49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sorry NY but I know this info probably to a fault. Forester had two maybe THREE good OLs - and NONE in this decade.

Coached two the best OTs because of him or because those guys were pretty ridiculously good. It's like saying Larry Kirksey was one of the best WR coaches because he coached Rice and Owens.

Good compared to what? What you think is good? Sorry dude saying he has two or "maybe" 3 good OLs is such a subjected take and having a debate based on that is a massive waste of time.

yes he did coach two of the best OTs of all time and both loved him. He's regarded as one of the best OZ OL coaches in the league for some time now. I don't think he's elite but he most certainly doesn't suck, especially for the system we run.

Originally posted by NCommand:
OMG yes. Kyle has said numerous times he only notices the OL if he happens to look up from his play sheet and something negative is happening. It's a massive blind spot for him IMHO. Eric Davis also talked about how the standards for this unit has really dropped off over the years. There lacks accountability.

Lol that's what you got from that, of course. I promise you Kyle knows more about OL than any person in the WZ 10xs over.

Stink said it's about about the unit working together. Good bad has to be as a unit. What also stuck out was you could stuff a dude that's way more athletic 80% of the time and still get called out as awful from the fan base.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
OMG yes. Kyle has said numerous times he only notices the OL if he happens to look up from his play sheet and something negative is happening. It's a massive blind spot for him IMHO. Eric Davis also talked about how the standards for this unit has really dropped off over the years. There lacks accountability.

Lol that's what you got from that, of course. I promise you Kyle knows more about OL than any person in the WZ 10xs over.

Stink said it's about about the unit working together. Good bad has to be as a unit. What also stuck out was you could stuff a dude that's way more athletic 80% of the time and still get called out as awful from the fan base.

Lol

Listened to Steve Hutchinson talk about pass-pro. Like Stink said the DL in front of you is more often then not, more athletic. Their job is to get from point A to point B. So as a lineman the job is about reaction and recovery. Good DL won't give you their chest all day or they won't have a job for long…so you need to find what is available to strike.

He said when he watches film today, there is zero consistency across the board at any level in a lot of players technique. It's a problem across the league and lack of practice (with the new CBA) is a massive issue.

Hands, feet, balance and eyes all have to work in unison to be consistently successful in pass-pro. Like a lot of things it's all about repetition. During his Seattle days they would do the same drills over and over and over. It created GOOD habits. This is the problem with lineman and pass-pro. Most colleges aren't running offense that require proper pass sets. They then come into the NFL and are starting over. OTA/training camps limit what you can do (no pads limited practices/reps). Development is slow at the position across the board because of all of this.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Listened to Steve Hutchinson talk about pass-pro. Like Stink said the DL in front of you is more often then not, more athletic. Their job is to get from point A to point B. So as a lineman the job is about reaction and recovery. Good DL won't give you their chest all day or they won't have a job for long…so you need to find what is available to strike.

He said when he watches film today, there is zero consistency across the board at any level in a lot of players technique. It's a problem across the league and lack of practice (with the new CBA) is a massive issue.

Hands, feet, balance and eyes all have to work in unison to be consistently successful in pass-pro. Like a lot of things it's all about repetition. During his Seattle days they would do the same drills over and over and over. It created GOOD habits. This is the problem with lineman and pass-pro. Most colleges aren't running offense that require proper pass sets. They then come into the NFL and are starting over. OTA/training camps limit what you can do (no pads limited practices/reps). Development is slow at the position across the board because of all of this.

This is so very true. It even extends off on the rest of the players such as the extra OL, TE's, RB's and FB's on how to pass protect and how to do it off of each other.

IMHO, the talent is still coming in. But it's a league wide coaching and development issue. If you find a good OL, you do not let him get away. It takes so long to develop these guys and like you noted, the CBA is one of those reasons that works against that.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
OMG yes. Kyle has said numerous times he only notices the OL if he happens to look up from his play sheet and something negative is happening. It's a massive blind spot for him IMHO. Eric Davis also talked about how the standards for this unit has really dropped off over the years. There lacks accountability.

Lol that's what you got from that, of course. I promise you Kyle knows more about OL than any person in the WZ 10xs over.

Stink said it's about about the unit working together. Good bad has to be as a unit. What also stuck out was you could stuff a dude that's way more athletic 80% of the time and still get called out as awful from the fan base.

Lol

"The head coach doesn't even know what we do."

Yeah, how could I get that from what Kyle himself has said? LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:
"The head coach doesn't even know what we do."

Yeah, how could I get that from what Kyle himself has said? LOL

Yeah Kyle the offensive guru has no understanding of blocking schemes or offensive line play

Originally posted by NinerGM:
It's a problem across the league because of of what you pointed out AND because OL coaching overall around the league isn't good - and that's not my opinion, that's from two of best OL coaches out there.

For sure coaching plays a big part. Never said it didn't. Getting into the blame game over it and not actually having any clue how they coach is muddy water imo.

