49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Wouldn't you rather have a pass protection where your first-time starting QB isn't put into position where he has to transcend that?

We all know you can only dodge a train so long before it hits you. And quite honestly, he's got far more important things to worry about in Kyle's offense.

No other position is expected to transcend another positions responsibility...esp. on a regular basis.

The pass to Gray was because Trey didn't have to leave the pocket and had time to make the pass. This will not be a successful offense consistently if Trey is running around, likely to get hit hard (as he did in this last preseason game). It's simple: if you can prevent your QB from taking hits, why wouldn't you?

Further, this is a ground and pound offense. If they can't run and keep the clock moving, we are going to have problems sustaining offense. Just as we're getting better as a team, opposing coordinators have another year of film on the 49ers. I'm telling you everyone will evaluate the Green Bay film or the NFCCG film when it comes to the ground game.

The joint practices should be interesting.

Since when is outside zone ground and pound? That isnt what we do at all. We MIGHT try to bring a little of that back in if Sermon pans out but we are an edge rush team and have been since Kyle came through the door. I expect a steady diet of play action and bootleg off of that due to Lance's big arm and mobility... that will be the new wrinkle. There is no gimmick here, Kyle is going to ask the opposing safeties to guess if they need to come down hill or go into the back pedal and then scheme the ball to go where ever they aren't. Protection has to be good but not amazing. Just like always we are putting a premium on pulling guards who can get their ass to the edge, that is going to mean some protection issues here and there, it just does, there aren't that many guys who can do both reliably and nobody has more than one maybe two. Line play in the league just isn't as good as you all think it is.

I think he means it's just run-centric. Both HaRoman and Kyle were/are heavy run-centric with a complimentary passing game off its success.

That's exactly what I meant. Kyle will tell you that he perceives his team as TOUGH so ground and pound was just a sloppy way of talking about our run-first mentality. Does Kyle put a premium on pulling guards? Interesting. That's the first I've read that in this thread. CV in NT is that Kyle puts a premium on tackles. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for us to put a premium on guards.

We seem to lucked out with Buford and he fell to us because when I look at Skule and McKivitz - oof, we're not winning. Banks has been looking better but I'm betting still has a ways to go. I'm really impressed that Buford is forcing Brunskill to the bench or even may force him to compete at swing tackle.

TBF, the FO had a 3rd round grade on Burford and Scotty McDrunk had a 2nd. Banks was a 2nd. So there is legit talent there. But like MM said himself, G is the most demanding position on the team next to QB. So these young bucks have a lot to learn and a lot on their plates. It's going to take some time before we see what their ceilings are and how close they are to reaching them. Having help at C and T will be huge.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I think Brunskill at Right Tackle is better than Brunskill at Guard and Compton at Right Tackle. Assuming Burford wins the Right Guard spot.

It's common sense but Kyle doesn't see it that way.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Wouldn't you rather have a pass protection where your first-time starting QB isn't put into position where he has to transcend that?

We all know you can only dodge a train so long before it hits you. And quite honestly, he's got far more important things to worry about in Kyle's offense.

No other position is expected to transcend another positions responsibility...esp. on a regular basis.

The pass to Gray was because Trey didn't have to leave the pocket and had time to make the pass. This will not be a successful offense consistently if Trey is running around, likely to get hit hard (as he did in this last preseason game). It's simple: if you can prevent your QB from taking hits, why wouldn't you?

Further, this is a ground and pound offense. If they can't run and keep the clock moving, we are going to have problems sustaining offense. Just as we're getting better as a team, opposing coordinators have another year of film on the 49ers. I'm telling you everyone will evaluate the Green Bay film or the NFCCG film when it comes to the ground game.

The joint practices should be interesting.

Since when is outside zone ground and pound? That isnt what we do at all. We MIGHT try to bring a little of that back in if Sermon pans out but we are an edge rush team and have been since Kyle came through the door. I expect a steady diet of play action and bootleg off of that due to Lance's big arm and mobility... that will be the new wrinkle. There is no gimmick here, Kyle is going to ask the opposing safeties to guess if they need to come down hill or go into the back pedal and then scheme the ball to go where ever they aren't. Protection has to be good but not amazing. Just like always we are putting a premium on pulling guards who can get their ass to the edge, that is going to mean some protection issues here and there, it just does, there aren't that many guys who can do both reliably and nobody has more than one maybe two. Line play in the league just isn't as good as you all think it is.

I think he means it's just run-centric. Both HaRoman and Kyle were/are heavy run-centric with a complimentary passing game off its success.

That's exactly what I meant. Kyle will tell you that he perceives his team as TOUGH so ground and pound was just a sloppy way of talking about our run-first mentality. Does Kyle put a premium on pulling guards? Interesting. That's the first I've read that in this thread. CV in NT is that Kyle puts a premium on tackles. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for us to put a premium on guards.

