5 and 7 step drops. If he's altered in any way within the drop back, that's a pressure. If he's on a designed role out, PA, etc. same concept. If he has to alter his path, that's a pressure.

Under 3 or Over 3 - Pass blocking sets, I think, differ between under 3 yards to pass vs longer passes that have to go over 3. I.e. 3 step slants vs 5 step drops, vs 7 step drops and play actions. Those are all different kinds of pass blocking sets. If your Left Tackle is injured, I'm assuming that skews the pressure rates a bit from a normal pressure rate.

Totally. That's why I would think they'd have a clicker for each drop back for 2, 3, 5, 7 and PA. Getting a pressure on a slant would be incredibly challenging. Injuries don't factor into the stat itself. A pressure is a pressure. Like the TW and McKivitz example. It's still 5 either way. 1 just happens to be as a result of an injury and the other, a talent issue.

QB Ratings - are affected by the defensive backs and defensive coverage. Guys like Deion limited QB ratings to his side sub 70%, and guys like Donte Johnson - actually elevate a QB's ratings + 100%

So again, a lot of these statistics are interesting, but I take them with a heavy truckload of salt.

Tight DB coverage can absolutely affect pressure rates. It forces the QB to hold it longer or he's hesitating and indecisive. Like play calling can too; longer developing plays take longer so the PP has to hold. We actually have a distinct advantage since we rely on 2.5s passes for RAC where the Rams have to hold to 2.8s for more intermediate passes.

That said, pressures are simply tallied either way. A pressure is a pressure is a pressure and the correlation to success and failure is a tried and true correlation since the dawn of time, I would imagine.

Well yes, a pressure is a pressure, but sometimes a pressure is designed. Those RPOs - have a designed guy unblocked. When it works, it usually works great. When it doesn't then it looks like a pressure - but it was intended vs accidentall.

My simple point is that arguing stats are nice, and they are valid measurements of performance, but you have to be careful of what you are measuring. Sometimes its addressing the question of "are you seeing what I'm seeing?" But more often than not its addressing the question "WHY aren't you seeing what I'm seeing."

Anyway, I'd join PFF if I had to money too. I'm just too cheap.😉😛😋

I plan on canceling my subscription before I am charged another $35. I might pay for a month subscription in the off season every year now though.

Either way, appreciate what you brought to the topic. Obviously there are a few who will see what they want to see but for the rest of us, it validated what many already knew or suspected. Some was even surprising.

You're welcome. I still have 3 weeks left. I was thinking about diving into our secondary next.