Truth is these kids aren't running true pass sets in college for the most part. If you got to PFF they chart it in their draft profiles. The numbers are comical. Only way you get better at that is by having repetition in pads. The NFL has gone so backwards with all that, so much it's stunt the growth of a ton of lineman. That's not my opinion, that's coming from one of the best lineman of all time

It's the coaches job to find a way to get them to have good habits and reps regardless of all of it.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
This. It's not just the players, it's the coaches. We're not seeing a development of good OL coaches like we used to.

Most people can't even name 5 current OL coaches let alone decipher who's actually good/bad at their job.

I have no worries for this OL as long as they stay healthy.
Probably can survive with Mckivitz. But if Jaylon Moore has to take any snaps it's KO for the offense.
Lets hope Brunskill can get healthy because he's the perfect wildcard backup who can play EVERY position.
I like the duo of Burford-Banks, and I believe Brendel will be ok. The same as Lance, it'll be a rollercoaster because of the inexperience. But it's a long season, and we should see improvements as the season progress, as long as they all stay healthy.

The NFL is on a point when the OL is getting behind the DL. We see good or great pass rushers come into the league every year. It's easy to name great pass rushers in Watt, Bosa bros, Watt bros, Hunter, Crosby, Chandler, Burns, Gary, Zadarius... and the interior guys, Donald, Defo, Fletch, Grady, Armstead, Heyward, Vea, etc, etc.

It's not as easy to name good OL. Besides big Trent, the top LT are always hurt (Tyron, Bakh, Ronnie, Armstead). Great Centers I can just think of Kelly, Ragnow and Creed, Jensen went down. Guards? Big Q, Shaq, Thuney and some other dudes. RT, Ryan, Braden, Wirfs and Lane.

When guys like Laken Tomlinson get overpaid we see how thin the OL market is. There's not one NFL team who has 5 good or great starters on their OL, everyone has at least 2 question marks even the ones with the top OL in the league.
I like the approach of developing home grown talent in the OL. Foerster is a good coach as long as he keeps his nose away from the drugs. But that requires time and patience, something many many fans lack.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Listened to Steve Hutchinson talk about pass-pro. Like Stink said the DL in front of you is more often then not, more athletic. Their job is to get from point A to point B. So as a lineman the job is about reaction and recovery. Good DL won't give you their chest all day or they won't have a job for long…so you need to find what is available to strike.

He said when he watches film today, there is zero consistency across the board at any level in a lot of players technique. It's a problem across the league and lack of practice (with the new CBA) is a massive issue.

Hands, feet, balance and eyes all have to work in unison to be consistently successful in pass-pro. Like a lot of things it's all about repetition. During his Seattle days they would do the same drills over and over and over. It created GOOD habits. This is the problem with lineman and pass-pro. Most colleges aren't running offense that require proper pass sets. They then come into the NFL and are starting over. OTA/training camps limit what you can do (no pads limited practices/reps). Development is slow at the position across the board because of all of this.

This is so very true. It even extends off on the rest of the players such as the extra OL, TE's, RB's and FB's on how to pass protect and how to do it off of each other.

IMHO, the talent is still coming in. But it's a league wide coaching and development issue. If you find a good OL, you do not let him get away. It takes so long to develop these guys and like you noted, the CBA is one of those reasons that works against that.

Trent Williams will have to set up an Offensive Line university, next to Kittles Tight End university.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Listened to Steve Hutchinson talk about pass-pro. Like Stink said the DL in front of you is more often then not, more athletic. Their job is to get from point A to point B. So as a lineman the job is about reaction and recovery. Good DL won't give you their chest all day or they won't have a job for long…so you need to find what is available to strike.

He said when he watches film today, there is zero consistency across the board at any level in a lot of players technique. It's a problem across the league and lack of practice (with the new CBA) is a massive issue.

Hands, feet, balance and eyes all have to work in unison to be consistently successful in pass-pro. Like a lot of things it's all about repetition. During his Seattle days they would do the same drills over and over and over. It created GOOD habits. This is the problem with lineman and pass-pro. Most colleges aren't running offense that require proper pass sets. They then come into the NFL and are starting over. OTA/training camps limit what you can do (no pads limited practices/reps). Development is slow at the position across the board because of all of this.

This is so very true. It even extends off on the rest of the players such as the extra OL, TE's, RB's and FB's on how to pass protect and how to do it off of each other.

IMHO, the talent is still coming in. But it's a league wide coaching and development issue. If you find a good OL, you do not let him get away. It takes so long to develop these guys and like you noted, the CBA is one of those reasons that works against that.

Trent Williams will have to set up an Offensive Line university, next to Kittles Tight End university.

He should become a coach after he decides to retire. He understands nobody else has his alien physical gifts, but he teaches his impecable technique with precision.

I'm rather surprised we didn't pick up any talent off yesterdays waiver list. There's gotta be somebody better than Jaylon Moore and Banks out there!

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:
I have no worries for this OL as long as they stay healthy.
Probably can survive with Mckivitz. But if Jaylon Moore has to take any snaps it's KO for the offense.
Lets hope Brunskill can get healthy because he's the perfect wildcard backup who can play EVERY position.
I like the duo of Burford-Banks, and I believe Brendel will be ok. The same as Lance, it'll be a rollercoaster because of the inexperience. But it's a long season, and we should see improvements as the season progress, as long as they all stay healthy.