We seem to lucked out with Buford and he fell to us because when I look at Skule and McKivitz - oof, we're not winning. Banks has been looking better but I'm betting still has a ways to go. I'm really impressed that Buford is forcing Brunskill to the bench or even may force him to compete at swing tackle.

TBF, the FO had a 3rd round grade on Burford and Scotty McDrunk had a 2nd. Banks was a 2nd. So there is legit talent there. But like MM said himself, G is the most demanding position on the team next to QB. So these young bucks have a lot to learn and a lot on their plates. It's going to take some time before we see what their ceilings are and how close they are to reaching them. Having help at C and T will be huge.

I'm still holding out the faint hope Zakelj can help out ar C or T this year.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by elguapo:
It was said during 11 on 11's we gave up 4 would be sacks. Not good

Not bad in my book, if they played the backup tackles and the rookie interior linemen against the Vikings 1's.

Only back up that started was McKivitz.

Colton is a 5th round pick, so I'm hoping he's another diamond in the rough that will develop into an all pro Tackle. If he has real talent, all he needs is more reps, like Trey. Hope hope.

If we just can't get decent pass protection we can win the Super Bowl. If not it's going to be a struggle. Maybe Brunskill can move to RT until MM is all good.

we will not compete for the division crown if the crappy pass protection continues.. and spare me people.. it takes time to jell... the possible probable quarterback of this team for the next 15 years who has good weapons is nothing without a good o line to protect him. when it sucked in otas.... people said.. its only otas.... when it sucked in the first days of practice... well its only the first day of practice. now it sucks i pre season and i am sure people will say.. well wait till the first game.. when it sucks the first game. they will say.. well we need to give em ten games to jell.. for gods sake

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Wouldn't you rather have a pass protection where your first-time starting QB isn't put into position where he has to transcend that?

We all know you can only dodge a train so long before it hits you. And quite honestly, he's got far more important things to worry about in Kyle's offense.

No other position is expected to transcend another positions responsibility...esp. on a regular basis.

The pass to Gray was because Trey didn't have to leave the pocket and had time to make the pass. This will not be a successful offense consistently if Trey is running around, likely to get hit hard (as he did in this last preseason game). It's simple: if you can prevent your QB from taking hits, why wouldn't you?

Further, this is a ground and pound offense. If they can't run and keep the clock moving, we are going to have problems sustaining offense. Just as we're getting better as a team, opposing coordinators have another year of film on the 49ers. I'm telling you everyone will evaluate the Green Bay film or the NFCCG film when it comes to the ground game.

The joint practices should be interesting.

Since when is outside zone ground and pound? That isnt what we do at all. We MIGHT try to bring a little of that back in if Sermon pans out but we are an edge rush team and have been since Kyle came through the door. I expect a steady diet of play action and bootleg off of that due to Lance's big arm and mobility... that will be the new wrinkle. There is no gimmick here, Kyle is going to ask the opposing safeties to guess if they need to come down hill or go into the back pedal and then scheme the ball to go where ever they aren't. Protection has to be good but not amazing. Just like always we are putting a premium on pulling guards who can get their ass to the edge, that is going to mean some protection issues here and there, it just does, there aren't that many guys who can do both reliably and nobody has more than one maybe two. Line play in the league just isn't as good as you all think it is.

I think he means it's just run-centric. Both HaRoman and Kyle were/are heavy run-centric with a complimentary passing game off its success.

That's exactly what I meant. Kyle will tell you that he perceives his team as TOUGH so ground and pound was just a sloppy way of talking about our run-first mentality. Does Kyle put a premium on pulling guards? Interesting. That's the first I've read that in this thread. CV in NT is that Kyle puts a premium on tackles. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for us to put a premium on guards.

We seem to lucked out with Buford and he fell to us because when I look at Skule and McKivitz - oof, we're not winning. Banks has been looking better but I'm betting still has a ways to go. I'm really impressed that Buford is forcing Brunskill to the bench or even may force him to compete at swing tackle.

TBF, the FO had a 3rd round grade on Burford and Scotty McDrunk had a 2nd. Banks was a 2nd. So there is legit talent there. But like MM said himself, G is the most demanding position on the team next to QB. So these young bucks have a lot to learn and a lot on their plates. It's going to take some time before we see what their ceilings are and how close they are to reaching them. Having help at C and T will be huge.

I'm still holding out the faint hope Zakelj can help out ar C or T this year.

You mean Nick Zakelj, practice squad player?

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by elguapo:
It was said during 11 on 11's we gave up 4 would be sacks. Not good

Not bad in my book, if they played the backup tackles and the rookie interior linemen against the Vikings 1's.

Only back up that started was McKivitz.

Colton is a 5th round pick, so I'm hoping he's another diamond in the rough that will develop into an all pro Tackle. If he has real talent, all he needs is more reps, like Trey. Hope hope.