The NFL is on a point when the OL is getting behind the DL. We see good or great pass rushers come into the league every year. It's easy to name great pass rushers in Watt, Bosa bros, Watt bros, Hunter, Crosby, Chandler, Burns, Gary, Zadarius... and the interior guys, Donald, Defo, Fletch, Grady, Armstead, Heyward, Vea, etc, etc.

It's not as easy to name good OL. Besides big Trent, the top LT are always hurt (Tyron, Bakh, Ronnie, Armstead). Great Centers I can just think of Kelly, Ragnow and Creed, Jensen went down. Guards? Big Q, Shaq, Thuney and some other dudes. RT, Ryan, Braden, Wirfs and Lane.

When guys like Laken Tomlinson get overpaid we see how thin the OL market is. There's not one NFL team who has 5 good or great starters on their OL, everyone has at least 2 question marks even the ones with the top OL in the league.
I like the approach of developing home grown talent in the OL. Foerster is a good coach as long as he keeps his nose away from the drugs. But that requires time and patience, something many many fans lack.

I really think *durability* is the key in Offensive Line play. As NY85's tweet post said, the five guys have to play in unison. Take one piece off, and there is going to be some misfires. Last year, once McGlinchy was lost, the OLine play degraded until they had a couple of games under their belt and Tom Compton stepped up his OT game. Then the Line was average to good on the Left, and passable to OK on the right. Still wasn't an ideal OLine situation with no depth.

I think there is more depth of talent this year versus last year, but they need the reps and durability to really get solidified in their OLine play. Durability is key for Kyle's Offensive Line - vs Power and Strength in other offenses that depend on man blocking schemes. Unfortunately, only (I think) recently has he paid much more attention to durability. If he had paid attention to durability since 2017, in hindsight, he'd probably have a better record and possibly a Lombardi. Foerster is a good coach. You don't get to the NFCCG twice (He was a consultant on that 2019 team, I think) and not be a decent OLine coach. It remains to be seen if he can be a McKittrick/Scarannecha 2.0 though.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:
I have no worries for this OL as long as they stay healthy.
Probably can survive with Mckivitz. But if Jaylon Moore has to take any snaps it's KO for the offense.
Lets hope Brunskill can get healthy because he's the perfect wildcard backup who can play EVERY position.
I like the duo of Burford-Banks, and I believe Brendel will be ok. The same as Lance, it'll be a rollercoaster because of the inexperience. But it's a long season, and we should see improvements as the season progress, as long as they all stay healthy.

The NFL is on a point when the OL is getting behind the DL. We see good or great pass rushers come into the league every year. It's easy to name great pass rushers in Watt, Bosa bros, Watt bros, Hunter, Crosby, Chandler, Burns, Gary, Zadarius... and the interior guys, Donald, Defo, Fletch, Grady, Armstead, Heyward, Vea, etc, etc.

It's not as easy to name good OL. Besides big Trent, the top LT are always hurt (Tyron, Bakh, Ronnie, Armstead). Great Centers I can just think of Kelly, Ragnow and Creed, Jensen went down. Guards? Big Q, Shaq, Thuney and some other dudes. RT, Ryan, Braden, Wirfs and Lane.

When guys like Laken Tomlinson get overpaid we see how thin the OL market is. There's not one NFL team who has 5 good or great starters on their OL, everyone has at least 2 question marks even the ones with the top OL in the league.
I like the approach of developing home grown talent in the OL. Foerster is a good coach as long as he keeps his nose away from the drugs. But that requires time and patience, something many many fans lack.

I really think *durability* is the key in Offensive Line play. As NY85's tweet post said, the five guys have to play in unison. Take one piece off, and there is going to be some misfires. Last year, once McGlinchy was lost, the OLine play degraded until they had a couple of games under their belt and Tom Compton stepped up his OT game. Then the Line was average to good on the Left, and passable to OK on the right. Still wasn't an ideal OLine situation with no depth.

I think there is more depth of talent this year versus last year, but they need the reps and durability to really get solidified in their OLine play. Durability is key for Kyle's Offensive Line - vs Power and Strength in other offenses that depend on man blocking schemes. Unfortunately, only (I think) recently has he paid much more attention to durability. If he had paid attention to durability since 2017, in hindsight, he'd probably have a better record and possibly a Lombardi. Foerster is a good coach. You don't get to the NFCCG twice (He was a consultant on that 2019 team, I think) and not be a decent OLine coach. It remains to be seen if he can be a McKittrick/Scarannecha 2.0 though.

I remember when somehow the offense survived with Skule and Brunskill starting at OT. Jimmy once survived with Zane Beadles as his RT.
OL is by far the hardest unit to build. Unlike the DL you don't rotate them to keep them fresh, they play 100% of the snaps, and every snap is a hit from a 270+ pounds behemoth, unless it's garbage time on a blowout. the OL also needs chemistry which is only achieved by playing together.