If we just can't get decent pass protection we can win the Super Bowl. If not it's going to be a struggle. Maybe Brunskill can move to RT until MM is all good.

we will not compete for the division crown if the crappy pass protection continues.. and spare me people.. it takes time to jell... the possible probable quarterback of this team for the next 15 years who has good weapons is nothing without a good o line to protect him. when it sucked in otas.... people said.. its only otas.... when it sucked in the first days of practice... well its only the first day of practice. now it sucks i pre season and i am sure people will say.. well wait till the first game.. when it sucks the first game. they will say.. well we need to give em ten games to jell.. for gods sake

You are just too optimistic CC!

But i have to say, this line feels a lot better than the 2017 Offensive Line.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
I just want to respond and say not everyone in the NFL from a coaching stand point believes this.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2463172-lack-of-offensive-line-development-in-nfl-falls-on-league-coaches.amp.html

I never said everyone agrees, but it is the general consensus around the league and has been for a long time.

No it's not. I'm sorry bud, that's jut not true. That article talks about it in detail that the "general consensus" myth stemmed out of one coach (Tom Cable) who gave an interview.

The "quality" issue has more to do with time than talent. Quite simply college offenses are asking players to do something somewhat different than average NFL pro-style offenses. Coaches now need to invest more time in developing their OL than previously. Also you have CBA that seriously reduces the number of practices/reps that are needed. Simply put it's much easier for a team to build a quality OL in FA than it is to develop a home-grown one particularly if you're a few guys away from a champ roster (current example? Bengals). Easier for bad teams to draft OL high knowing some of those guys will be foundational pieces to the org, develop them and add pieces as you find them in FA.

Long gone are the days when you can keep an OL project on the roster for 5+ seasons and be ready for him to take a spot. If he performs then great. If he doesn't it's relatively easy at a certain level - let me repeat - at a certain level of player to replace him. Example? Players like Brunskill, Person, et al - journeymen player who might be able to excel with great or outstanding talent at other positions depending on your offensive scheme.

As I mentioned above, Cable was interviewed in 2016 and many of the articles written about the "complaint" come in 2017. The best OL coaches still say the same thing:

There's no dearth of talent. Players just need to be coached:

As the league struggles to hone the skills of its offensive linemen—in part because of their background in spread offenses, in part because of their accrued lack of practice time, and in part because of myriad other factors—Bentley feels that it's essential for teams to seek out players with projectable traits, even if those traits don't necessarily blow people away. "[Coaches say], 'I can't develop this player,'" Bentley says. "Fine. At least [the traits that] I have on film from college are based on an identifiable, transferable skill set that at minimum is going to show up in the NFL. And in that reality, you usually have a player that can keep his head above water."

The challenge for coaches and evaluators becomes determining which skills are transferable without much development. Bentley thinks this starts by examining the simplest stuff, like a player's pre-snap stance, before then evaluating his understanding of angles and leverage. Zierlein primarily values intelligence, and not the kind that players can show by working on a white board. He wants to know how surprised offensive linemen will be when they're presented with opposing twists and blitzes.

For Bentley, solving the game's most glaring positional crisis has become about learning how to deal with the factors that have created it. "[Coaches] are never getting back more time," Bentley says, "and they shouldn't!" It's up to decision-makers across the league to discern what type of players represent the best bets, and the stakes for getting that right are high: The quality of line play goes a long way in determining how much exciting offense appears on TV every Sunday. Other than unearthing a dozen great young quarterbacks, the NFL's best path to avoiding unwatchable football is to create a larger pool of serviceable offensive linemen. It's that pursuit that may have front offices changing what they look for at the position.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason

Just like in the first article, the hones lies on NFL teams to coach better in the new CBA system and identify transferrable traits they observe during the draft process, not just throw hands up and declare "there's a lack of talent" which just isn't true. Again another complex issue and just simply "talent doesn't exist as it did before."

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Hawaii49er:
I was on a vikings forum just to really see how we were doing beyond the fluff out there on social media. The site, purplepainforums (gotta admit, pretty cool) mentions our oline getting torched, especially when Vikes Hunter and Zadarius lines up side by side.

Yep what I've been hearing from various folks at Vikings practices.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Hawaii49er:
I was on a vikings forum just to really see how we were doing beyond the fluff out there on social media. The site, purplepainforums (gotta admit, pretty cool) mentions our oline getting torched, especially when Vikes Hunter and Zadarius lines up side by side.

Yep what I've been hearing from various folks at Vikings practices.

This is not good news. I was hoping they'd bounce back today. Nope.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Hawaii49er:
I was on a vikings forum just to really see how we were doing beyond the fluff out there on social media. The site, purplepainforums (gotta admit, pretty cool) mentions our oline getting torched, especially when Vikes Hunter and Zadarius lines up side by side.

Yep what I've been hearing from various folks at Vikings practices.

This is not good news. I was hoping they'd bounce back today. Nope.

you can dream nc...we have a problem with the o line... jellingexcuses not withstanding

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
They can keep banging their heads against a wall with Brunskill who has looked lost all preseason or you know....